Photo British Standard sockets

[RossinSD]

This is related to a post I just put up on Britool combo wrenches. Have any of you seen Proto sockets with a BS suffix on the part number indicating they are British Standard Whitworth? They don't seem to be offered any more and I have had these for over 50 years now. They are 12 point with a nice finish that has held up as I have worked on a number of British motorcycles. What do you think, are these rare? Did other higher line companies like Snap-On make BSW sized tools?

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Those are probably late 50s to 60s era. I have some blackhawk and snapon and bonney. I am pretty sure all of the major tool companies offered them just not that common in usa. Here's some 1950 snapons

 

[2oolhound]

WELCOME to GJ!

Dang! I just noticed you're asking about Proto. I got thrown off by the mention of Britool 1st. Since I've gone to the trouble to find these Britool images I'll post them anyway. I'll have to dig around, I think I have a few Proto whitworth tools.

Here are some of my Britool:

1/4" Drive





1/2" Drive



3/8" Drive



I should have a few more Britool sockets around. Oldtulguy is right, most manfacturers had a line of BS/Whitworth tools stemming back from the war plus a lot of British machinery was imported wordwide that used british fasteners. Germany had quite a bit of real nice Brit tools. My favorite whitworth that is loaded in my box for use is Snap-on, Hazet and some Stahlwille but I can't pass up buying sets like the 1/4" set above.

 

[RTM]

I have a couple of snap-on wrenches and a socket from someone else that are whitworth

 

[DAustin]

Sears Craftsman made (Whitworth) back in the day. Whitworth tools and British Standard fit the same size bolt head. It's the thread that's the difference between the two. Whitworth is one size smaller than BS. 7/16W=1/2BSF, 1/2W=9/16BSF.

 

[snapmom]

Some Snap on whitworth sockets.

 

[matthew]

At least from what shows up when people post photos of their Whitworth stuff, and what I’ve noticed on a handful of looks on eBay, I suspect Proto is relatively uncommon.

I think Snap-On still offers a basic assortment. Ironically enough, I suspect Snap-On with newer date codes may be some of the rarest Whitworth tools…

I don’t think there is a time I’ve seen a post by SnapMom where I’m not interested/impressed/just a little envious. My compliments on your collections, SnapMom! (Is the whole drawer W, including the tap and die set?)

 

[DAustin]

Snap on still sells some British Standard wrenches.

Snap-on Store

shop.snapon.com

 

[goldtang]

I still have sockets that are British standard. made by Sidchrome Australia I bought them in 1979 first your of my apprenticeship and Set of open end ring spanner all my large BS went to a mates son when he started his apprenticeship

 

[Jim C.]

Sears Craftsman made (Whitworth) back in the day. Whitworth tools and British Standard fit the same size bolt head. It's the thread that's the difference between the two. Whitworth is one size smaller than BS. 7/16W=1/2BSF, 1/2W=9/16BSF.

Yes, from approximately 1960 to 1962, Sears did offer Craftsman branded Whitworth tools to include a set of ten 1/2” drive sockets. What I found was that the 1/2” drive sockets and ratchet were often too big to use. I was tinkering with a 1955 MG and the space was tight. 3/8” and 1/4” drive tools were much easier to use and more suited to the limited space issues. The Craftsman set also included eight wrenches, again they were a bit too long and not always convenient. I ended up using shorter Proto wrenches, a smattering of 3/8” and 1/4” drive Snap-On sockets when I could find them, and a couple sets of 3/8” and 1/4” Koken sockets (which I was very impressed with).

Jim C.

 

[bmwrd0]

Not picture handy, but I have the same six piece set of BS marked Proto sockets, and another that are Whitworth marked. They show up in the fifties and sixties catalogs, along with combo wrenches, of which I am still looking for a few. I mostly use them on British bicycles, such as my Raleighs and Hercules.

I also have Snap-on, Koken, Britool, Spearpoint, King ****, and any other BS/Whilworth I come across.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Here's a Dunlap set circa 1960

 

[Dave455]

Almost all the major U.S. manufacturers produced wrenches and socket wrenches in British Standard sizes over the years. If not before the war, then certainly during it.

I have sockets by Blackhawk (purchased new by my Grandfather pre war), and Snap On. Wrenches by Blackhawk again, Blue Point (prior to being bought by Snap On), Billings, Armstrong, and even a couple of Proto, but the Proto seem to be less common.

Just to clarify - the head of a Whitworth bolt (later called BSW) is one size larger than the head of a BSF bolt of the same size. So… an older wrench has both sizes marked, the same wrench fitting a smaller BSW bolt than BSF.

During the war (in fact before) the smaller sizes were standardised, so many post war tools are simply marked “BS”. That size is still the bolt size not the bolt head size, but can be BSF or BSW.

There are still a lot of B.S, fasteners out there. Although the BSF and BSW threadforms are obsolescent, BSP (pipe threads) are probably the most common worldwide, and these use Whitworth hex sizes.

 

[Dave455]

If you, or anybody else, needs to buy new BS tools, KoKen make probably the best sockets, and the range is considerable - 6 point and 12 point, deep’s if needed, 1/4 drive, 3/8 and 1/2, and even universal sockets.

Snap On make probably the best wrenches, but the range is limited now (although they continued to produce sockets much later than you might think).

I tend to favour Elora for wrenches. The quality is very good, especially on the smaller sizes.

 

[Doubled33]

My set of snap On British standard. I got these in the late 90’s off the SO truck.

0,1,2 are labeled BA. Then 5/16 to 9/16 labeled BS. All 3/8 drive.

The date code is some style of 7. All have the same code.

My 1/4” drives are King ****.

They get used on my British Cars.

My wrenches are Diowdat and labeled W for sizes.

I have a few SO wrenches older logo labeled BA

 

[DAustin]

Almost all the major U.S. manufacturers produced wrenches and socket wrenches in British Standard sizes over the years. If not before the war, then certainly during it.

I have sockets by Blackhawk (purchased new by my Grandfather pre war), and Snap On. Wrenches by Blackhawk again, Blue Point (prior to being bought by Snap On), Billings, Armstrong, and even a couple of Proto, but the Proto seem to be less common.

Just to clarify - the head of a Whitworth bolt (later called BSW) is one size larger than the head of a BSF bolt of the same size. So… an older wrench has both sizes marked, the same wrench fitting a smaller BSW bolt than BSF.

During the war (in fact before) the smaller sizes were standardised, so many post war tools are simply marked “BS”. That size is still the bolt size not the bolt head size, but can be BSF or BSW.

There are still a lot of B.S, fasteners out there. Although the BSF and BSW threadforms are obsolescent, BSP (pipe threads) are probably the most common worldwide, and these use Whitworth hex sizes.

"Just to clarify - the head of a Whitworth bolt (later called BSW) is one size larger than the head of a BSF bolt of the same size. So… an older wrench has both sizes marked, the same wrench fitting a smaller BSW bolt than BSF."

I think you got this backwards.

British Whitworth Tools and British Standard Size Reference Table

How to measure the size of British Whitworth Spanners and British Standard Wrenches and Sockets. This table can help you measure Whitworth spanner sizes. For example 7/16 Whitworth to mm size. You can find the Whitworth to metric conversion for any British size wrench...

www.samstagsales.com

 

[d42jeep]

Here are some Proto sockets that I used to have.
-Don

 

[Dave455]

"Just to clarify - the head of a Whitworth bolt (later called BSW) is one size larger than the head of a BSF bolt of the same size. So… an older wrench has both sizes marked, the same wrench fitting a smaller BSW bolt than BSF."

I think you got this backwards.

British Whitworth Tools and British Standard Size Reference Table

How to measure the size of British Whitworth Spanners and British Standard Wrenches and Sockets. This table can help you measure Whitworth spanner sizes. For example 7/16 Whitworth to mm size. You can find the Whitworth to metric conversion for any British size wrench...

www.samstagsales.com

Nope, that’s correct!

It’s all down to which way you look at it..!

The bolt head of a Whitworth bolt is (or was) one size larger than the same size BSF bolt.

Thus, if you look at a wrench, it will be marked one size in BSF, and and one size smaller in Whitworth!

To put some numbers on it, a 3/8 BSF bolt has a bolt head measuring .600”. A 3/8 BSW bolt head measures .710” - one size larger.

So, your .600“ wrench is marked “3/8 BSF” and “5/16 BSW” - one size smaller for the BSW.

It takes some thinking about if you didn’t grow up with it all!

 

[DAustin]

I'm confused, if you look at the chart it looks like BS is one size larger than Whitworth. Also, the photo shows a wrench marked 3/8W - 7/16BS. What am I missing, I'm sure you must be right living in the Old Country like you do. Please explain it to a confused Colonial.

British Whitworth Tools and British Standard Size Reference Table

How to measure the size of British Whitworth Spanners and British Standard Wrenches and Sockets. This table can help you measure Whitworth spanner sizes. For example 7/16 Whitworth to mm size. You can find the Whitworth to metric conversion for any British size wrench...

www.samstagsales.com

 

[Farmer J.]

Here's the full explanation:
For the 'British' sizes, the nut/bolt size corresponds to the spanner marking (i.e. a 1/2" W spanner fits a Whitworth bolt with a shank/thread diameter of 1/2"). The original Whitworth sizes were standardised in 1841 by Sir Joseph Whitworth (1803-87) and featured a significant head oversize to accommodate the crude tolerances of the production methods of the day. In 1908 the standard was revised to include the option for a finer thread and became BSF (British Standard Fine) and BSW (British Standard Whitworth). The BSW bolts/nuts use the same coarse thread as the original Whitworth proposal, which is suited to soft or coarsely crystalline materials (e.g. aluminium, cast iron), while the BSF bolts have the same thread profile but a finer cut (i.e. higher TPI value) and, with an adequate length of thread engagement, provide a stronger fastener and better vibration resistance for high tensile materials

The BSF head size was one step smaller than BSW (e.g. a 1/4" BSW bolt was the same head as a BSF 5/16" bolt, etc, avoiding the need for new tools) up to 1924 but there was demand for a similar BSW version so the "British Standard Whitworth (Small hexagon)" standard BSWS was introduced in 1929 in B.S. 129 (also known as "Auto-Whit" presumably from its use in the automotive industry). During the Second World War the standards were revised again as "War Emergency B.S. 916 : 1940" as an austerity measure to reduce steel consumption and this resulted in the normal BSW head sizes being reduced by one step, basically making the BSW = BSWS = BSF head size, also bringing them closer to the size range commonly used today:

• Across flats jaw size = bolt diameter * 1.5 (approximately, only the BA standard has a simple fixed relationship factor at 1.75)

It is not clear post-WW2 if manufacturers returned to the older standard for BSW but it is unlikely as most changes were driven by the adoption of the American and metric systems. The British Standard B.S. 192 of 1924 states that spanners should be marked with both the BSW and BSF sizes, but by 1954 the revised B.S. 192 is referring to "Whitworth large hexagons" so the implication is the WW2 emergency change was permanent and the larger size unusual. That 1954 revision was using the example of 'BS' to refer to the BSF/BSW size and 'W' for the original large hexagon size. Thus you will see spanners marked along the lines of '1/4 W 5/16 BS' indicating the jaws are sized for a 1/4" large hexagon Whitworth bolt, or the next step up at 5/16" for BSF/BSW and that is probably of 1954 or later. However, you sometimes see them marked just as 'BS' and they are the typically the smaller BSF (and WW2-era BSW size), but also I have seen some just with 'W' and referring to the large (original) hexagon size.

Taken from:

Spanner Jaw Sizes

Useful guide on spanner to nut/bolt relationships, and the selection and use of spanners and socket sets

www.crawford-space.co.uk

 

[DAustin]

Here's the full explanation:
For the 'British' sizes, the nut/bolt size corresponds to the spanner marking (i.e. a 1/2" W spanner fits a Whitworth bolt with a shank/thread diameter of 1/2"). The original Whitworth sizes were standardised in 1841 by Sir Joseph Whitworth (1803-87) and featured a significant head oversize to accommodate the crude tolerances of the production methods of the day. In 1908 the standard was revised to include the option for a finer thread and became BSF (British Standard Fine) and BSW (British Standard Whitworth). The BSW bolts/nuts use the same coarse thread as the original Whitworth proposal, which is suited to soft or coarsely crystalline materials (e.g. aluminium, cast iron), while the BSF bolts have the same thread profile but a finer cut (i.e. higher TPI value) and, with an adequate length of thread engagement, provide a stronger fastener and better vibration resistance for high tensile materials

The BSF head size was one step smaller than BSW (e.g. a 1/4" BSW bolt was the same head as a BSF 5/16" bolt, etc, avoiding the need for new tools) up to 1924 but there was demand for a similar BSW version so the "British Standard Whitworth (Small hexagon)" standard BSWS was introduced in 1929 in B.S. 129 (also known as "Auto-Whit" presumably from its use in the automotive industry). During the Second World War the standards were revised again as "War Emergency B.S. 916 : 1940" as an austerity measure to reduce steel consumption and this resulted in the normal BSW head sizes being reduced by one step, basically making the BSW = BSWS = BSF head size, also bringing them closer to the size range commonly used today:

• Across flats jaw size = bolt diameter * 1.5 (approximately, only the BA standard has a simple fixed relationship factor at 1.75)

It is not clear post-WW2 if manufacturers returned to the older standard for BSW but it is unlikely as most changes were driven by the adoption of the American and metric systems. The British Standard B.S. 192 of 1924 states that spanners should be marked with both the BSW and BSF sizes, but by 1954 the revised B.S. 192 is referring to "Whitworth large hexagons" so the implication is the WW2 emergency change was permanent and the larger size unusual. That 1954 revision was using the example of 'BS' to refer to the BSF/BSW size and 'W' for the original large hexagon size. Thus you will see spanners marked along the lines of '1/4 W 5/16 BS' indicating the jaws are sized for a 1/4" large hexagon Whitworth bolt, or the next step up at 5/16" for BSF/BSW and that is probably of 1954 or later. However, you sometimes see them marked just as 'BS' and they are the typically the smaller BSF (and WW2-era BSW size), but also I have seen some just with 'W' and referring to the large (original) hexagon size.

Taken from:

Spanner Jaw Sizes

Useful guide on spanner to nut/bolt relationships, and the selection and use of spanners and socket sets

www.crawford-space.co.uk

Thanks, that helped. This is why I love Metric stuff. I've still got all my Whitworth/British Standard stuff, but I don't know if I'll ever use them again. Unless I find an old British bike or car, I can't live without.

 

[Dave455]

I'm confused, if you look at the chart it looks like BS is one size larger than Whitworth. Also, the photo shows a wrench marked 3/8W - 7/16BS. What am I missing, I'm sure you must be right living in the Old Country like you do. Please explain it to a confused Colonial.

British Whitworth Tools and British Standard Size Reference Table

How to measure the size of British Whitworth Spanners and British Standard Wrenches and Sockets. This table can help you measure Whitworth spanner sizes. For example 7/16 Whitworth to mm size. You can find the Whitworth to metric conversion for any British size wrench...

www.samstagsales.com

It depends on whether you are looking at a fastener of constant size, or a wrench of constant size.

If you are looking at the fastener of constant size (by which we mean the thread size - say 3/8 BSW vs 3/8 BSF) then the BSW had the bigger head (in this example, .710 vs .600).

Now, if you take a wrench of constant size (say .600) it fits a 3/8 BSF, but the only BSW size it fits (BSW having bigger heads) is one size (thread size) smaller (5/16 BSW).

 

[Dave455]

Here's the full explanation:
For the 'British' sizes, the nut/bolt size corresponds to the spanner marking (i.e. a 1/2" W spanner fits a Whitworth bolt with a shank/thread diameter of 1/2"). The original Whitworth sizes were standardised in 1841 by Sir Joseph Whitworth (1803-87) and featured a significant head oversize to accommodate the crude tolerances of the production methods of the day. In 1908 the standard was revised to include the option for a finer thread and became BSF (British Standard Fine) and BSW (British Standard Whitworth). The BSW bolts/nuts use the same coarse thread as the original Whitworth proposal, which is suited to soft or coarsely crystalline materials (e.g. aluminium, cast iron), while the BSF bolts have the same thread profile but a finer cut (i.e. higher TPI value) and, with an adequate length of thread engagement, provide a stronger fastener and better vibration resistance for high tensile materials

The BSF head size was one step smaller than BSW (e.g. a 1/4" BSW bolt was the same head as a BSF 5/16" bolt, etc, avoiding the need for new tools) up to 1924 but there was demand for a similar BSW version so the "British Standard Whitworth (Small hexagon)" standard BSWS was introduced in 1929 in B.S. 129 (also known as "Auto-Whit" presumably from its use in the automotive industry). During the Second World War the standards were revised again as "War Emergency B.S. 916 : 1940" as an austerity measure to reduce steel consumption and this resulted in the normal BSW head sizes being reduced by one step, basically making the BSW = BSWS = BSF head size, also bringing them closer to the size range commonly used today:

• Across flats jaw size = bolt diameter * 1.5 (approximately, only the BA standard has a simple fixed relationship factor at 1.75)

It is not clear post-WW2 if manufacturers returned to the older standard for BSW but it is unlikely as most changes were driven by the adoption of the American and metric systems. The British Standard B.S. 192 of 1924 states that spanners should be marked with both the BSW and BSF sizes, but by 1954 the revised B.S. 192 is referring to "Whitworth large hexagons" so the implication is the WW2 emergency change was permanent and the larger size unusual. That 1954 revision was using the example of 'BS' to refer to the BSF/BSW size and 'W' for the original large hexagon size. Thus you will see spanners marked along the lines of '1/4 W 5/16 BS' indicating the jaws are sized for a 1/4" large hexagon Whitworth bolt, or the next step up at 5/16" for BSF/BSW and that is probably of 1954 or later. However, you sometimes see them marked just as 'BS' and they are the typically the smaller BSF (and WW2-era BSW size), but also I have seen some just with 'W' and referring to the large (original) hexagon size.

Taken from:

Spanner Jaw Sizes

Useful guide on spanner to nut/bolt relationships, and the selection and use of spanners and socket sets

www.crawford-space.co.uk

Farmer J - you are 100% correct! Few are!

Out of interest, I have quite a few “Auto Whitworth” in my stores. I knew the change was pre war, but didn’t realise it went back to 1924. Most are marked “AUTO” to avoid confusion.

Yes, I think the 1954 change simply regularised what had already taken place in industry. I have numerous post war BSW fasteners, and none have the large hex.

DAustin - ignore this, it will only confuse further. Basically, post war, everything uses the BSF size. (with a couple of exceptions I will omit for clarity!)

 

[Doubled33]

Anyone care to explain BA. 0 is big and 6 is small. That’s all I know.

Is it tied into the above comments?

 

[Dave455]

Anyone care to explain BA. 0 is big and 6 is small. That’s all I know.

Is it tied into the above comments?

BA is easy.

Think of it as the British equivalent of the Unified “numbered” series.

There are some subtle differences, one being that in BA threads the smallest number is the biggest thread. The other is that the thread angle is 47.5 degrees.

One further difference is that, shock horror, BA threads are actually metric (although their dimensions are expressed in Imperial units).

A 0 BA thread is 6mm, with a thread pitch of 1mm.

Each successive size is a fixed proportion smaller (.88 if memory serves) so as the screw size reduces, so does the increment to the next size.

Sizes generally range from 0 to 16 BA, but even in instrument work, one rarely sees smaller than 10 BA. Even sizes are preferred, so 2,4,6 and 8 BA will cover most engineering needs.

That’s about it really.

The only point of note is that when the U.K. adopted Unified threads in the late 50’s, we never adopted the Unified numbered series, and BA continued. So you will find BA threads in much newer products than BSF / BSW.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Some bonney 3/8 drive whitworth sockets