Planning a Garage, some questions

[Mvpjeff106]

Hey everyone, I've been researching endlessly to build a garage/shop for my NJ property. I originally intended on building a stick built garage to match my newly constructed house. I have settled on a size of 50x40 with 14' walls. While pricing, I assumed the price of stick built and was "ok" with what it was going to cost. The more research I did on this forum and other similar forums seems that there are many different opinions on stick built vs pole barns. For the first time, I started looking at Pole Barns and educating myself. Being un-educated on Post Construction, I learned a lot the past week. I also am having a hard time realizing the significant cost savings.

Anyway, while strongly now considering a Pole Barn, I have a few questions:

1.) Shingled Roof with 2' spaced trusses was quoted at $5k over Metal Roof. Is it worth it? I was assuming the 30 year architectural shingle roof will match my house better and hold up to the seasonal weather here better. Plus I like the idea of 2' trusses and OSB sheathing. But.. I have read where others say the metal roof is better. I'm not against a metal roof but fear that the screw gaskets will eventually leak. Any input?

2.) Interior Finishing is a must. I will be using part of the garage for my commercial vehicles as well as some rare antique car storage. The antique cars must be in a heated environment. I don't like the look of OSB interior. I think the only interior look I would want to look at is Sheetrock that I can paint. I've read that the pole barns flex and concrete can crack. This will drive me crazy. Is this the case? Is there any flex if properly framed?

3.) Concrete Floor - With the pressure treated skirt boards being fastened to the exterior of the support posts, there isn't a fully sealed "wall/floor" gap. Is there a way to fully seal out the garage from rodents? I saw the ratwalls and they seem like overkill. Am I missing an easier option?

4.) Post Longevity - Are the skirt boards and posts (if optional treatment is chosen as an option) prone to rot? What about termites? Where my house is, termites are prevalent. The area was all wooded before my sub-division was constructed. I already had termites in my house garage and had my builder have them treated immediately. Should I nix the idea of a pole barn since termites are prone to my area?

Thanks in advance, I feel like I'm over-researching this project since I came across Pole barns and all the different construction methods/options vs stick built.

 

[cj7jeep81]

Just some quick thoughts as I went through some of these with mine.
1) Metal will last a really long time, longer than shingles. If the gaskets on the screws were to fail in 20 years, its still a lot easier to replace screws than tear off a shingle roof and replace.
2) I'm finishing out the inside of mine currently. I'm using OSB, but there's no reason I couldn't do drywall. Not sure I've ever heard of them flexing, but my dad's pole barn has had a finished drywall interior for 20+ years, and not a single issue. As for the concrete, its the same concrete whether stick built or pole barn, so same risk of cracking. However, with proper ground prep, compaction, and pouring, shouldn't be a big risk.
3) I installed rat guard on mine. It's a piece of trim that goes against the bottom of the skirt board, and should help. However, there's really no way you're guaranteed to keep mice out as far as I'm concerned. You can minimize, but very tough to eliminate.
4) I recommend perma-columns for the posts. Google them if you aren't familiar, but the part in the ground is all concrete, so 0 rot issues, ever. On my building, the only wood in the ground is the one post for the entry door, as they didn't use a permacolumn for it.

 

[Captain Spaulding]

1.) Shingled Roof with 2' spaced trusses was quoted at $5k over Metal Roof. Is it worth it? I was assuming the 30 year architectural shingle roof will match my house better and hold up to the seasonal weather here better. Plus I like the idea of 2' trusses and OSB sheathing. But.. I have read where others say the metal roof is better. I'm not against a metal roof but fear that the screw gaskets will eventually leak. Any input?

Any roof will leak given enough time. Never had a screw leak. 30 year shingles are going to be a disappointment to you. 30 years is about 15 years too optimistic in most cases. Metal will far, far outlast them.

2.) Interior Finishing is a must. I will be using part of the garage for my commercial vehicles as well as some rare antique car storage. The antique cars must be in a heated environment. I don't like the look of OSB interior. I think the only interior look I would want to look at is Sheetrock that I can paint. I've read that the pole barns flex and concrete can crack. This will drive me crazy. Is this the case? Is there any flex if properly framed?

Any wood framing is going to flex. Stick built is generally easier to finish, but pole built can be finished nicely. OSB is chosen often for pole buildings because it requires no finishing and minimal support. All concrete cracks. No way to avoid it.

3.) Concrete Floor - With the pressure treated skirt boards being fastened to the exterior of the support posts, there isn't a fully sealed "wall/floor" gap. Is there a way to fully seal out the garage from rodents? I saw the ratwalls and they seem like overkill. Am I missing an easier option?

It is concrete to skirt board. It couldn't be sealed much tighter.

4.) Post Longevity - Are the skirt boards and posts (if optional treatment is chosen as an option) prone to rot? What about termites? Where my house is, termites are prevalent. The area was all wooded before my sub-division was constructed. I already had termites in my house garage and had my builder have them treated immediately. Should I nix the idea of a pole barn since termites are prone to my area?

Thanks in advance, I feel like I'm over-researching this project since I came across Pole barns and all the different construction methods/options vs stick built.

The skirt boards and poles are treated. I have a barn that was built in 98 that is tight, dry and no issues with termites or rot. There are sleeves that can protect the posts even better.

 

[tomroblee]

Roof is a matter of choice and price. The nail or screw gaskets will eventually weather---just as your 30 year shingles will. A standing seam metal roof will avoid having exposed fasteners---at a large price premium. If you want a drywall ceiling, you will need "nailers" spaced 24" or narrower. This could be handled with 24" truss spacing or attaching nailers to wider spaced trusses at a 90 degree angle.

Any building will flex to some degree. I'm not sure what you mean about concrete cracking in relation to walls.

Typically the skirt board are attached to the post, and are used as forms when pouring the concrete floor. Any gaps can be calked. If metal siding is used, one can buy "foam" sealing strips that match the contour of the metal. The strips are placed between the metal and skirt board.

A rat wall goes beneath the edge of the slab to keep critters from burrowing beneath the slab. Burrowing animals can create voids under the slab which will weaken it to a degree, but it is unlikely that they will enter the building.

You can finish the exterior of a post frame building any way you choose. If you use a horizontal siding, you may want to sheath the walls with plywood or OSB before you apply the siding.

For long post longevity, use something like Perma-column.

https://www.permacolumn.com/

The big savings on pole barns is that they don't require a continuous foundation. The % savings is obviously more for a shell barn than it would be for a completely finished with heating, cooling, plumbing, etc. The $ savings is highly dependent on things like wind load and soil type. In my area of the Midwest, posts are generally set about 4' deep on a concrete pad, then backfilled with dirt. I understand that, in coastal Florida with sandy soils and hurricane winds, building codes may require that the posts be buried deeper and encased with a yard or two of concrete.

 

[tjdux]

Growing up on a farm we have severalnpole barn structures and metal roofing is really the way to go. Its fast and easy to install with less materials and doesnt leak at all when done correctly. Here in the modwest many people are putting metal roofing on houses even. I actualky get a home insurance discount for metal roof because its more fore retardent. (Almosy fire proof according to some)

1+ for perma columns. They look like the best way to go for anything you want sticking around for a long time.

Termite issues seem like a wash to me either way. Wood is wood whether post or stick frame. Based on your location seems like you shoukd treat while building no matter what.

Same as already said there is only slowing mice down. They are almost unstoppable. A post frame building is going to have the skirt board sitting on concrete basically the same as stick built. Mice hate to chew through steel wool so you may want to stuff that anywhere you have gaps or the ridges in tin.

Signiture; Check out my garage progress http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352703

 

[Mvpjeff106]

Sorry about typing that the "Concrete" will crack. I was typing so much I mis-typed. It should read that I've seen a lot that the "Drywall" will crack. The concrete I'm not too worried about going 6" for my lifts.

 

[Mvpjeff106]

With the mention of Permacolumns, Will any of the amish builders use them? Will there be more flex without being one continuous post?

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

With a more refined building the cost difference becomes less of a factor.
Pole barn, uninsulated with a dirt or gravel floor will be 1/2 (or even less) than the cost of an equivalent stick built.
Insulated, finished interior, concrete floor (tiles/epoxy etc). It'd going to be a few thousand less.

Large or tall buildings also the pole structure is noticeably cheaper.
At the size you are looking at steel framing might be worth considering.

 

[Mvpjeff106]

Everyone keeps saying that the costs finished are pretty close. I was quoted $90k for stick built with un-sheetrocked and un-insulated interior -vs- pricing from $39k-$50k for Pole Barn also un-sheetrocked and un-insulated (Including Concrete Floor and 3' Apron). The $40k difference is what gets me. Only difference to finish inside is to add the nailers for the sheetrock? Am I missing something?

 

[matt_i]

If your building is built with standard girts on the outside of the posts, then insulating it becomes more difficult. I like the bookshelf girts, personally, to allow an easier time doing that. Although it will add additional framing lumber.

I think its worthwhile researching a "frost protected shallow foundation" because while there's some dirt work, its not done in trenches in the ground. Just a thickened edge slab with insulation that you can use anyway.

Imo, biggest thing about termites is excluding them from tunnelling (meaning also building mud tunnels) undetected to where they can reach wood. There isn't a better way that I know of, short of a stem wall going above the slab, to increase the physical separation. There are approved poisons for the soil, but I'd put those down in accordance with the firm that potentially is going to issue a termite bond (they have those in NJ, correct?) I'm speaking from the point of view of having lived in Atlanta for several years.

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

Everyone keeps saying that the costs finished are pretty close. I was quoted $90k for stick built with un-sheetrocked and un-insulated interior -vs- pricing from $39k-$50k for Pole Barn also un-sheetrocked and un-insulated (Including Concrete Floor and 3' Apron). The $40k difference is what gets me. Only difference to finish inside is to add the nailers for the sheetrock? Am I missing something?

So your pole barn (unfinished) is about half of stick built.
The nailers for adding sheetrock will require almost the same amount of lumber and labor as the studs would have been for stick built.
Insulation, drywall, electric etc. cost should be about equal.

By the time you get a finished I expect you will be comparing a $200k stick built to a $170k pole building. No longer half the cost.

 

[astroracer]

The "real" difference between stick built and a pole building is the upfront cost. The stick built requires the entire cost upfront. A pole building is up and enclosed for a lot less AND you can defer the interior finishing costs over time. Depends on your timeline but doing one wall at a time over a few months or years spreads the total cost over a longer time. And, just so you know you do not need 6" of concrete for a lift. BendPaks site requires 3 1/2" minimum at 2500PSI for anything under 14K. Put the saved money into the wall studs.


4-POST LIFTS

DESCRIPTION

MIN. CONCRETE SPECS


HD-9ST-B

9,000-lb. Capacity / Four Post Lift / Narrow Width

3-1/2" Min. Thickness / 2,500 psi


HD-9-B

9,000-lb. Capacity / Four Post Lift / Standard Width

3-1/2" Min. Thickness / 2,500 psi


HD-9STX-B

9,000-lb. Capacity / Four Post Lift / Narrow Width

3-1/2" Min. Thickness / 2,500 psi


HD-9XW-B

9,000-lb. Capacity / Four Post Lift / Standard Width

3-1/2" Min. Thickness / 2,500 psi


HD-14SS

14,000-lb. Capacity / Space Saver

4" Min. Thickness / 2,500 psi


HD-14

14,000-lb. Capacity / Extended

4" Min. Thickness / 2,500 psi


HD-14X

14,000-lb. Capacity / Extended / Limo Style

4" Min. Thickness / 2,500 psi

 

[Captain Spaulding]

Sorry about typing that the "Concrete" will crack. I was typing so much I mis-typed. It should read that I've seen a lot that the "Drywall" will crack. The concrete I'm not too worried about going 6" for my lifts.

6" concrete will crack too.

 

[cj7jeep81]

Sorry about typing that the "Concrete" will crack. I was typing so much I mis-typed. It should read that I've seen a lot that the "Drywall" will crack. The concrete I'm not too worried about going 6" for my lifts.

If properly built, the drywall should not crack. Like I mentioned, my dad's pole barn has been drywalled for 20 years, and not a single crack.

With the mention of Permacolumns, Will any of the amish builders use them? Will there be more flex without being one continuous post?

I would imagine it depends on the Amish. My little brother is having a pole barn built right now by Amish where he lives, and they are using perma columns. So I'm sure some do.
I don't think there would be any more flex once fully built. My building sustained some significant straight line winds shortly after being built. Lost dozens (maybe 100) trees in my woods, but 0 damage to building.

 

[glentre]

I have no issues with properly built pole barns located in appropriate areas. However, you mentioned considerations on matching roof shingles with your present house. Therefore, I assume your new garage will be close to or on the same site as your house.

Metal pole barns look like industrial warehouses located in commercial areas. Are they a suitable structure that will blend with your house and neighborhood? Would the metal building be objectionable to potential buyers should you want to resell in the future? Will your neighbors complain about you "industrializing" the area. Will your zoning dept allow one? Just some food for thought.

If you are on a farm or in a very rural area with similar buildings, then I'd say go for the lower cost alternative pole barn so long as you are pleased with the final structure.

Glen

 

[Captain Spaulding]

I have no issues with properly built pole barns located in appropriate areas. However, you mentioned considerations on matching roof shingles with your present house. Therefore, I assume your new garage will be close to or on the same site as your house.

Metal pole barns look like industrial warehouses located in commercial areas. Are they a suitable structure that will blend with your house and neighborhood? Would the metal building be objectionable to potential buyers should you want to resell in the future? Will your neighbors complain about you "industrializing" the area. Will your zoning dept allow one? Just some food for thought.

If you are on a farm or in a very rural area with similar buildings, then I'd say go for the lower cost alternative pole barn so long as you are pleased with the final structure.

Glen

Pole Building doesn't necessarily mean metal siding. You can side or roof them however you like.

 

[Falcon67]

Based on your criteria for interior finish and the use, I'd go with a poured foundation, one row of block or a poured perimeter with walls on top of that. Little to no moisture intrusion at ground level and a solid platform to frame up. OSB is way tougher than drywall, just harder to finish. Many impacts what will punch drywall just bounce off OSB. Caulking all the seams, using an oil primer plus probably two top coats of latex would be required to finish the inside. Just depends on how you see work going in the building. I used OSB and can back a 2300 lb 18' steel trailer with a 3000 lb race car into the shop and bump the back wall so I know I'm all the way in.

Lots of metal roofs here, they run MORE than 3 tab roofs by as much as 50%. If metal was cheaper, I'd go metal. Will clearly outlast any shingle application. Yes they look good, but as the last roofer we used said "Those fancy shingles look good but don't last a minute longer than the plain 3 tab. They just cost more."

 

[astroracer]

Just putting this out there as an example. My 30 x 48 pole barn was built in '85. Shingled roof and t-111 wood siding to match the house.
This pic was taken in '05 right before a 26' x 30' edition was added to the left end.

This was taken in Nov '05 after the edition, full house wrap, vinyl siding (to match the redone house) and a new roof were installed.

This is the heated side of the shop. Two rooms, an 8 x 24 machine shop and a 21 x 26 fab shop. This has been finished like this since '92 with no drywall or floor issues.

This is the house and garage.

With all that, a pole barn can be made to look very nice and the construction has no detrimental effects on how it is used. I practically live in mine during the winter months and have been doing so for 32 years.
Mark

 

[rburke65]

I'd vote for a foundation and stick built. And I like my steel roof and sides.

 

[Mvpjeff106]

Thanks for the insight. I have a guy from Lancaster Pole Barns who worked up a price for me stopping by in a week or so when he's in the area for another customer. I'll pick his brain while he's here also. The house is a little over a year old and has a three car garage built into the house. This detached garage/shop will be approximately 100' away from the house/driveway so that was my thinking of having it match the house. I was going to even do the 4' of stone veneer to match the front of my house so it looked more "appropriate" in my sub-division.

Regarding finishing the interior, with a pole barn and 8' span of posts, how many nailers are run for 5/8" sheetrock? Every 24" up the posts? Do you use 2x4's? or 2x3's?

Also...Astroracer, thanks for the info on the concrete thickness. I was only going to do a section 6" thick where the lifts are located 12'wide x 40'

Thanks for all the great advice so far