planning electrical for pole barn

[vforge]

Putting together electrical specifications for my pole barn electrical plans. The pole barn will be 40 x 80.
I plan to have outlets every 10' along each long side and then an outlet on both short sides. What amperage do you think the circuits should be for each side? What size panel should I have installed?

Lighting: TBD for inside. Likely 3 rows of 14k lumen high bay LEDs
Floodlights on both 40' sides

Equipment on a dedicated circuit:
Garage door operators
220v 30amp Air compressor
Welder that requires min 50 amp 220v circuit

 

[LopezBart]

You might make a list of what you're planning to do in the pole barn, and what equipment you're adding....

 

[mm08822]

Putting together electrical specifications for my pole barn electrical plans. The pole barn will be 40 x 80.
I plan to have outlets every 10' along each long side and then an outlet on both short sides. What amperage do you think the circuits should be for each side? I would run 20A circuits w/15a recepts using 1/2 emt and deep 4" square boxes. Possibly alternate every other recept on same circuit. Really depends on the simulatenous usage of loads. (Maybe you just hate extension cords?)

What size panel should I have installed? Amperage is one thing that should consider future loads. A load calc is needed to understand simultaneous loads. For certain, I would maximize the number of circuit spaces in the initial install. No one ever cried about too many free spaces.

Put the panel in the center of the 80' wall and not in a corner to minimize branch circuit length. Might also consider a conduit or two in the slab to have shorter runs to other walls. (think ahead of possible later floor penetrations. Measure/record the conduit routing for later reference.)

Lighting: TBD for inside. Likely 3 rows of 14k lumen high bay LEDs Depends on expected use - storage or surgery, Height of ceiling, number of fixtures, switching arrangement, maybe task lighting is also needed near work bench, lift, etc.
Floodlights on both 40' sides Maybe also midpoint on 80' walls, height of ficxtures, lumen output, spots or floods, switching arrangement, timers, etc.

Equipment on a dedicated circuit:
Garage door operators (Could possibly be on same ckt)
220v 30amp Air compressor Same with this - locate in middle of 80' wall and why not close to electric panel
Welder that requires min 50 amp 220v circuit If the circuit will be for a welder only then doesn't have to be 50A rated conductors. If it could also support portable heaters, then wire it for the 50A.

 

[vforge]

Put the panel in the center of the 80' wall and not in a corner to minimize branch circuit length. Might also consider a conduit or two in the slab to have shorter runs to other walls. (think ahead of possible later floor penetrations. Measure/record the conduit routing for later reference.)

While that might be a good idea, it has to go in the corner. The corner of the building is the shortest distance from the utility pole we will be trenching too.

Yes, sick of extension cords and electrical issues due to poorly planned and poorly executed outlets at another barn.

I used a program to design the most efficient level of lighting. My plan is for it to be bright enough to not need any additional task lighting for most tasks when all 3 rows are on.

Air compressor would be in the same corner as the panel.
The Welder outlet would also be in the corner.

Thanks.

 

[theoldwizard1]

If you are planning on having animals in the barn, most places require all wiring to be in conduit or BX.

Those will be long runs for the outlets. I would 12/2 and put them on a 20A breaker. If it is likely that you will be using multiple outlets simultaneously, consider using 12/3 and making it a MWBC (shared neutral). Either every other outlet on a different leg or possibly splitting the duplex outlet with one leg on top and one leg on bottom.

It sounds like you are going to have 2 work areas. Consider placing a 6 space 12 circuit sub panel, feed by 60A breaker, in each area.

 

[mike93lx]

Put in a big panel... 30-40 space.

Will this be on a dedicated service or a subpanel?

For a single person shop, 90a is almost always plenty.

Are you planning any area of the shop that might have more circuits, like a woodshop, grinding room, office? If so, I'd put a subpanel at that location to minimize lengthy wire runs

 

[LopezBart]

If you are planning on having animals in the barn, most places require all wiring to be in conduit or BX.

Those will be long runs for the outlets. I would 12/2 and put them on a 20A breaker. If it is likely that you will be using multiple outlets simultaneously, consider using 12/3 and making it a MWBC (shared neutral). Either every other outlet on a different leg or possibly splitting the duplex outlet with one leg on top and one leg on bottom.

It sounds like you are going to have 2 work areas. Consider placing a 6 space 12 circuit sub panel, feed by 60A breaker, in each area.

If you're subject to a recent electrical code, all these outlets will need to be GFCI protected.

 

[vforge]

If you are planning on having animals in the barn, most places require all wiring to be in conduit or BX.

Those will be long runs for the outlets. I would 12/2 and put them on a 20A breaker. If it is likely that you will be using multiple outlets simultaneously, consider using 12/3 and making it a MWBC (shared neutral). Either every other outlet on a different leg or possibly splitting the duplex outlet with one leg on top and one leg on bottom.

It sounds like you are going to have 2 work areas. Consider placing a 6 space 12 circuit sub panel, feed by 60A breaker, in each area.

No animals. I like the sub panel idea.

Lighting will be 3 rows of 5, Lithonia IBE 15k lumen high bay lights.

 

[TobeyA]

I have a 30x50 pole barn. I did what is being recommended. 20 amp breaker, 15 amp outlets. I have 4 breakers feeding all the outlets. Each station has 2 outlets. The left ones are on one breaker, the right ones are on another breaker. Then the same for the opposite side of the shop. And I have a 50 amp circuit on each side of the shop.

My other recommendation is to future-proof your lighting. I wish we had installed several junction boxes instead of just daisy-chaining the lights. It would make it much easier to go back and add a few more lights in specific spots now that I've been using the shop for a couple of years.

 

[AC-WC]

Minimum 60A sub panel, possibly 100A just depends on what you really plan to do in there.
For the size building you have a minimum of 2-20A circuits for wall outlets, 4 would be better.
2-15A for lights but keep them LED if you do anything else you will want 20A. If your lights are direct wire they do not have to be GFCI only if plug in. You can have the switch right next to the GFCI and at the door. That could also count as your outlet at the ends. Like Tobey said above add the outlets to future proof.
1-15A for door openers IF they are plug in the GFCI has to be at floor level to be reset. If they can be direct wired they do not have to be GFCI.
Please match the outlets to the amperage 15-15, 20-20. It doesn't cost that much more to do it to code/right. If it ever gets inspected you will be glad to do it right.
You might be spending at least $1000 just for materials....

Your proposed setup is just like my garage w/60A sub.
30A 220 for the compressor
50A 220 for the welder
15A for lights (14, 5000 lumen 4'shop leds). Each light is 80 watts so I have room for a few more.
15A for 2-openers
20A for interior circuit
20A for other buildings (lights and outlets for a separate garage and 2 barns/all storage.
30A for lift.
All my wiring except for the 220 and the lift is 12 ga. If I ever really need to up the lights the wiring is there for 20A.
I have never tripped a circuit, OK except for the mouse that chewed through a wire in the barn

 

[mike93lx]

Please match the outlets to the amperage 15-15, 20-20. It doesn't cost that much more to do it to code/right. If it ever gets inspected you will be glad to do it right

This is not true. Using a 15a receptacle is completely fine for a 20a circuit, and code compliant, as long as there is more than one single receptacle on the circuit. A duplex counts as two. Buying 20a receptacles I'd not necessary unless you have something with a 20a plug end, which is rare.

 

[sparky 1971]

Please match the outlets to the amperage 15-15, 20-20. It doesn't cost that much more to do it to code/right. If it ever gets inspected you will be glad to do it right.

Check out table 210.21(B)(3) in the NEC.


Table 210.21(B)(3) Receptacle Ratings for Circuits Serving More Than One Receptacle or Receptacle Outlet

Circuit Rating (Amperes)	Receptacle Rating (Amperes)
15	15
20	15 or 20
30	30
40	40 or 50
50	50

I can only recall seeing three things that required a 20 amp 125 volt receptacle during my 29 years in the trade. There certainly isn't anything wrong with installing 20 amp receptacles, but it isn't required by the code.
�

 

[Norcal]

If we are going to discuss code the OP needs to disclose where they are, the 2017 NEC is going to have differences from the 2020, or 2023 editions and the newer editions are going to have much more costly requirements.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Please match the outlets to the amperage 15-15, 20-20. It doesn't cost that much more to do it to code/right. If it ever gets inspected you will be glad to do it right.

huh? what code requires that?

 

[Norcal]

huh? what code requires that?

The good old Urban Legend Code.

 

[i4ni]

Do yourself a favor and frame a chase or bay floor to ceiling 24" to 36" wide to center your breaker panel in with removable plywood so you can access all sides of the panel for future work. Makes life much easier to neatly route everthing into the panel.
I went every 4' for outlets and used 12/3 alternating every other outlet on Red or Black circuit. It's more work but not much more expense and you'll cuss yourself at 10 foot trust me. I like my outlets 4' off the floor. I used GFCI breakers as well.
Note: You will need Two pole GFCI Breakers to accomplish this.

 

[sparky 1971]

Do yourself a favor and frame a chase or bay floor to ceiling 24" to 36" wide to center your breaker panel in with removable plywood so you can access all sides of the panel for future work. Makes life much easier to neatly route everthing into the panel.
I went every 4' for outlets and used 12/3 alternating every other outlet on Red or Black circuit. It's more work but not much more expense and you'll cuss yourself at 10 foot trust me. I like my outlets 4' off the floor. I used GFCI breakers as well.

Two pole breakers?

 

[sparky 1971]

Is the wiring going to be in conduit of some type or Romex (NM-B)?

 

[i4ni]

Two pole breakers?

Yes is this not kosher?

 

[sparky 1971]

Yes is this not kosher?

You're all good, It's the only way to get a MWBC to work with GFCI breakers.. You wouldn't be the first person that tried it with single pole breakers and when it wouldn't work, went another route, forgot about having to change, then suggested the original wrong way to someone else. I'm too much of a cheapskate to use breakers for myself.

 

[i4ni]

You're all good, It's the only way to get a MWBC to work with GFCI breakers.. You wouldn't be the first person that tried it with single pole breakers and when it wouldn't work, went another route, forgot about having to change, then suggested the original wrong way to someone else. I'm too much of a cheapskate to use breakers for myself.

I have a CH Breaker panel and just watched ebay close and scored some new ones fairly cheap.

 

[i4ni]

Don't forget outside lights and outlets. Security system, internet, heating, cooling, exhaust fan? I like to work on certain things outside to keep the shop cleaner or less smokey like welding, painting and there will be times when you may not have the room inside or it's just more convenient like using a pressure washer. A 50 amp plug at least near an over head door is a must for me even though I have tons of welding leads so try to visualize ways to utilise the space for the different scenerios that will pop up and plan accordingly. If you plan on running conduit on the walls instead of inside the walls you can always add as needed if not you have to make those choices now. Good luck

 

[vforge]

Here are the specs we've come up with. We're having plans done to get permits right now.
The plan is a 200amp panel at the rear corner and a 100amp sub panel at the front. All outlets are GFCI protected. 18k lumen floodlights at the front and back. Guess the quoted price. It's high due to 150' of trenching to a utility pole.

 

[dcg9381]

. Guess the quoted price. It's high due to 150' of trenching to a utility pole.

200' of trenching was quoted at like $3k for me a few years ago. That's just cutting the trench. No conduit, no wire. I did it myself for about $1k (had to rent a rock saw).

You have a big barn/shop, whatever you do, I'd want sub panels on both sides... It's going to make sense to split off from the main, especially with the cost of wire. I have 4 sub-panels in my shop.

Internet and security - most of these things are "power over ethernet" these days. Dead easy, other than terminating the ends.

 

[i4ni]

I would have no idea on cost these days but I do most everything myself. I'll venture a wild guess, $30 grand?

 

[sparky 1971]

Here are the specs we've come up with. We're having plans done to get permits right now.
The plan is a 200amp panel at the rear corner and a 100amp sub panel at the front. All outlets are GFCI protected. 18k lumen floodlights at the front and back. Guess the quoted price. It's high due to 150' of trenching to a utility pole.

$45,000

 

[AC-WC]

$4k for trench
$2k for the 2 panels
$6k for the wiring
so minimum $10 maybe 15k?

 

[Mr onetwo]

consider running several conduits under the slab from side to side for future changes.It will make everything much easier later.Don't forget networking also.

 

[Mr onetwo]

$19,278.93

 

[mike93lx]

Price is right rules?

45,001

 

[vforge]

$26k. Some of you were close. Thats the bid from one company. I’m going to get bids from 2 other companies.

 

[35Ford]

A lot of good suggestions. As far as outlet placement, I like to install outlets where needed and for stationary equipment, then space out general use convenience outlets 10-12'. To me, outlets every 5', quads etc. looks cluttered and as if there was no plan for placement. Even if outlets were 1' apart, you'll still need an extension cord for most corded tools, and most garage tools these days are battery operated anyways. Fewer outlets will save time, material, money, a lot of wall penetrations and a cleaner look. Just my 2ct.

 

[sparky 1971]

$26k. Some of you were close. Thats the bid from one company. I’m going to get bids from 2 other companies.

That's not a bad price, especially if everything is going to be in conduit. If it's a romex or MC job, it's still probably about right.

 

[dcg9381]

$26k. Some of you were close. Thats the bid from one company. I’m going to get bids from 2 other companies.

Provide the details of the bid. They matter.

 

[kstateskier]

I spent $8000 for trenching but I had a 24" trench dug 485' starting at 44" and ending up near 9' deep at septic. Mine was a multi use trench that got electrical conduit (3"), 1" water line and 4" sewer. This included backfill.

3" electrical conduit is a million dollars these days. Actually $3200 for 400'. plus 6 90d long sweeps.

 

[vforge]

The second bid (actually a budget for it) came in at $55k. I need to get the sealed plans to them for a proper quote.


DESCRIPTION:

- Providing electrical service, complete rough-in wiring, and finish-out electrical work of new barn.

SERVICE AND SUB PANEL:

- (1) 200a service to new barn including:

- disconnect and removal of existing service at pole approx 140’ from new building

- install of 3” pvc conduit from existing pole to new meter base

- #4/0 al wire pull from top of existing to pole to meter base

- install of 200a meter base at SW corner of building

- install of 200a main breaker panel at inside SW corner of building

- grounding of new service as required by code

- (1) 100a sub panel installed at NW corner of building, fed from 200a MDP

MECHANICALS + EQUIPMENT:

- (1) 50a 240v receptacle installed next to panel

- (1) 40a 240v designated circuit to power air compressor (location TBD)

- (2) 120v receptacles to power overhead doors

LIGHTING:

- (2) 18,000 lumen LED flood lights installed (1) at each gable peak, each light to be switched separately at closest doorway

- (15) Lithonia IBE 15k lumen 5000k hi bay lights installed at ceiling of building configured in pattern as shown on print, (3) rows of lights to be switched separately at (1) location at NW corner of building

RECEPTACLES:

- (9) GFI protected receptacles installed at W wall, to be powered by (1) 20a 120v circuit

- (9) GFI protected receptacles installed at E wall, to be powered by (1) 20a 120v circuit

- (1) GFI protected receptacle installed @ N wall

- (1) GFI protected receptacle installed @ S wall

- (1) WP GFI protected receptacle installed on exterior of N wall

- (1) WP GFI protected receptacle installed on exterior of S wall

 

[mike93lx]

$55k? Did I miss where the other 7 barns are?

 

[vforge]

$55k? Did I miss where the other 7 barns are?

Their words were that they couldn't give me a firm bid without drawings, only a budget. It's either a mistake, a worst-case price, or an I don't want the job price. I think it's likely a mistake but I will find out.

 

[mike93lx]

Their words were that they couldn't give me a firm bid without drawings, only a budget. It's either a mistake, a worst-case price, or an I don't want the job price. I think it's likely a mistake but I will find out.

That ain't a budget. That's a f-off price

 

[wyliesdiesels]

yeah thats way too high