Phillips #2 Screwdriver Shootout

[Bolster]

Do you use the JH Williams often? How would you rate the tip?

Tip on Williams ... So far so good. No complaints. It's still a relatively new driver so time will tell. It has some sort of anti-camout impressions in the tip.

...there's got to me some way of making an incredibly strong tip that won't wear like that.

It's a tradeoff between hardness and toughness. They tend to go in opposite directions when making steel. For instance, I think some of the Bosch 1/4 hex bits are too hard for powered work, because they'll snap off pretty easily when driving a screw. But make them tougher, and they'll be softer, more easy to deform. The way they solve the problem in the knife world (where you also want very hard but very tough steel) is to make blades out of very expensive exotic steels. I'm beginning to think that most screwdriver blades just aren't made out of expensive enough steels at this point...steels that can be brought to high hardness while retaining toughness.

So in my mind, the "answer" is very high quality interchangeable tips. That's why I'm placing my bets on the PB Swiss bit holder and their P#2 tip. PB Swiss is reported to use high quality steel at high hardness.

I'm also going to get some of those S-O P#2 tips, the ones with the ACR. I have hopes they will be a quality steel at high hardness too.

For me, the jury is still out on the usefulness of the ribs. I am curious if ACR only becomes a factor in a loose fitting bit.

 

[MrMark]

Here is a picture I snapped of a few different but similar tips.

All of the ones I took pictures of are ACR styled tips. I was under the impression that any bit that was listed as ACR was licensed through The Phillips Screw Company, but based off what I saw, I am thinking this is not true. The three bits in the picture are (From right to left) Snap On Instinct Driver, Snap on Bit, and a no name screwdriver that is a licensed ACR design. Remarkably the Snap On tips are different on their drop in bits, vs their actual screwdrivers. The drop in bit reminds me more of the profile of a Wiha screwdriver where it seems to be narrower.

Great shot! The SO ACR does look like a Wiha.

The SO ACR bit bites like crazy (like the Wera lasertip) and it is durable. The Instinct driver and the new replacement blades, not so much. You know those troublesome receptacle screws that need the PH2/SL driver, well the SO ACR bit locks them down. I am actually disappointed in the SO new P2 blades. I know some may disagree, but I have proof that when it comes to SO screwdrivers, they just don't make em like they used to.

I have to get one of those short guy SO ACR bits. I have read great things about them on here, and I think the SO dealers here recommend them.

So, my shootout was won by the SO ACR bit and I am eager to try the short version of the same.

 

[MBeaty]

It's a tradeoff between hardness and toughness. They tend to go in opposite directions when making steel. For instance, I think some of the Bosch 1/4 hex bits are too hard for powered work, because they'll snap off pretty easily when driving a screw.

I'm also going to get some of those S-O P#2 tips, the ones with the ACR. I have hopes they will be a quality steel at high hardness too.

One thing that would be optimal is if they could do some sort of case hardening on the surface of the bits. This would give them a very hard exterior to resist deforming, yet the interior of the steel part would retain the necessary toughness to prevent the blades from snapping off. This would be hard to achieve though given the very small section sizes of the steel on the business end of the bit.

In the picture I posted, the wear on the Snap on screwdriver can be easily seen where the ACR ridges are worn off. My dad however has had one of the blades on his #2 Snap On screwdriver break off. I would tend to think that Snap On has their heat treating down to an artform, but judging on how the part broke, I would be willing to bet they his particular driver was a little too hard. I have not had any of these problems with mine though.

I wish I was back in college and I could order several companies bits and do a hardness test on them. That would reveal some interesting information about the debate with hardness vs. toughness. It would be neat to see which companies bias one parameter more than the other.

 

[SSCustoms]

My go-to is my SO ratcheting screwdriver with ACR bit, but if I have a stubborn screw that requires some torque, I grab a Klein out of my toolbox. They just seem to fit and hold a screw the best.

 

[993James993]

I prefer disposable DeWalt bits mounted on my 18v Milwaukee drill. As other's have stated, my experience with phillips head screwdrivers has not been favorable. When a bit is worn I toss it. I'll probably order some PB Swiss bits based on this thread.

 

[Stick Figure]

No Apex bit? probably the best fitting bits i have used. even the 30+ year old ones i have fit a screw great. I'll see if i can snap a pic or two tomorrow when i'm at work.

 

[JASTECH]

Hmm, I have enjoyed this P#2 series very much indeed!
May I add to this onslot? I have used many philips drivers over the years and quality has declined. The only brand that I rely on now is
EZ-Power, I have been able to drive screws in walnut, cherry and firewalls with out slipping. The screw will either loose it's head or be driven to the depths!

Thanks, JASTECH

 

[superautobacs]

Bolster,

I don't know if you've read through the thread that talked about JIS standard cross-recess screwdrivers, but I do believe there's some valuable information there that's relevant to the topic at hand here. The link goes to page 4 on that thread: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28491&page=4&highlight=JIS+cross-recess


I wrote somewhere else in another thread about how screwdriver manufacturers usually have to conform to some standard, as well as manufacturers producing fasteners. I think it's safe to say that there's, cheap, sub-standard production of fasteners in the market. That means, even if a screwdriver is manufactured with exacting dimensional profiles, whether it's according to some industry standard or not, the the screw its driving may not share that same level of standard.

[EDIT] Here's the post: refer to the text in bold

 

[mrholeshot]

That Pittsburg Pro is the best screwdriver you can buy for $1.00 (1.49 regular price) very impressed with these.

 

[Indy_500]

That Pittsburg Pro is the best screwdriver you can buy for $1.00 (1.49 regular price) very impressed with these.

They sure are comfy for $1! Still, the stanleys are my favorites. Dont' know what it is about them, i guess it's because i've been using them since i could walk. I kinda stole em outta my dads toolbox since he dont use em anyways.

 

[kwhitelaw]

im curious why some many people are stripping out drivers and screws.?? I've been running the same SO #2 driver for years, and the only screws that ever give me trouble are radio screws that hold the brackets on certain '90s nissans... for those, the ratcheting SO driver with an ACR bit gets em out..

but ive never stripped a screw that want already jacked up from someone prior...

that being the case, why bother with cheaper screwdrivers? throw them away and keep 1 or 3 great ones.

 

[Bolster]

[EDIT] Here's the post: refer to the text in bold

Cool, thanks for that.

I've been running the same SO #2 driver for years,...

Wow, that's amazing. I think one reason I have trouble is, I drive a lot of hardened screws, dry-wall & woodworking style. One cam-out on a hardened screw and it takes a toll on the driver.

 

[kwhitelaw]

Cool, thanks for that.



Wow, that's amazing. I think one reason I have trouble is, I drive a lot of hardened screws, dry-wall & woodworking style. One cam-out on a hardened screw and it takes a toll on the driver.

hmm, hard to say. my primary profession for 10+years was car audio, so I was driving drywall screws daily.. I remember chewing up a SO phillips driver on a nissan maxima radio bracket (if you've never had the displeasure of removing them, imagine a gorilla on steroids applying them at the factory) when I didn't have a good grip and I slipped. ended up twisting the screw also, so I had to drill it out..

 

[Stick Figure]

aren't the Japanese vehicle radio screws the JIS anyway? pretty sure they are and thats the biggest reason you guys are having trouble.

i forgot to snap the pics of the Apex bits i have at work sorry.

 

[rebrewer]

One of those tips in the tips pic (bottom right with lines perp to the shaft) is not a standard #2 Phillips, is a #2 ACR. A have a set of these from Snap-on I bought in the late 80's? with blue handles. I don't know why the anti-cam out thing didn't catch on. They work pretty well. Maybe one of the Snap-on dealers here knows.

 

[kwhitelaw]

aren't the Japanese vehicle radio screws the JIS anyway? pretty sure they are and thats the biggest reason you guys are having trouble.

i forgot to snap the pics of the Apex bits i have at work sorry.

not sure. its only ever been certain '90s nissans (mainly maximas) that have the problem. usually works to tighten the screw ever so slightly, then unscrew it...

glad I dont install anymore though, I'll admit

 

[rebrewer]

OK, I completely missed the post about ACR above...

Also, the Wiha drivers come in a variety of styles. Check this out:

http://wihatools.com/indexes/indxphil.htm

 

[mrholeshot]

I own probably 50+ #2 Phillips (at least 8 of them are Snap-On) and others from various makers. I have 1 #2 Snap-On Phillips that is the one that gets used 95% of the time. I bought it new when the lime green hard handles first came out (1995?) and all those years it has had the same blade and removed thousands of screws.

 

[Solid Lifters]

IMO, nothing out performs Wiha Dura Bit bits. They never 'cam-out.'

 

[olds394]

There are P2 bits that have a blunt tip....like a P3 has.

Someone posted a link to them on the Snap-On web site.

If anyone has the link I'd be grateful.

Seems to me they were called hi-torque or something like it.

 

[Stick Figure]

not sure. its only ever been certain '90s nissans (mainly maximas) that have the problem. usually works to tighten the screw ever so slightly, then unscrew it...

glad I dont install anymore though, I'll admit

I know the Toyota ones are, as they even have the dot on them to signify it. Luckily those are also an 8mm hex. I don't remember the Nissan's of that area off the top of my head.

 

[beelsr]

So, I got the old Craftsman cushion grip screwdriver set a while back. Made by Pratt-Read. Black rubber overmold grip covers. 5 slotted that have held up fairly well and 3 phillips. The P1 eventually got ratty enough to go back to tool heaven and be reborn so off to sears i went.

But the mean sears man won' take back a single bad screwdriver when they don't sell the P1 individually (they sell a P2 individually). My offer of "take the screwdriver i need out of the pack and we'll both be happy" didn't work. I explain that the other screwdrivers I have are fine and like them and only want this one returned. He doesn't budge. So, I try a different store. No dice. I tried a different store in a different state. Same story...

Fast forward to last week and I warranty a P2 that was getting to be grungy. I notice that the grips are a little bulkier and Western Forge now makes these. Thinking of Bolster and his testing, I decide to do some testing of my own....

I took a 3" drywall screw and clamped it in my vise (it's a stout old Reed (thanks, bmwpower!) screw was going NOwhere...). Put the old PR and start to turn. No torque reading on my arms but the tip snapped off much quicker than I thought it should. So, I chucked up another screw and tested the other PR P2 cushion driver I had. It snapped pretty much at the same torque - as measured by my highly trained and calibrated arm.

Finally, I put another screw in and tried the new WF P2 cushion grip. I couldn't get the tip to snap off. I ended up twisting the drywall screw - a freaking #10 drywall screw. Had a few ugly cam-out moments but the WF tip held up just fine. When I was done, I rubbed off the debris with a brass brush and the tip looked new.

I wish I could think of a way to hook my Torque-O-Meter up to a screw driver and do some "real" testing....

No pics. Just go to Sears or the website and look at a new one. That's what it looked like. Oh, and I took all 8 drivers in and replaced them earlier today. After that test, the PR drivers don't satisfy me anymore....

 

[Monte]

some more PH2 bits for reference:


Wekador, Belzer, Wiha, Wera, Bosch

 

[Bolster]

A-HA! See, that Wiha has the "protruding snout" issue same as their hand drivers! A slight concavity along the edge.

I've also wondered if the Bosch sold here weren't raked back too far, making the tip too acute. Notice how "streamlined" the Bosch is compared to the others.

 

[wxm]

My recent addition:

 

[Jononon]

One of my newest drivers, a Wiha, has turned out to be a great disappointment. After 3 screws, the tip is showing significant wear.

Which model is it?

 

[wxm]

not sure. its only ever been certain '90s nissans (mainly maximas) that have the problem. usually works to tighten the screw ever so slightly, then unscrew it...

glad I dont install anymore though, I'll admit

This remind me about replacing the Fuel Filter Regulator on the 95 Nissan Maxima. After hearing so many people striped the screw, I went out and bought a new Channellock screw driver (cheap but new!), and was able to remove the screw without any issue. Up to this point, I still don't understand why Nissan did not use a nut instead.

 

[Jononon]

A-HA! See, that Wiha has the "protruding snout" issue same as their hand drivers! A slight concavity along the edge.

This is the same shape applied to all the bits (only the middle three are aligned sufficiently to be meaningful):



Both the Bosch and the Wiha have 'rounded hips', but I can't perceive a concavity

 

[Bolster]

Run your thumbnail along the edge of the Wiha, you may be able to feel a bit of a "recurve." I can feel it on my Wihas and another poster was able to feel it on his. It's subtle, but it's the opposite direction (concave as opposed to straight or slight convex) of many other manufacturers, which is a bit odd.

I'm not sure that's what's causing my Wiha cam-out issues, it was an early hypothesis. Now I'm thinking it has more to do with "fit" ie, the bit filling up the screw slots, and the Wiha possibly being a bit thinner or just smaller overall.

On a second squint, I may not see the recurve on your Wiha bit. The left side looks like it, but it may just be bit wear I'm seeing. Because I dont' see the same attenuation on the right side, it looks straight.

Honestly, at the end of the day, I don't know why I'm camming with my Wihas. It's a mystery.

 

[otanica]

All the CNC machine i fiddle with at work have the dots on the phillips screws, never knew why they chewed up so often. Now i know.

Thanks
Brad

 

[Monte]

Honestly, at the end of the day, I don't know why I'm camming with my Wihas. It's a mystery.

cheap screws

 

[Solid Lifters]

cheap screws

Yep. Even the best driver can't get past a cheap screw.

I've found that whenever a screwdriver cam's out for more than an eigth of a turn, I stop and go get my Wera 3/8" Zyklop ratchet with the 1/4" bit attachment and use my Wiha Dura Bit bit. These things have so much 'bite' that I can hold my Wera ratchet in place, completely upside down, without holding on it at all. The ONLY thing preventing that Wera ratchet from fallling down is the gripping power of the Wiha Dura Bit.

 

[Monte]

here a test device which i made for PZ2 screwdrivers/bits

 

[MrMark]

That's very cool Monte.

 

[Bolster]

After more than two weeks of waiting for my new PH/SL Wihas to show up from http://www.wihatools.com/, I sent an email asking if there was a problem. No response.

Next day I called, gave the customer rep my order number, and after 5 minutes of searching, she told me the only thing she saw on my order was the need to charge me $9 for shipping. They had somehow lost the actual order for the tools themselves.

(Gee, if an empty order shows up, with instructions to "ship me the pliers only if they are made in Germany," with $9 shipping, wouldn't ya think to call or email the customer to see if there was a problem? Two weeks ago?)

I informed her I didn't want to pay a shipping charge on nothing, asked her how they had lost my order, got the usual "You must have made a mistake in ordering" (always the customer's fault, you know) response. I asked her how it could be my fault for not ordering any tools, if they had me in the system for $9 of shipping? (No response). So I politely asked her to cancel the order, and the shipping. She suggested I call next time I wanted to order, and not use the website.

(Play This for Appropriate Sound Effect)

So I have nothing to report yet. However I did score a pair of PB Swiss PH/SL drivers from Amazon which haven't arrived yet. So perhaps I'll have something to report in a few.

 

[ATTappman]

After more than two weeks of waiting for my new PH/SL Wihas to show up from http://www.wihatools.com/, I sent an email asking if there was a problem. No response.

I don't know why, but out of the hundreds of online orders for all kinds of stuff that I've made in the past ten years, the only people I ever had any trouble with were importers of hand tools.

 

[MrMark]

I don't have mine yet either. I ordered through Chad's at the same time. They were supposed to be drop shipped from Wiha USA because Chad's hates Wiha (for crazy reasons) and doesn't stock it, but he still sells it. Chad's just takes forever to send anything.

 

[SMKS]

I have a few to add.

Starting from the top going clockwise:
Craftsman Professional
Blue Point
Witte Maxxpro Plus
SK Facom

 

[TheGrooveking]

I thought the qwerty key arrangment was not specifically intended to slow the typist down, but to seperate the keys most frequently used in succesion. In other words, to reduce the number of hang-ups, not specifically to slow things down to the point where there would be less hang-ups.
I vote that we get rid of it. That and phillips screws. And ESPECIALLY slotted screws.

You are referencing QWERTY Design for the wrong reason. QWERTY was developed to allow the swing of the character hammers from hitting each other on a typewriter, it wasn't for the fingers but to compensate for the mechanism.

TheGrooveking

 

[Bolster]

Starting from the top going clockwise:
Craftsman Professional
Blue Point
Witte Maxxpro Plus
SK Facom

If those were used about the same amount, then it's Blue Point FTW!