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Phillips heads and cam out

Coach James

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I occasionally read on here that Phillips head screws were designed to cam out under "large amounts of torque. I did some looking on the net and found some exercepts from “One Good Turn - A natural history of the screwdriver and the screw” by Witold Rybczynski. In it states that the designer, Henry F. Phillips, marketed them as a way to have screws not cam out. Nobody may care but me, but I thought it was interesting.

I've tried four times to attach the relevant page, from the book, to no avail.

Coach
 
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HamAndEggs

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I've found like above that the Snap-on and Williams bits don't cam out much, and I've also had good luck with Milwaukee Shockwave bits too
 

noid

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Two fold;

1. Quicker acquisition of tool to head by assembly line workers
2. Less likely to over tighten when using power tools (cam out).
 

Signing off

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They are like women.
Desirable yet fickle to no end.

When faced with the choice of Philips or a slotted screw, it's a no brainier. Philips in a hot second and the slotted is pitched to the garbage.
Tap-cons have seen the light and are converting to Torx.
 

BTL-A4

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It's interesting to see that these were NOT supposed to cam out, but everyone seems to think they were. Even without power tools, I could cam them out and it drove me nuts.

I had an issue with cam-out on Phillips heads. I bought a Vessel screwdriver and solved that. The JIS bits don't cam out.
 

jayemm

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My understanding is the Phillips head was used extensively on aircraft skin and panels because it would cam out before overtightening and risking damage.
 

four.cycle

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F-22

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Vessel is awesome.


I think a big factor for phillips is also how cheap it is to make. A stamping press for a Robertson shape can't last as long. The strong taper in a phillips does make it cam out - but it also makes it so much easier to stamp in the shape during manufacturing. The sharp edges of a robertson a particularly problematic in this regard (e.g. allen has way wider angles, torx only has curves... but only the robertson has 90 degree angles). The angles in the robertson drive also add notching effects that weaken the fastener - so you don't see robertson machine screws at all, they're exclusively used for light duty self-tapping wood screws (and even for that, solely north america, and even then mainly just canada). Meanwhile old engines were assembled with phillips (even e.g. any old Honda motorcycle engine used JIS phillips shape extensively...). The round and tapered shape of a phillips is actually very good as far as force distribution goes.

In the end, it's often not a contest of which drive design can transmit more torque even after being repeatedly used numerous times. It's about which design can transmit the sufficient amount of torque for the application, while costing the least amount of money (and also looking fine - e.g. robertson looks like something made by a blacksmith, not a well manufactured and engineered solution...).


BTW if you have a nice hollow ground screwdriver that fits very tightly into a slotted screw, it's a very reliable type of a drive. The problem is that the fit is typically sloppy and normal tapered screwdriver ruins the slot at the edge...
 

kaymccampbell

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I used to have a lovely Phillips bit that had a diamond impregnated tip, from a company long gone, since I have never seen them again. You could file things with it, if you were so inclined. Under heavy pressure and load it would not cam out. It worked wonders. Then some shitgofer swiped it. Now I use the DeWalt bits.
 

RPH

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I used to have a lovely Phillips bit that had a diamond impregnated tip, from a company long gone, since I have never seen them again. You could file things with it, if you were so inclined. Under heavy pressure and load it would not cam out. It worked wonders. Then some shitgofer swiped it. Now I use the DeWalt bits.
Still available!

CC31469F-6605-4D8F-A9B9-447F1E00CA92.jpeg
 

jayemm

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I've had good success with the Bosch, made in USA, bits with the 'anti-cam out' ribs. Had to use pliers once to remove screw from the bit.
 

jgeoffr

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It's interesting to see that these were NOT supposed to cam out, but everyone seems to think they were. Even without power tools, I could cam them out and it drove me nuts.

I had an issue with cam-out on Phillips heads. I bought a Vessel screwdriver and solved that. The JIS bits don't cam out.

it even glows in the dark:

you'll never know what you were missing until you try one.

trust me on this one, coach.

Vessel is awesome.

X4 on the Vessel screwdrivers!!!
 
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Roert42

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My brother picked up a set of the Husky diamond tip screw drivers. They were very brittle and I broke both the #2 and one of the slotted ones. Just ripped the teeth off the driver while trying to turn a seized up fastener in an electrical panel.

I would recommend to staying away from the husky brand ones at HD.
 

dnschmidt

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That write up is not my understanding. The cam out was intentional due to the fact that Ford did have the use of air powered screwdrivers but at that time these installation tools did not have clutches as modern drills and power screwdrivers do so the Phillips was specifically chosen to cam out to allow this to happen so that stripping out of whatever the screw was going into wouldn't happen. If that's not the case then Robertson would have clearly been the answer as before Torx came along it was clearly the best non-camout design in the world.
 

laser3kw

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My biggest "ah-ha" moment is when realized that there are different types of Phillips head screw geometry. I now look carefully at how the bit engages the slot to see if the contact is full.
 

Bubba Fett

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Compared to standard slot screwdrivers, Phillips was a godsend. Slotted screws are easy to make, as are the drivers, but the drivers slip out the sides easily. Hollow ground drivers are the best for fitment. Keystone and Cabinet drivers don't fully engage the screw and can damage them. This is why gunsmithing sets have so many hollow ground drivers or bits. On firearms, there are a wide ranged of sizes, and replacement screws can be hard (or impossible) to come by.

Plus standard drivers only have two positions available, where as Robertson and Phillips have four, making it easier to get the driver into position. Allen and Torx have 6, which is even better, but above that, the law of diminishing returns kicks in.

Snap-on and a few others use Phillips ACR tips which have little ridges that grab the screw. Diamond tip drivers work pretty well but both of these can damage a screw.

Also note that the Phillips standard has changed a few times. A modern Phillips is closer to JIS than older style Phillips drivers.
 

cannuck

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The US would most likely have gone Robertson as Ford wanted that to allow ability to hold screw on driver to speed production. When he couldn't buy out Robertson, he trashed the market by lobbying to bar foreign designs from the military supply chain. Phillips was the benefactor of Ford's spite for being spurned. Yes, they had many advantages over slots and Robertson also has a small taper (to allow for production tooling to work best) that will also "cam out" at high loading. What we have to remember when reading either Robertson or Phillips' own declarations is these guys were salesmen in a day when most sales claims were even more ridiculous than what we see today. They would probably say just about anything to hawk their goods. I find it surprising that it took almost another century to get around to designing a much better drive system (not a big fan of Allen or even double square).
 

AreBeeBee

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For what it's worth, I second the Vessel screwdriver praise (I have #1, 2, and 3) in post #8. (I'll wait for more reviews on the glow-in-the-dark models!) They do a good job on gripping the Phillips heads.

Partly because of the cam-out issue with Phillips, I'm switching over to Robertson for wood screws as I really like the firm grip a Robertson screwdriver has. But those screws are hard to find and getting harder, as they have been mostly turfed out of the deck screw market by torx. However my wife's Canadian and we do family visits there a couple times a year. These will be buying trips for me.
 

Cleave

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I read a while back the Phillips interface was designed for mechanized installation on assembly lines so the driver auto centers and doesn't slip out the side like flatheads. In a machine they can control the pushing load onto the screw and the rotational speed.
 

neophyte

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Compared to standard slot screwdrivers, Phillips was a godsend. Slotted screws are easy to make, as are the drivers, but the drivers slip out the sides easily. Hollow ground drivers are the best for fitment. Keystone and Cabinet drivers don't fully engage the screw and can damage them. This is why gunsmithing sets have so many hollow ground drivers or bits. On firearms, there are a wide ranged of sizes, and replacement screws can be hard (or impossible) to come by.

Plus standard drivers only have two positions available, where as Robertson and Phillips have four, making it easier to get the driver into position. Allen and Torx have 6, which is even better, but above that, the law of diminishing returns kicks in.

Snap-on and a few others use Phillips ACR tips which have little ridges that grab the screw. Diamond tip drivers work pretty well but both of these can damage a screw.

Also note that the Phillips standard has changed a few times. A modern Phillips is closer to JIS than older style Phillips drivers.
Slotted screws back when they were hand made, routinely had the slot cut into the screwhead using a “knife file”.
Knife file are wedge shaped in cross section, producing a tapered slot.
Screwdrivers, or turnscrews, as they used to be called, made with tapered flat heads, fit the tapered slots made with knife files excellently.
You can literally just push a tapered flat head screwdriver into an old screw whose slot was cut with a knife file, and the screwdriver blade will wedge itself in place, like a Morse Taper in a Morse Taper socket on a drill press.
If a screwdriver has too fine a tip to fit the screw, you just file the tip back slightly.
The tapered sides on “Keystone” shaped tapered flat head screwdrivers can also be easily filed if the screwdriver is too wide.
The design worked really well for the old hand slotted screws.

I’m not sure when gunsmiths started using very narrow slots on screws, and when they started cutting those slots with something closer to a saw blade rather than a file, resulting in narrow, parallel slots.
For regular screws used for cabinetmaking and carpentry, the change to non-tapered slots on screws seems yo have happened around the time screws started to be mass produced by machines.
The parallel slots are generally a worse design.
The hollow ground screwdrivers for those slots are weaker, and don’t serve as good as a general purpose tool.

Incidentally, taper ground slotted screwdrivers will still work decently with parallel slotted screws, if used right.
If the tapered tip is too narrow, you file the tip back slightly till it just doesn’t bottom out.
The better tapered slotted screwdrivers like Facom usually have small grooves on the tip, that I think are cut with a checkering file of some type. (usually finer in the line than what was typical on similar US made screwdrivers)
A tapered screwdriver that is sized right will stick out of a horizontal turned slot on a screw, that is screwed into a wall. At least I’ve done this with Facom slotted screwdrivers that might have been 12” long.
 

HalfTonTom

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I used to have a lovely Phillips bit that had a diamond impregnated tip, from a company long gone, since I have never seen them again. You could file things with it, if you were so inclined. Under heavy pressure and load it would not cam out. It worked wonders. Then some shitgofer swiped it. Now I use the DeWalt bits.
Shitgofer? Is that a gopher that burrows beneath the outhouse?
 

Bubba Fett

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Slotted screws back when they were hand made, routinely had the slot cut into the screwhead using a “knife file”.
Knife file are wedge shaped in cross section, producing a tapered slot.
Screwdrivers, or turnscrews, as they used to be called, made with tapered flat heads, fit the tapered slots made with knife files excellently.
You can literally just push a tapered flat head screwdriver into an old screw whose slot was cut with a knife file, and the screwdriver blade will wedge itself in place, like a Morse Taper in a Morse Taper socket on a drill press.
If a screwdriver has too fine a tip to fit the screw, you just file the tip back slightly.
The tapered sides on “Keystone” shaped tapered flat head screwdrivers can also be easily filed if the screwdriver is too wide.
The design worked really well for the old hand slotted screws.

I’m not sure when gunsmiths started using very narrow slots on screws, and when they started cutting those slots with something closer to a saw blade rather than a file, resulting in narrow, parallel slots.
For regular screws used for cabinetmaking and carpentry, the change to non-tapered slots on screws seems yo have happened around the time screws started to be mass produced by machines.
The parallel slots are generally a worse design.
The hollow ground screwdrivers for those slots are weaker, and don’t serve as good as a general purpose tool.

Incidentally, taper ground slotted screwdrivers will still work decently with parallel slotted screws, if used right.
If the tapered tip is too narrow, you file the tip back slightly till it just doesn’t bottom out.
The better tapered slotted screwdrivers like Facom usually have small grooves on the tip, that I think are cut with a checkering file of some type. (usually finer in the line than what was typical on similar US made screwdrivers)
A tapered screwdriver that is sized right will stick out of a horizontal turned slot on a screw, that is screwed into a wall. At least I’ve done this with Facom slotted screwdrivers that might have been 12” long.
I've noticed that electrical fittings are not parallel, and Klein keystone drivers fit perfectly, which makes sense. US and European drivers are slightly different in size and shape, likely to better fit the screws in their respective regions.

I've been known to file a standard screwdriver for a better fit. I usually file the sides so that the driver is no wider than the intended screw, so it doesn't damage the surrounding material. Then I file the very tip to get a nice clean edge. I usually follow with sandpaper to smooth out the surfaces a bit. As of yet, I have not filed the flats to make a parallel tip, but I may give that a try on a cheap driver to see how that turns out.

I have used a needle file to fix a poorly made Phillips driver, or to improve the fit. That takes some patience. File a tiny bit, and then try it with several Phillips screws. I did get a WF driver to hold itself in a wall plate screw, so I guess that's something.
 

bonneyman

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Use valve lapping compound on tight - or slightly damaged - phillips screws. Got the tip from the forum, and have used it a few times with decent success.
It's like a poor mans diamond-tip driver. I keep the little jar of lapping compound handy and dip my phillips tip in it between screws when dealing with repeated bad screw heads. Seems to help.
 

matthew

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A stamping press for a Robertson shape can't last as long. The strong taper in a phillips does make it cam out - but it also makes it so much easier to stamp in the shape during manufacturing. The sharp edges of a robertson a particularly problematic in this regard (e.g. allen has way wider angles, torx only has curves... but only the robertson has 90 degree angles). The angles in the robertson drive also add notching effects that weaken the fastener - so you don't see robertson machine screws at all, they're exclusively used for light duty self-tapping wood screws
Huh? Robertson machine screws are a thing - the biggest in the below photos is 1/4-20.

I’m a fan of external hex drive as first choice. But I don’t see an issue with Robertson. Screw heading machines have been able to effectively make them for 100 years. The real reason Phillips is ubiquitous is because it’s ubiquitous. It is the standard, and even though it’s worse, the problem wasn’t seen to be worth the trouble / cost of changing. The problem / advantage of incumbency… (which is also why automotive largely stuck to Phillips)

And fwiw, XZN has even more 90 degree angles in it…
 

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Skyman

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This has been an interesting discussion.

Depending on what the fastener is, and what it's fastening, if it's stubborn, I'll often reach for my hand impact. It can be very persuasive, and I haven't had one cam out yet.
 
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