Pex to Foam Board Stapler

[tmars]

I am getting ready to lay down foam insulation for my garage floor. I am going to put pex tubing in for heat and was curious if anyone has used the stapler to attach it to the foam board. I was checking the price and they are like $250. Thanks for any input

 

[Addrock]

I looked at this also, I ended up using screw in clips (about $21, three bags, 24 X 36).
http://www.mvsupply.biz/miva/mercha...Code=MS&Product_Code=ANC3MV050&Category_Code=

 

[keweenawbee]

You should be able to rent a stapler. The firm I purchased the staples from let me use one for a day as part of the deal.

 

[D.J.]

The way i understand it you want the pex in the middle of the pour not at the bottom.

 

[Jackfre]

Whichever way you go with your install, I would suggest thefollowing. Whenever I do a pour for a radiant slab, I'd put a few drops of oil of wintergreen and a bit of air pressure behind it. I'd then go around to the crew doing the pour and tell tham that if they smelled "this", and give them a whiff, they were to sing out so the tubing could be repaired. Can't be to careful!

 

[tdkkart]

Check your PM's, I have a stapler for sale.

 

[tmars]

they tell me it doesnt matter as long as you insulate, all of concrete warms anyway...am not sure

 

[stingry]

This company rents the stapler and has the staples also.

http://www.houseneeds.com/shop/pextubing/pex-tubing-fasteners-pex-accessories-main.asp

Stapling PEX to the foamboard is an accepted practice in the radiant floor heat industry. Concrete has very little insulation value and is actually a good conductor of heat. The barrier to heat transfer to the ground is the insulation board. I stapled my tubing to the EPS board and found it to be an easy way to attach the tubing and by doing so you know exactly where the tubing is depthwise. This is important to know when you make any kind of penetration into the concrete such as expansion sawcuts, etc.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Addrock]

I used the clips as stated before, it works great! Heating bill didn't go up significantly.

 

[nhmercracer]

The houseneeds is a reported attack site.

Only one listing, so it may be OK, however:

Beware of the link!

 

[stingry]

The houseneeds is a reported attack site.

Only one listing, so it may be OK, however:

Beware of the link!

Please explain? I ordered my PEX staples and stapler from them.

Cheers
Steve

 

[tmars]

The company I am ordering pex from is loaning me stapler if I buy staples from them. I hope to get started in 2 week thanks for all your input

 

[Fastback]

Research shows that elevating the pex in the slab increases efficiency, I would never ever ever staple to the foam. Don't cop out now, elevate the steel on chairs and attach the pex to that,just leave enough depth for the control joint cut depth.

 

[davesly]

I borrowed the stapler from my plumber. I then gave him my left-over staples. You should check around. You will want a plumber to stand-by during the pour, just in case a tube is accidentally damaged while they are pouring. You don't have much time to fix it before the concrete sets up.

 

[tdkkart]

I really wonder how many people have damaged their pex while pouring?? The stuff is tough, you'd really have to try to damage it, you certainly couldn't damage it with foot traffic.

 

[Friartuck]

Like others who have said it, elevate the Pex above the foam to be in the middle of the slab, not the bottom. Suggest zip tying to 6X6 reinforcing wire. The 6X6 wire has to be in the middle of the slab anyway, make good use of it. PEX on the foam creates a temp dead zone under it, no concrete gets under the PEX, which is an efficiency problem (like air in a hydronic heat loop). Zip tying to the wire ensures your loops go exactly where you want them and lays down during the pour. As mentioned PEX in a 300 foot roll is difficult enough to manage.

 

[Mellotron]

Whichever way you go with your install, I would suggest thefollowing. Whenever I do a pour for a radiant slab, I'd put a few drops of oil of wintergreen and a bit of air pressure behind it. I'd then go around to the crew doing the pour and tell tham that if they smelled "this", and give them a whiff, they were to sing out so the tubing could be repaired. Can't be to careful!

This is a very clever idea! Wouldn't air pressure alone work? I could only assume if the workers were witnessing what looks like a bubbling tar pit that can't be screeded, a leak would be present?

 

[tdkkart]

Like others who have said it, elevate the Pex above the foam to be in the middle of the slab, not the bottom. Suggest zip tying to the foam with perhaps some short plastic material that is about 2 inches tall. The job will be easier if you pre-place the zip ties before laying the foam down. Doesn't have to be perfect, just functional. Zip ties are now about $.02 each???? Alternate tying method if concerned about pinching foam too much.

WOW, that would be a colossal pain in the *** for more than 1 sheet of insulation.

Obviously the person that came up with that idea has never had to deal with 1000ft rolls of tubing before.

I really don't believe there is a significant difference in where the tubing is within a standard 4" slab. Maybe if we're talking 8-10", but not in 4".

 

[brewchief]

I've done both the staple down to foam and tie to wire mesh, the concrete guys managed to knock a bunch of the tubing loose on one of the staple downs, they struggled to get it to stay beneath the surface. The tie down to mesh does add the cost of the mesh but the tubing always seems to stay where it belongs.

I helped a friend do his floor and we tied 5400 feet of tube in two evenings, we started with rebar ties and then had to use zip ties when we ran out of the rebar ties, I could do 3 rebar ties to one zip tie.

We used 6 inch mesh on 2 inch chairs so the tube was in the middle of the 5" slab.

 

[tmars]

I thought about the chair thing, wouldnt the chairs get pushed into the foam insulation?

 

[stingry]

I thought about the chair thing, wouldnt the chairs get pushed into the foam insulation?

I would think so. When the concrete crew is pouring, they are not looking at where the rebar or PEX is, resulting in it being stepped on, tripped over, pulled to the surface, etc.

I agree with Tdkkart, I believe that placing the PEX on the insulation surface vs 2" higher will not make a significant difference in the heat transfer to the room in a 4-5" slab. Common sense and what I have ever learned about thermodynamics convinces me that this is true. Elevating the tubing may have a couple of advantages such as warming the slab surface faster and having the concrete/insulation interface temperature slightly lower, resulting in a lower temperature gradient between the slab and the ground. This may allow for slightly less heat transfer to the ground but I do not belive that it will be significant.

I believe stapling the PEX directly to the insulation offers these advantages which overshadow the slight disadvantages listed above. (1) very easy to install and (2) you are reasonably certain where the PEX is in relationship to the concrete surface, allowing for expansion sawcuts and shallow penetration of the slab for attaching wall plates, etc.


Cheers
Steve

 

[brewchief]

I thought about the chair thing, wouldn't the chairs get pushed into the foam insulation?

We never noticed any of the chairs getting pushed in and we did a lot of walking on the mesh. The main reason for the chairs in our case was to get the mesh in the center of the slab, the tube in the center of the slab was just a side affect, I really doubt you would see any performance difference because of it.

The staple down we did went OK where the pattern had lots of straight runs and the tube had a long distance between bends, where it had a lot of tight bends it was a different story, we used twice the staples and it still popped up in a bunch of places from the concrete guys walking on it.

Personally I would never do tube without mesh, at least when the concrete cracks the mesh will keep it from pulling apart.

When we did my friends barn we ended up with a 5" slab of 5000psi concrete with 6" mesh in the center of it sitting on 2" foam and from 1' to 6' of fill sand that was compacted with a vibrating roller in 4" lifts. It's been 3 or 4 years and there are only 1 or 2 short hairline cracks in the whole 50'x100' slab.

 

[powerhound]

I thought about the chair thing, wouldnt the chairs get pushed into the foam insulation?

I was thinking the same thing. Guys are walking around on the mesh which is supported by chairs while pouring. Also, seems like the mesh would not spring back up where not supported once the weight of the mud was on it. I'm trying to decide between mesh and rebar right now.

 

[BadgerBoilerMN]

Research shows that elevating the pex in the slab increases efficiency, I would never ever ever staple to the foam. Don't cop out now, elevate the steel on chairs and attach the pex to that,just leave enough depth for the control joint cut depth.

"Research"?

There are few applications (almost zero in residential) where a suspended tube will improve any aspect of a properly designed radiant slab. Yes, response time and potential output can be improved by suspending the tube (if you need optimum response time suspend away). However, a well designed radiant floor heating system incorporating weather sensitive controls, in the typical code insulated building, will not require enhanced response time and will have more than enough potential output to melt snow, let alone heat a steel building.

We staple tube to XPS every week for snow melting, radiant heating slabs in basements and additions here in Minneapolis, without complaint or incident.

Find a professional to perform a proper heat load before you buy anything.

http://www.badgerboilerservice.com/hrf.html

 

[JerrodGlover]

Old Thread but I am in the same boat needing to rent one or buy a second hand if someone has one they no longer need.

 

[pstnbly]

The way i understand it you want the pex in the middle of the pour not at the bottom.

The tubing goes in the bottom 3rd of the pour. That said there are thousands of radiant floors with the tubing stapled to the foam.

 

[kj_mustang]

Old Thread but I am in the same boat needing to rent one or buy a second hand if someone has one they no longer need.

Blue Ridge will rent one. I used it and it worked fine.
http://www.blueridgecompany.com/radiant/hydronic/501/rht-foam-stapler-and-staples

 

[davesly]

Another advantage of stapling PEX to the foam is that you get a good 3 inches of concrete above the tubes. This allows you to drill anchors into the floor for inside wall footers without needing to worry about drilling into the PEX.

I live in Iowa (very cold winters) and I am very happy with the heat quality from the floor. Remember that heat rises, and with 2 inches of foam below, there is no place for the heat to go but back up into the slab.

 

[Siteman25]

Make sure you size out your entire system prior to buying tube, to make sure all the parts work together property. I read about lots of DIY just doing a piece at a time, and they end up with a very inefficient system, tube size too small for the run lengths, circulating pumps that don't work well, too larger or too small hot water sources, etc.