yea, must be more involved as they said that sunroom is partnered to do the charger installs.
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Planning for EV charging?
- Thread starter andyvh1959
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yea, must be more involved as they said that sunroom is partnered to do the charger installs.
you technically dont need anything fancy to charge at home. the fancy charger can operate on its own. or if you're buying the basic model you only get 9.6kw charging anyways.
here is an 80a J1772 home unit.
here is a more reasonably sizes 9.6kw unit: thats still 115kwh delivered in a 12 hour session. Likely plenty for most people.
I was referring to the new pro charger model that does bi-directional charging/backup. Most likely has some type of interlock.you technically dont need anything fancy to charge at home. the fancy charger can operate on its own. or if you're buying the basic model you only get 9.6kw charging anyways.
here is an 80a J1772 home unit.
here is a more reasonably sizes 9.6kw unit: thats still 115kwh delivered in a 12 hour session. Likely plenty for most people.
it has an ATS between the meter and the main panel. a totally separate unit that will need to be installed in conjunction with the pro charger. its unclear if its a specific unit ford and an ATS company have worked out OR if the pro charger will take a 2 wire input from any ol ATSI was referring to the new pro charger model that does bi-directional charging/backup. Most likely has some type of interlock.
Syberia
Well-known member
The "standard," which I would expect to remain so, is a 14-50 outlet for either a 32 or 40 amp charger. Remember, though, that an electric vehicle is just find charging below its maximum rate, and for most people that don't deplete the battery daily, that is fine. My wife is one of those people who drives more than average, so we have a 32-amp EVSE for her, but I get by fine charging off of the 12-amp 240-volt EVSE that came with my Volt. Since it is a plug-in hybrid with a small battery, it fully charges in about 5-6 hours, and would be good for about 100 miles overnight in something with a larger battery. Plus the total load comes to 44 amps and doesn't overload our 60-amp subpanel.
The "standard," which I would expect to remain so, is a 14-50 outlet for either a 32 or 40 amp charger. Remember, though, that an electric vehicle is just find charging below its maximum rate, and for most people that don't deplete the battery daily, that is fine. My wife is one of those people who drives more than average, so we have a 32-amp EVSE for her, but I get by fine charging off of the 12-amp 240-volt EVSE that came with my Volt. Since it is a plug-in hybrid with a small battery, it fully charges in about 5-6 hours, and would be good for about 100 miles overnight in something with a larger battery. Plus the total load comes to 44 amps and doesn't overload our 60-amp subpanel.
clippercreek makes a 2 cord - 32a j1772 charger that plugs into 1- 14-50 outlet. IMO that's a really solid solution for 2 car family. it handles all the sharing between the two. when one finishes it kicks the other up to full 32a.
tdkkart
Well-known member
Given the fact that installing a dedicated EV charging outlet in many homes could, and probably will, cost $1000 or more, it will be cost prohibitive for many potential buyers, and we haven't even begun to talk about apartment, trailer park, and condo dwellers. I suspect in the interest of gathering as much market share as possible, there will be a real push to get as much charging capability as possible out of a 20 amp outlet.
A lot of people can jump right into a 96 month loan or a 3-5year fleece, however many of them will be hesitant to buy vehicle that can't charge at home without spending large sums of money for the place to plug it in.
On a large scale, we're talking a HUGE infrastructure change if we expect even 20% of the population to be driving EVs. "Oh, you can charge at work". Ok, lets give my company credit for being on the leading edge of installing EV outlets in our parking lots. We have 10,000 employees here in town, I think we're up to EIGHT charging stations, most of which are currently empty when I see them. It's gonna be a hell of a long time before we have even 200 on site.
A lot of people can jump right into a 96 month loan or a 3-5year fleece, however many of them will be hesitant to buy vehicle that can't charge at home without spending large sums of money for the place to plug it in.
On a large scale, we're talking a HUGE infrastructure change if we expect even 20% of the population to be driving EVs. "Oh, you can charge at work". Ok, lets give my company credit for being on the leading edge of installing EV outlets in our parking lots. We have 10,000 employees here in town, I think we're up to EIGHT charging stations, most of which are currently empty when I see them. It's gonna be a hell of a long time before we have even 200 on site.
Syberia
Well-known member
That would definitely have been an option had we both been planning on getting EVs when we installed the first charger.clippercreek makes a 2 cord - 32a j1772 charger that plugs into 1- 14-50 outlet. IMO that's a really solid solution for 2 car family. it handles all the sharing between the two. when one finishes it kicks the other up to full 32a.
EDIT: Ah, I see, $1,350. Since we have enough power available in the garage, I'd rather just go with the $500 one we bought and the free one that came with my Volt.
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That would definitely have been an option had we both been planning on getting EVs when we installed the first charger.
EDIT: Ah, I see, $1,350. Since we have enough power available in the garage, I'd rather just go with the $500 one we bought and the free one that came with my Volt.
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its basically 2 - 600 dollar units smashed together. if you're power limited at your house with a 100a service it is a pretty good option to get 2 cars charged without having to do a 200a service upgrade
Syberia
Well-known member
125 amp service but all gas appliances so it works out
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Evilcactuar
Well-known member
Man, this is alot of discussion on this. If I was worried about it and closing up the wall, I'd run conduit to a box so I could do it later and avoid snaking the wall. Super cheap and future proof. Who knows what charging will look like even 5 years from now.
jkeyser14
Well-known member
It will look the same in 5 years. Houses are all different and have different electrical panels/capacities. Therefore chargers will continue to just work off whatever voltage/current you have available and your charge times will be a reflection of that.Man, this is alot of discussion on this. If I was worried about it and closing up the wall, I'd run conduit to a box so I could do it later and avoid snaking the wall. Super cheap and future proof. Who knows what charging will look like even 5 years from now.
Put in a NEMA 14-50 outlet and you'll be able to charge at around 30-40 miles of range per hour regardless of the car. And if the charger doesn't have a NEMA 14-50 plug you just pull the outlet and hard wire the charger where the outlet was.
OP
andyvh1959
Well-known member
When I started this thread as the OP, I hardly thought it would go three pages worth. Lots of good discussion and ideas.
Two months ago, I had three extra spaces in my CH Load Center in the attached garage. Now that I added a duplex breaker to feed the sub-panel in my detached garage, and after I installed another single breaker after I found two circuits doubled into a single breaker (by a previous owner), my Load Center is full. So if I were to install NEMA 14-50 outlets for future charging needs I'd also have to replace the entire 70's vintage Load Center. That will have to wait, finances wise, and I'll likely sell the house before that happens.
Two months ago, I had three extra spaces in my CH Load Center in the attached garage. Now that I added a duplex breaker to feed the sub-panel in my detached garage, and after I installed another single breaker after I found two circuits doubled into a single breaker (by a previous owner), my Load Center is full. So if I were to install NEMA 14-50 outlets for future charging needs I'd also have to replace the entire 70's vintage Load Center. That will have to wait, finances wise, and I'll likely sell the house before that happens.
tdkkart
Well-known member
So if I were to install NEMA 14-50 outlets for future charging needs I'd also have to replace the entire 70's vintage Load Center. That will have to wait, finances wise, and I'll likely sell the house before that happens.
Exactly the point of my post above. I would imagine to run the circuits to my garage to charge 2 vehicles it would probably cost close to $2000, maybe more if the breaker panel comes into play, and it's less than 20ft to the front center of my garage from the breaker panel, but it has to go above 2 finished ceilings in 2 different rooms, plus the garage ceiling.
"BTW, before you drive your car home, here's a $5000 estimate for wiring."
OP
andyvh1959
Well-known member
Haven't read of too many people driving electric cars including the costs to install proper charging stations to their "cost to operate an electric vehicle", but I could see $2000 or more to get the right stuff installed. Sure, its a one time cost IF you pay it all up front. But it is a cost to operate an electric vehicle that must be included if you want to fast charge any vehicle at home.
In my Load Center I have four standard width 15 amp CH breakers. If I changed those four 15 amp standard breakers to the CH half width 15 amp tandem breakers I'd gain enough space in the panel to add another 50 amp duplex breaker to power a NEMA 14-10 charging outlet.
I have never used this style breaker, but considering it is an Eaton CH product I'd expect no problems using a tandem breaker versus a single breaker. Anyone else have concerns with tandem breakers?
In my Load Center I have four standard width 15 amp CH breakers. If I changed those four 15 amp standard breakers to the CH half width 15 amp tandem breakers I'd gain enough space in the panel to add another 50 amp duplex breaker to power a NEMA 14-10 charging outlet.
I have never used this style breaker, but considering it is an Eaton CH product I'd expect no problems using a tandem breaker versus a single breaker. Anyone else have concerns with tandem breakers?
OP
andyvh1959
Well-known member
Y'know, one aspect of EV versus internal combustion engines with little discussion is what do you do when the "fuel" runs out due to not watching the fuel gauge. In the good old days, you walked a distance to buy a gallon or two of gas, poured it in and once the car starts you drive to a close by gas station and fill up. Maybe call a friend or family member to bring you some fuel. Sure you suffer some embarrassment, loose a few hours time, but you're back on the road and rolling.
With an EV, if you run out of juice on the road, IF you can get a tow truck to a local super-charge station, IF the super-charge station is available, you're going to be there for a number of hours before you gather just enough charge to get to another super-charge station, or to home. Then you are car stranded until the EV is fully charged again. Unless, that is the aspect of fast change out battery stations becomes the EV equivalent of a gas station:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35717014/ample-battery-swapping-station/
But to us gas station enthusiasts, an EV battery change out station has none of the allure of the traditional gas stations. Doubt there will ever be the modern equivalent Super-charger "pump" like the classic Tokheim, Wayne, Bowser, Bennet vintage gas pumps.
With an EV, if you run out of juice on the road, IF you can get a tow truck to a local super-charge station, IF the super-charge station is available, you're going to be there for a number of hours before you gather just enough charge to get to another super-charge station, or to home. Then you are car stranded until the EV is fully charged again. Unless, that is the aspect of fast change out battery stations becomes the EV equivalent of a gas station:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35717014/ample-battery-swapping-station/
But to us gas station enthusiasts, an EV battery change out station has none of the allure of the traditional gas stations. Doubt there will ever be the modern equivalent Super-charger "pump" like the classic Tokheim, Wayne, Bowser, Bennet vintage gas pumps.
As long as tandems fit and are listed for your panel you should be good. Not all panels take tandems and for those that do, not all spaces will take them. Look at the sticker on your panel. Note that there are non-CTL tandems that might fit but are not listed/approved. Also with CH panels sometimes older panels won't take newer breakers.Anyone else have concerns with tandem breakers?
gtae07
Well-known member
Or, you develop the habit of watching the gauge and don't let it get much below half full. Those of us in hurricane country should know that.what do you do when the "fuel" runs out due to not watching the fuel gauge.
Y'know, one aspect of EV versus internal combustion engines with little discussion is what do you do when the "fuel" runs out due to not watching the fuel gauge. In the good old days, you walked a distance to buy a gallon or two of gas, poured it in and once the car starts you drive to a close by gas station and fill up. Maybe call a friend or family member to bring you some fuel. Sure you suffer some embarrassment, loose a few hours time, but you're back on the road and rolling.
With an EV, if you run out of juice on the road, IF you can get a tow truck to a local super-charge station, IF the super-charge station is available, you're going to be there for a number of hours before you gather just enough charge to get to another super-charge station, or to home. Then you are car stranded until the EV is fully charged again. Unless, that is the aspect of fast change out battery stations becomes the EV equivalent of a gas station:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35717014/ample-battery-swapping-station/
But to us gas station enthusiasts, an EV battery change out station has none of the allure of the traditional gas stations. Doubt there will ever be the modern equivalent Super-charger "pump" like the classic Tokheim, Wayne, Bowser, Bennet vintage gas pumps.
you assume the tech never arrives to have portable DC to DC charge solutions. but ill talk about current situation: yes you need a tow. no it doesnt take hours at the super charger to get filled up. you're not stranded until its fully charged. i hardly ever charge past 60% at super chargers.
also the car is screaming at you LONG ahead of time that you're outside charger range. tells you to slow down to make it. etc.
AntonLargiader
Well-known member
XJ, the internet is full of people with no EV experience talking about the EV experience!
For those that are worried about it there are solutions for a tow truck to charge an EV on the side of the road. One such is https://www.edn.com/portable-charging-solutions-offer-roadside-assistance-for-evs/
crazybrit
Well-known member
Not to mention incapable of staying on-topic.XJ, the internet is full of people with no EV experience talking about the EV experience!
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ericm
Well-known member
Y'know, one aspect of EV versus internal combustion engines with little discussion is what do you do when the "fuel" runs out due to not watching the fuel gauge. In the good old days, you walked a distance to buy a gallon or two of gas, poured it in and once the car starts you drive to a close by gas station and fill up. Maybe call a friend or family member to bring you some fuel. Sure you suffer some embarrassment, loose a few hours time, but you're back on the road and rolling.
The last (and first) time I accidentally ran a vehicle's fuel tank empty was in 1976. I don't see it being an issue.
I think I'll plan my new garage/shop to have capacity for a charger. While I'm not a fan of electric cars now (though unlike some I'm fine with other people using them), that may change.
Mr_fixit
Well-known member
or any subject...XJ, the internet is full of people with no EV experience talking about the EV experience!
I watched this also. Found the video posted on YouTube today :I was watching This Old House last night and they were talking about the next thing in home charging may be non-contact inductive charging, from a pad built into the floor. It's anyone's guess when and if that will become common, but it's an example of how the charging and installation requirements may change in the future.
They also touched on being able to use an EV to provide power to the house in the event of an outage. Of course it wouldn't be practical for a long term outage, and also not for running large inductive loads like air conditioning, but for short term (like a few hours, which is what most people probably face) being able to run a few lights , a gas furnace, and the fridge it would be useful.
What's New with EV Chargers | Ask This Old House
I watched this also. Found the video posted on YouTube today :
What's New with EV Chargers | Ask This Old House
Jun 2, 2021
if they're putting in dedicated 120-20a into each bay by code thats pretty good news. you can swap it out for a 240v-20a. thats 3.8kw of charging. that actually makes me really happy to see.
dcg9381
Well-known member
They also touched on being able to use an EV to provide power to the house in the event of an outage. Of course it wouldn't be practical for a long term outage, and also not for running large inductive loads like air conditioning, but for short term (like a few hours, which is what most people probably face) being able to run a few lights , a gas furnace, and the fridge it would be useful.
Definitely an interesting option. Word is around here in the "great freeze" that a few Ford dealers dispatched the new electric F-150 for power generation. I haven't looked at how that connection would work and dunno if they actually were powering up breaker panels, but it's kinda a cool option.
As an electrician, I'm unable to decide what to stick in my my own garage walls before I close them up. So I just close them up and run any electrical afterwards, as I come to need it.
If you are set on burying a large future circuit in the wall.... Maybe just run a 3/4 or 1" conduit into a box, and leave it empty until you get that hungry piece of equipment, or at least know it's actual electrical specs.
If you are set on burying a large future circuit in the wall.... Maybe just run a 3/4 or 1" conduit into a box, and leave it empty until you get that hungry piece of equipment, or at least know it's actual electrical specs.
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nadogail
Well-known member
Just as Photo Voltaic (Solar Electric) wiring is now being mandated in some states as a requirement during new construction; pre-wiring for ca chargers is certainly soon to follow.
If you have the walls open; future proof your project, for example; prepping for A/C by running a Line Set during construction is much cheaper to install than doing it later.
If you have the walls open; future proof your project, for example; prepping for A/C by running a Line Set during construction is much cheaper to install than doing it later.
Just as Photo Voltaic (Solar Electric) wiring is now being mandated in some states as a requirement during new construction; pre-wiring for ca chargers is certainly soon to follow.
If you have the walls open; future proof your project, for example; prepping for A/C by running a Line Set during construction is much cheaper to install than doing it later.
I thought NEC was gona require new construction to have a 20a per spot in garages for EV.
larry4406
Well-known member
One county in MD that I was building new homes in that had adopted 2015(?) NEC requires us to provide this.I thought NEC was gona require new construction to have a 20a per spot in garages for EV.
One county in MD that I was building new homes in that had adopted 2015(?) NEC requires us to provide this.
home runs right? so you can swap it out for a 240-20a. 3.8kw charging is a decent amount. plenty for most commutes
Yankeefarmer
Well-known member
I don’t see anything explicit in the code supporting this. It does not require an individual circuit for each bay, just that at least one receptacle outlet per bay be provided on a 20 amp circuit with no other receptacles. It then allows an exception “This circuit shall be permitted to supply readily accessible outdoor receptacle outlets.” That would seem to preclude provision for future upgrading to 240v.home runs right? so you can swap it out for a 240-20a. 3.8kw charging is a decent amount. plenty for most commutes
I don’t see anything explicit in the code supporting this. It does not require an individual circuit for each bay, just that at least one receptacle outlet per bay be provided on a 20 amp circuit with no other receptacles. It then allows an exception “This circuit shall be permitted to supply readily accessible outdoor receptacle outlets.” That would seem to preclude provision for future upgrading to 240v.
so the charging circuit could also be the exterior GFCI's. hummm. well its better than nothing 20a of 120 still covers the majority of commutes.
dcg9381
Well-known member
My experience with modern AFI/GFI (combo) breakers has been craptastic. They don't seem to like anything that hits with a hard start-up load - dunno if most EV chargers have a ramp or not...
larry4406
Well-known member
home runs right? so you can swap it out for a 240-20a. 3.8kw charging is a decent amount. plenty for most commutes
No the outlets one per bay were not dedicated 20a’s. They were ganged together and included the garage door openers.I don’t see anything explicit in the code supporting this. It does not require an individual circuit for each bay, just that at least one receptacle outlet per bay be provided on a 20 amp circuit with no other receptacles. It then allows an exception “This circuit shall be permitted to supply readily accessible outdoor receptacle outlets.” That would seem to preclude provision for future upgrading to 240vThese are not dedicated outlets. These extra outlets one per bay are all common with the garage door motor(s) above and how knows what else. A single GFI in the garage trips them all.
My experience with modern AFI/GFI (combo) breakers has been craptastic. They don't seem to like anything that hits with a hard start-up load - dunno if most EV chargers have a ramp or not...
mine ramps up.
nadogail
Well-known member
My next vehicle purchase may very probably be an electric, I am 82 years old and am making any more 20 year plans.