PG&E service upgrade?

[Mad40er]

Hello all,

I am here to get some advice.

I got a permit to upgrade my electrical main panel and sub panel to 200a. Originally the house had a 100a main and it was wired for 120/240. We replaced the panels and passed inspection on the second try.

My wife contacted PG&E about getting our line to the the house upgraded from the pole for the 200a draw, and after getting a mouthful from the lady on the other end about not contacting them to get permission for the upgrade (wtf?) she then proceeded to tell my wife that it could cost $6K?!!

My wife was obviously shocked by this, and is rather upset at the thought of spending that kind of money, as am I. Now my wife is regretting buying a fixer upper

It surely cannot cost that? All I can think is that they think our house is only supplied with 120?

Any thoughts on what the cost might be from anyone who has had this done? We live in the South Bay in Norcal.

They are getting a service rep to call to discuss what needs to be done.

Any advice would be appreciated!

 

[mrb]

you are supposed to involve the power company when you do a service upgrade. How did you change your panels out without them shutting you off? Do you have a seperate meter base? Is the service overhead or underground? If overhead did you replace the riser, weatherhead, and service entrance conductors? As for the cost, depends on many factors -they need to dig a new underground line, your increased load is triggering a transformer upgrade, etc, etc.

It is also possible they may want you to move your new service. The process is normally this:
-you call poco and arrange appointment with service planner
-service planner comes out and gives you options on where you can put your service, tells you the mast height for overhead, things like that
-you go get permit, do the work, get final.
-arrange with poco for cutover to new service.

 

[Mad40er]

The upgrade was performed by a qualified electrician, it was done "hot" as we were living in the house and had no feasability for downtime (our power company are not known for quick service around here)

The riser, weatherhead, and service entrance conductors were all replaced up to current code and to the 200a rating.

I am thinking that the lady was just talking worst case scenario, but I guess we will just have to wait and see.

 

[JSBriggs]

The short answer is 'It depends'. Do you share a transformer, if not ant it needs to be upgraded, it gets expensive.? How far does the the line need to be run? overhead or underground? I added a 400amp underground service to my property (aprox 100') and it was about $4k. Because of a shared transformer, I did not have to pay for that upgrade, but it did needed to be done. That cost covered the panel and trench inspection, and a crew of 5 guys for about 3 hrs to pull the wire, hook it up, and swap out the transformer.

YMMV

-Jeff

 

[mrb]

whats a qualified electrician? Who pulled the permit, you or the electrician? If you pulled it, is it an owner builder or is the electrician listed on it? Does PG&E allow electricians to touch their drops? In so cal (overhead), for no downtime new service goes next to the old one and in one trip the poco disconnects the old one and connects the new one. Circuits from the old panel are extended to the new one. Maybe an hour of outage.

 

[JSBriggs]

On mine, when I asked PG&E about having a contractor (electrician) put the new service in, they said it was fine, but he needed $1 million in insurance.

-Jeff

 

[Mad40er]

I pulled the permit as a homeowner, and a qualified electrician friend did the install as a favor. The previous panel was deemed a "hazard" when inspected, so needed to be replaced.

This is above ground service, and the line is probably 30 feet to the pole from the weatherhead.

I guess the question is all about the transformer at the end of the day?

 

[MrMark]

I doubt you need to do anything. What makes you think the current wires from the power company are inadequate for your needs? I would leave well enough alone. I'm sure they aren't going to go around willy nilly replacing cables just because someone put in a new panel.

 

[MrMark]

whats a qualified electrician? Who pulled the permit, you or the electrician? If you pulled it, is it an owner builder or is the electrician listed on it? Does PG&E allow electricians to touch their drops? In so cal (overhead), for no downtime new service goes next to the old one and in one trip the poco disconnects the old one and connects the new one. Circuits from the old panel are extended to the new one. Maybe an hour of outage.

No offense, but that's a horrible way to do something. I wouldn't want anyone doing that anywhere near my house.

Why not do it right? You get Edison to cut the power in the morning, finish the upgrade/replacement by 1 or 2, call in the inspector for an afternoon inspection, and get Edison back to reconnect in the late afternoon. That is the correct process, and the Edison process.

 

[mrb]

I doubt you need to do anything. What makes you think the current wires from the power company are inadequate for your needs? I would leave well enough alone. I'm sure they aren't going to go around willy nilly replacing cables just because someone put in a new panel.

its not so much that you put in a new panel, its if you added a ton of load (i see BIG problems for the pocos as EVs are widely adpoted. They cant deal with everyone having a 10kw charger in their garage...

 

[mrb]

No offense, but that's a horrible way to do something. I wouldn't want anyone doing that anywhere near my house.

Why not do it right? You get Edison to cut the power in the morning, finish the upgrade/replacement by 1 or 2, call in the inspector for an afternoon inspection, and get Edison back to reconnect in the late afternoon. That is the correct process, and the Edison process.

how i stated is the way its done over here. All the houses have the original 50 amp meter/breaker panels embedded in the stucco. Instead of tearing out the side of the house, new surface mounted panel is installed near the old service. Old service is turned into j box and old circuits are routed into new panel. Final inspection, then poco removes old drop and installs new drop to new service, a dozen or so wirenuts in the old service and youre back in business.

 

[MrMark]

how i stated is the way its done over here. All the houses have the original 50 amp meter/breaker panels embedded in the stucco. Instead of tearing out the side of the house, new surface mounted panel is installed near the old service. Old service is turned into j box and old circuits are routed into new panel. Final inspection, then poco removes old drop and installs new drop to new service, a dozen or so wirenuts in the old service and youre back in business.

Yeah, I know you were just stating how it is done. It is still a horrible method and one that is not done by anyone with any level of sophistication. It is really only done on old shitters by electricians chasing a quick payday.

Using this half-*** method the house now has two penetrations through the roof and two huge ugly boxes (the new one surface mounted no less) on the side. All so someone could be "back in business" in an hour. I think I would rather be without power for a day than have a second ugly box on the side of my house in frankenstein arrangement complete with an old meter base with cover on it, than look at that mess for 20 years. That's just me though.

You don't have to tear out the side of the house. You know that. You do have to break out the **** stucco and pull the old panel though. It should take no more than 4 hours to break it out, remove the old panel and re-fit the wires. Make sure your new panel works with the length of the existing wires.

No reason to do half-*** when it's easy to do it the right way.

 

[MrMark]

its not so much that you put in a new panel, its if you added a ton of load (i see BIG problems for the pocos as EVs are widely adpoted. They cant deal with everyone having a 10kw charger in their garage...

I don't see anywhere where he said he was putting in a ton of new load. I see he put in a new panel. Those overhead drops are sized for the average load in the neighborhood. He should be fine unless he is going to start growing pot. If he is using so much power that he is going to burn up a drop in free air than I imagine they will upsize him when it burns through and falls down.

 

[billsr4]

Put an amp meter on your incoming lines at the weatherhead and see what you are pulling.

I have been a master electrician and a lineman for 30 years in New Orleans,LA

They can load that transformer and wire up to 150% of its rated amperage.

Also while you have everything on in the house you can check the incoming voltage.


Don,t loose any sleep over this the lady on the phone just wanted to be important.

 

[Mad40er]

Thanks for all the insight guys.

I dont think my load will be too high as of right now.

We just pulled out or electric stove and replaced with a gas stove, and that was our biggest draw.

We are considering AC in the future, but I dont think we will ever exceed 125 Amps draw from the POCO at one time, and that is if we had everything in the house turned on and the AC on. Maybe exceed that if I do that and have a compressor and welder running at the same time?

It is interesting that different regions seem to do it a different way.

As far as I understand it, the drop needs to be the same gauge as the service entrance conductors. Is this correct?

 

[Charles (in GA)]

As far as I understand it, the drop needs to be the same gauge as the service entrance conductors. Is this correct?

In my limited experience, POCO's don't seem to think twice about having undersized drops. If its a really huge upgrade, say 60 to 200 amp or 200 to 400 amp, yes, they will upgrade the drops, but many times the drops were replaced for other reasons in the past and were oversized for the existing service, in anticipation of upgrades.

If the loads didn't increase, I won't bother with a change in the service drops, not worth the money or the hassle. And yes, you do run into POCO people who think they are in charge.

Charles

 

[Alchymist]

Yeah, I know you were just stating how it is done. It is still a horrible method and one that is not done by anyone with any level of sophistication. It is really only done on old shitters by electricians chasing a quick payday.

Using this half-*** method the house now has two penetrations through the roof and two huge ugly boxes (the new one surface mounted no less) on the side. All so someone could be "back in business" in an hour. I think I would rather be without power for a day than have a second ugly box on the side of my house in frankenstein arrangement complete with an old meter base with cover on it, than look at that mess for 20 years. That's just me though.

You don't have to tear out the side of the house. You know that. You do have to break out the **** stucco and pull the old panel though. It should take no more than 4 hours to break it out, remove the old panel and re-fit the wires. Make sure your new panel works with the length of the existing wires.

No reason to do half-*** when it's easy to do it the right way.

Not all service panels are on the outside. When we bought our current house, the electrical was a mess. 100 Amp service panel (small) filled with #14 wire on 20 and 30 amp breakers, water heater wired with no ground, dryer circuit with mid-air flying splice, and much more. Put new weatherhead and meter base alongside old one, new service panel on new backing board. Power company cut in new service after inspection of new panel. I then removed the old weatherhead and meter base and cut off old service entrance cable and rerouted it to the new panel on a 60 amp breaker, and then started a complete rewire to the new panel. Out of service about 2 hours. The PoCo took one look at the drop and installed new triplex.

Course here permit not required, only inspection before hookup, makes it easy.

 

[billsr4]

The power co around here will use #4 triplex for a 100 amp service and a 1/0 for 200 amp.

The triplex is aluminum conductors and is in free air so the rating is higher.

I have a 3200 sq ft house and 2 garages with a total of 11 tons of a/c and the rest of the house is total electric .

The power co feeds my house with a 1/0 service drop from a 15 kv tramsformer. 200 amp service.

 

[GarageEnvy]

I rarely poke my head into the electrical forum but the PG&E topic caught my attention from the home page. I'm not an electrician but I've had to deal with PG&E 3 times for panel upgrades and relocation. I know some of your frustrations. First go-round was for a panel upgrade from 100 to 200 amps and I was specifically told PG&E had to do the disconnect. The licensed electrician pulled the permit and waited for PG&E to disconnect. He did the conversion in 8 hours and they re-connected the same day. Inspector signed off on it. The cost for that panel upgrade was $1,500. No new wires were required and my house was built in the 50's. I'd suspect the old box and Zinsco breakers were original.

The second time involved relocation of the panel and this is where it got tricky. Long story involving many layers of PG&E but not particularly relevant to your problem.

The 3rd was the relocation from the temporary to permanent and this was a 200 amp panel. Originally the architect spec'd a 400 amp panel but PG&E said that required a different drop. Both the electrician and the PG&E service rep said there was a subsidy available for that based on a certain number of feet for free. Neither could confirm a specific amount and I never pursued it because I ended up going with a 200 amp panel and a subpanel on the advice of the electrician. The electrician who did that relocation said he had a working relationship with the PG&E workers and they could be sensitive about who touched the drop. However, he called the guy in the truck and asked him about doing the disconnect himself. With the OK of the guy in the field he did it. PG&E did the reconnect. The cost of that box was about $2,000 because it involved a significant amount of re-wiring. In all cases the drop was either the same length or shortened so no additional wiring was needed. I looked into undergrounding the drop when I did this and the cost was about $4,000.

 

[MrMark]

Not all service panels are on the outside. When we bought our current house, the electrical was a mess. 100 Amp service panel (small) filled with #14 wire on 20 and 30 amp breakers, water heater wired with no ground, dryer circuit with mid-air flying splice, and much more. Put new weatherhead and meter base alongside old one, new service panel on new backing board. Power company cut in new service after inspection of new panel. I then removed the old weatherhead and meter base and cut off old service entrance cable and rerouted it to the new panel on a 60 amp breaker, and then started a complete rewire to the new panel. Out of service about 2 hours. The PoCo took one look at the drop and installed new triplex.

Course here permit not required, only inspection before hookup, makes it easy.

Yeah, in SoCal and I assume NoCal, the combination meter socket/load center plastered on the side of the house rules the day, even on new construction. Yet, if you ask anyone if they want the breakers on the outside of their house, they will almost universally tell you NO. Especially women.

You get this huge (I'm guessing 60X14.5) panel on the side of your house. With the method stated above, you now have two of those monsters hanging off the side of your house. Not particularly nice, nor the sign of a nice house. Kind of like running your pipes on the side of the house.

The reason it is done is lack of understanding by the owner and cost. Cost for the combo meter main/load center 32/42 unit is as low as 120 dollars. A proper reverse or equavalent set up with meter main and inside load center is at least 350 dollars.

 

[MrMark]

BTW, Edison does not have to follow the NEC. The drops are way undersized based on what the NEC would require so to respond to the poster the power company does NOT use the same ampacity wire as you do for your portion of the drop. The drops are in free air, which provides cooling, and much higher rating. The poco also takes into account load diversity, meaning that you are not going to be 100 percent on one leg to get your power consumption.

 

[Mad40er]

I rarely poke my head into the electrical forum but the PG&E topic caught my attention from the home page. I'm not an electrician but I've had to deal with PG&E 3 times for panel upgrades and relocation. I know some of your frustrations. First go-round was for a panel upgrade from 100 to 200 amps and I was specifically told PG&E had to do the disconnect. The licensed electrician pulled the permit and waited for PG&E to disconnect. He did the conversion in 8 hours and they re-connected the same day. Inspector signed off on it. The cost for that panel upgrade was $1,500. No new wires were required and my house was built in the 50's. I'd suspect the old box and Zinsco breakers were original.

The second time involved relocation of the panel and this is where it got tricky. Long story involving many layers of PG&E but not particularly relevant to your problem.

The 3rd was the relocation from the temporary to permanent and this was a 200 amp panel. Originally the architect spec'd a 400 amp panel but PG&E said that required a different drop. Both the electrician and the PG&E service rep said there was a subsidy available for that based on a certain number of feet for free. Neither could confirm a specific amount and I never pursued it because I ended up going with a 200 amp panel and a subpanel on the advice of the electrician. The electrician who did that relocation said he had a working relationship with the PG&E workers and they could be sensitive about who touched the drop. However, he called the guy in the truck and asked him about doing the disconnect himself. With the OK of the guy in the field he did it. PG&E did the reconnect. The cost of that box was about $2,000 because it involved a significant amount of re-wiring. In all cases the drop was either the same length or shortened so no additional wiring was needed. I looked into undergrounding the drop when I did this and the cost was about $4,000.

BTW, Edison does not have to follow the NEC. The drops are way undersized based on what the NEC would require so to respond to the poster the power company does NOT use the same ampacity wire as you do for your portion of the drop. The drops are in free air, which provides cooling, and much higher rating. The poco also takes into account load diversity, meaning that you are not going to be 100 percent on one leg to get your power consumption.

Some great info here. I am still waiting to hear back from the POCO rep who needs to come out and see if they need to do anything on their end. 24 hours and still waiting...(And they wonder why they have a bad reputation for promptness. )

I actually think they will only need to put their tag on the anti tamper ring on the meter and be done with it.