Planishing Hammer and Rivet Hammer same thing?

[DMucci]

I'm looking to buy a planishing hammer for metal shaping and was wondering if I could just make a stand for one of the rivet hammers I have. Are they different tools?

 

[Billythekid1]

I think it will work with the right tip ofcorse

 

[DMucci]

I think it will work with the right tip ofcorse

Thanks for the response, but I'm looking for a more assuring answer before I go build a stand for it.

Does anyone know for sure if these are the same tools?

 

[FJ 432]

Planishing hammers typically have a mirror finish. Rivet hammers are used to help shape the rivet.

They can be used the same but working metal you want a smooth finish and using it on rivets may scar it.

 

[DMucci]

Planishing hammers typically have a mirror finish. Rivet hammers are used to help shape the rivet.

They can be used the same but working metal you want a smooth finish and using it on rivets may scar it.

I have enough rivet hammers to dedicate one to the planishing stand.

 

[i_be_moose]

You can use a Rivet Gun to power a planinshing hammer. I used a 4X to power mine. Benefit with the Rivet Gun is easily teasable trigger. I fabed a bellcrank and used a bike brake cable to activate it.

 

[yhprum]

you can use a riveting hammer to planish but now neccesarily use a planishing hammer for riveting. Generally speaking the rivet gun has more mass in the hammer part of the gun.

 

[DMucci]

you can use a riveting hammer to planish but now neccesarily use a planishing hammer for riveting. Generally speaking the rivet gun has more mass in the hammerpart.

Internal to the gun or the exterior hammer head? I was thinking (without doing much research yet) I could get a planishing head for the rivet gun.

 

[yhprum]

The internal parts of the gun. Rivet guns are rated in Xs 2X, 3X 4X ect. Higher hits harder.
There are specialized planishing hammer heads like chicago pnuematic that hit harder as you press on a pedal. They would be best. Once I tried riveting with a good zip gun amd made a mess of it because they lacj control.
If you google the yard store in Wichita and search flush rivet sets you will find rivet gun tooling that can be used for planishing.

 

[DMucci]

Hey folks, so I'm just getting back into this project as I now NEED a planishing hammer to finish up some fenders I'm making.

These are the guns I have to choose from:

Sioux Tools 270A - 3X, 2000 bpm, 8 cfm @ 90psi
ATI ATC 3X - 2160 bpm, ? cfm
Browntool T-3X - 2100 bpm, 9 cfm @ 90psi

They all accept the same .401 head and recoil springs it looks like.

My concern is the air consumption. My compressor is rated at 6.2 cfm @ 90psi. Considering I will be planishing and not riveting would the air consumption be less? It looks like the consumption on the harbor freight planishing hammer is only 4.0 cfm @ 90psi, which I assume is hitting a lot lighter. (They don't sell it anymore FYI)

Also, anyone know a good place to get upper and lower dies for not too much money? Trying to keep this build cheap.

 

[K13]

I have never seen cheap aftermarket die sets for planishing hammers they all seem to run about $45.00 and up per die for any aftermarket ones as they are all professional quality pieces.

HF still lists their planishing hammer: https://www.harborfreight.com/pneumatic-planishing-hammer-94847.html as a clearance item. For $60 it's a no brainer if you could still find one in a store. I have a similar(probably the exact same model) one I bought from a company in Canada and it does a pretty good job.

Eastwood sells the same unit but they are asking $218.00 for theirs.

I would assume you would use more CFM planishing as you are running it constantly not just in short bursts like a rivet gun.

 

[DMucci]

Unfortunately there isn't a HF within 100 miles that has one in stock still. They're gone.

I'm only finding the $45+ per die prices too. Is there really nothing cheaper? How is it HF can sell the whole thing for $60 and I can't find lower dies cheaper than $45 a piece?

Between the upper and lower dies and tubing I'm already over $300.

 

[K13]

Unfortunately there isn't a HF within 100 miles that has one in stock still. They're gone.

I'm only finding the $45+ per die prices too. Is there really nothing cheaper? How is it HF can sell the whole thing for $60 and I can't find lower dies cheaper than $45 a piece?

Between the upper and lower dies and tubing I'm already over $300.

Because they are cheap Chinese made units. The ones you will buy after market are for professional use so they have been individually made polished and hardened. It's the same reason you can buy an Complete English wheel with 6 anvils from HF for $300 and you pay $600-$1000 for an upper wheel and a set of anvils for pro level stuff. You have basically answered you own question when you can buy a cheap unit for $150 already to go why would anyone pay more to build their own and then use cheap crappy dies with it. When tools are that cheap the idea of building your own would be to make something better not pay more to make the same thing.

 

[sevt_chevelle]

Unfortunately there isn't a HF within 100 miles that has one in stock still. They're gone.

I'm only finding the $45+ per die prices too. Is there really nothing cheaper? How is it HF can sell the whole thing for $60 and I can't find lower dies cheaper than $45 a piece?

Between the upper and lower dies and tubing I'm already over $300.

Because the difference in quality between a HF unit and a Clay cook unit costing 2500 dollars is friggin huge.

The cheap dies are just that cheap, not fully heat treated tool steel, they don't maintain a constant shape.

The frames on the HF english wheel and P-hammers are flimsy at best. When you have a weak frame you lose the energy to perform work due to the frame twisting, the wheels and dies will also lose alignment.

Planishing hammers are not meant to shape panels they are meant to planish them or smooth them.

These are a few shots of my Milwaukee Planishing hammer. Its the real deal one of the most sought after P-hammers ever made. It is NOT a 3x or 4x air rivet gun it has no more power than your typical short stroke air hammer because its not meant to shape metal but smooth it.

If you want to shape metal then you need to step up your game and either buy or build something like this. Figure out what you want out of your machine, cause your typical P-hammer motor and frame won't be shaping much metal.

https://www.tinmantech.com/products...s/complete-units/model-1000-straight-post.php

 

[dnschmidt]

My view on this is simple. Ron Covell is the god of metal shaping. I buy whatever he recommends. Cost a lot of money to go this way but you always end up smiling at the results.

 

[oldgoaly]

Ok let's break it down a little, the stroke and psi of the air motor tell how hard it will hit. Now the surface area of the dies touching the surface of the metal and the stiffness/flex of the frame will give you an idea on how far the metal moves. Plannishing hammer is for plannishing / smoothing of a panel, some stretching and if the metal is in the proper form can be shrunk (hammered into itself to thicken) Much easier to stretch than shrink!
So what is your goal? do you have a shot bag or stump? these are good for stretching, then how do you shrink? A plannishing hammer is good for blending these areas into a smooth panel?

More stretch = stiff frame, harder hitting air motor, smaller surface contact areas on dies.

No one tool can do it all the best.

 

[DMucci]

I've got a shot bag, teardrop mallet, e-wheel and various body hammers and dollies. I'm making some motorcycle fenders right now and can only get them so smooth on the wheel before they're over-stretched. This is the reason I'm looking to pickup a planishing hammer.

My take on it is I'll do it on the cheap to get my feet wet and when I've learned enough to recognize the flaws in the cheap machine I'll just make my own from better parts. I bought the Northern Tool version yesterday for $155 shipped.

Sidenote: I've read that frame rigidity in a planishing hammer is not desirable. Something about it stalling out the air hammer when trying to knock down high spots/tucks. It would make sense to me that a less rigid frame would be good for someone looking to just planish while a rigid frame (and maybe harder blows from something like a rivet hammer) would be better to also have the ability to stretch.

Maybe building that will be a down the road goal.

I've taken classes shaping on a power hammer before and it was nice to be able to feather it for planishing...however one slip up on the pedal was a bit catastrophic Of course that thing hit HARD. Harder than a rivet hammer.

Here's a little video of maybe the 5th or 6th fender I made before I realized I needed a different tool. You can still see the waviness from the mallet blows and that was after stretching it too thin on the wheel trying to smooth it out.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/zGuQ_QbPeW4" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[oldgoaly]

you have a good grasp on the basics, down side to p-hammers they use a lot of air and the noise is loud! Vintage ones have gotten expensive! Upside they are fast in the right hands. I was in the process of building a large stationary phammer and found a pullmax. That project stopped and is becoming a medium sized ewheel. A pullmax or other reciprocating machines are gap sensitive more like an ewheel for planishing. The heavy frames deaden the sound you can actually hold a normal conversation while using one 99% of the time.

 

[DMucci]

Mmmmm Pullmax. I used one for a few days during my shaping class and loved it. If I could afford one I'd buy that instead for sure.

 

[K13]

You should be able to get a panel dead smooth on a decent English wheel without stretching at all. You don't need to apply pressure to smooth a panel but you do need the proper flats on the anvil wheels which cheap wheels do not have.

 

[DMucci]

You should be able to get a panel dead smooth on a English wheel without stretching at all. You don't need to apply pressure to smooth a panel.

Maybe mine just has too much flex. It's not exactly a pro wheel.

$700ish from Woodward fab.

 

[K13]

Again you don't need lots of pressure to get something smooth, pressure is for stretching, so flex shouldn't play into it. You need patience more than anything. It takes a long time. Pick an anvil that has the same contour as the panel you are trying to smooth and use light pressure and run it through over and over again until it is smooth.