allinon72
Well-known member
Wow I can just imagine how stuffy it is over there 
Please critique my electrical work
- Thread starter Rainking
- Start date
Well this is nothing new DIYers against the PROs. I expected this it's nothing new.
Lots of DIYers hate the pros because they don't have the skills or what it takes...nothing new there. They don't have the skills so they "teach" on a forum. You know the saying "those who don't know teach"
Good luck with that I'm out. I'll stick with the pro forums electriciantalk and mike holt. Go bring your comments over there and see how they fly
It's not a matter of DIYers against the Pros, it's a matter of you and your ego against some well educated members. They are members here, with a vast amount of knowledge more than willing to help out other members without looking down on them.
The only one doing the hating in this thread is you, Eddie. Good luck to you and come back whenever you want, as long as you are friendly and helpful to other members. If you choose to be condescending to the other members, you'll be staying at electrician talk or Mike Holt.com.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Well this is nothing new DIYers against the PROs. I expected this it's nothing new.
Lots of DIYers hate the pros because they don't have the skills or what it takes...nothing new there. They don't have the skills so they "teach" on a forum. You know the saying "those who don't know teach"
Good luck with that I'm out. I'll stick with the pro forums electriciantalk and mike holt. Go bring your comments over there and see how they fly
Typical cowered! Ducking out instead of correcting your mistakes!
Whats funny about that is I AM registered there and I AM an electrician. Id be willing to bet money that u would get flamed on electriciantalk if u posted the wrong ampacity of NM-B wire over there!! I'll be aure to head over to electrician talk to see if u post over there! And if youre a HANDYMAN like u claimed, how would YOU be registered over there?? Since a handyman isnt a pro.....
And I know that guys like speedy pete and IIRCC Norcal and Aceman are also registered there as well!
Last edited:
pattenp
Well-known member
Both MikeHolt and electriciantalk ask you to be in an electrical related field or trade to register. There's no requirement for you to be in the actual trade of being an electrician. Those forums don't have anyway to police who joins. I see questions on these forums that make me wonder if the poster is a DIY'er fishing for answers. The Mods do their best to weed them out, but it's not practical to screen people to see if in fact they do have a connection to the electrical field.
Well this is nothing new DIYers against the PROs. I expected this it's nothing new.
Lots of DIYers hate the pros because they don't have the skills or what it takes...nothing new there. They don't have the skills so they "teach" on a forum. You know the saying "those who don't know teach"
Good luck with that I'm out. I'll stick with the pro forums electriciantalk and mike holt. Go bring your comments over there and see how they fly
Well this is nothing new DIYers against the PROs. I expected this it's nothing new.
Lots of DIYers hate the pros because they don't have the skills or what it takes...nothing new there. They don't have the skills so they "teach" on a forum. You know the saying "those who don't know teach"
Good luck with that I'm out. I'll stick with the pro forums electriciantalk and mike holt. Go bring your comments over there and see how they fly
Might as well just go post it on facebook, then they'll know you mean business..
The only one doing the hating is me? Did you read post #14 and the other people slamming professionals just because they aren't?
By the way I came here to talk about mechanic stuff and tools and been here for awhile. I don't come here and slam the ASE certified PROFESSIONAL mechanics like most of you slam the PROFESSIONAL electricians.
Good luck with your attitudes I can see why you aren't pros
Wrong. I have been a member for 6+ years you must be working in the electrical trade to register. Ofcorse they can't tell by registering but the members know when a DIYer has joined just by the way he/she types and the questions they ask. They are quickly found and asked to register at the DIY boards and the thread is locked.
You are an electrician and spell coward --- cowered?
Nobody is a coward son I just dont fall into the troll trap. I don't need to prove anything on a message board full of people I never met like you do and others here.Like I said my comments are based on the morons saying being a professional means nothing. You can hate on me all you want.
Good luck.
Justanoldguy
Well-known member
There are plenty of non pros who can ask and answer questions every bit as good.
Where does that leave you then.
A board full of smart thinking DIY people, that's where.. lol
Justanoldguy
Well-known member
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
You are an electrician and spell coward --- cowered?
Like I said my comments are based on the morons saying being a professional means nothing. You can hate on me all you want.
Good luck.
Yes, Im an electrician. What does spelling have to do with that. Regardless, Im on a phone typing this and spell check wrecks havoc on my comments!
BTW, u still havent responded to any of the contradictions youve had
and I thought u left....
Yes, Im an electrician. What does spelling have to do with that. Regardless, Im on a phone typing this and spell check wrecks havoc on my comments!
BTW, u still havent responded to any of the contradictions youve had
Not leaving the board I was done with the thread. The hatred against professionals is sickening. I joined this forum for the mechanic talk and tool talk. I do all my own mechanic work and have no problems with ASE certified professional mechanics. I don't hate just to hate like some in this thread.
I gave the OP my opinion saying he should have hired a professional and a bunch of you had your feelings hurt. Sometimes the truth hurts.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
U keep bringing up ASE certified "professionals". If u want to go there I could write a small book on all the cars that have been screwed up by ASE certified "PROFESSIONALS", including independent shops AND dealerships. Ive personally had a few cars in the past that got screwed up by ASE certified "PROFESSIONAL" mechanics. I have friends that have had their cars screwed up by "PROFESSIONALS" AND u can go online and read millions of horror stories of car repairs gone wrong because of ASE certified "PROFESSIONALS".
The hatred isnt towards all professionals. Its towards the people claiming to be professional who screw things up and taint the title!!
If youre done with the thread then WHY are u still here?
But youre still beating around the bush and not addressing youre contradictions...
Last edited:
U keep bringing up ASE certified "professionals". If u want to go there I could write a small book on all the cars that have been screwed up by ASE certified "PROFESSIONALS", including independent shops AND dealerships. Ive personally had a few cars in the past that got screwed up by ASE certified "PROFESSIONAL" mechanics. I have friends that have had their cars screwed up by "PROFESSIONALS" AND u can go online and read millions of horror stories of car repairs gone wrong because of ASE certified "PROFESSIONALS".
The hatred isnt towards all professionals. Its towards the people claiming to be professional who screw things up and taint the title!!
If youre done with the thread then WHY are u still here?
But youre still beating around the bush and not addressing youre contradictions...
Lots of people have had horror stories when hiring professionals but I will hire one over a dabbler or tinkerer any day. At least you have way better odds of things being done right when hiring a pro. If it was the opposite we wouldn't have hundreds of thousands of reputable contractors across the country. If we all did bad work we wouldn't be in business very long.
If I wasn't an electrician and I needed my house rewired I wouldn't call up a DIYer because he installed some outlets and changed some light fixtures and tells me "I can do that". I'm calling the pro with the knowledge, training, experience, license, insurance and check his references.
Same with any other trade if it's serious I'm calling a pro. I'm not going to attempt things because I read it on garage journal and listen to people I never met or know nothing of their background or experience...
"The hatred isnt towards all professionals. Its towards the people claiming to be professional who screw things up and taint the title!!"
That wasn't said that started this whole thing off. The guy simply said "being a pro means nothing" Sorry man the hundreds of thousands of professionals will disagree.
To me a guy that claims to know it all and the pros don't but doesn't do the work every day for a living is full of ****.
allinon72
Well-known member
I've never seen someone get so butthurt over a forum post. You even put it in your signature, wow.
sickjuice
Well-known member
imo the number of horror stories with trades on this website is dis-proportionate with the real world because this website is populated by lots of cheap **** who hire the absolute cheapest pos bottom of the barrel craigslist trunkslamming hacks and then when they get a **** product they rant about how trades don't know nothing. In reality 90% of trades people know their stuff and do good work.
as for your critique it looks like your typical diy work. Really I love the lb up against the wall, nice touch.
as for your critique it looks like your typical diy work. Really I love the lb up against the wall, nice touch.
Charles (in GA)
Well-known member
You had way too many to drinkIt can rub you the wrong way all you want.
Nope, don't drink.
Post #40
Post #46
Post #47
Post #48
Post #52
You come to the electrical forum on a Garage discussion group and the only thing you can offer when the OP asks for people to critique his work is that he should have hired a professional.
Charles
Well new guy "electrician" Eddie, you've sure screwed up this thread for OP !! 
You haven't even read enough GJ threads that Wyliesdiesel, Pattenp, NorCal, Charles in GA, MrMark, and other GJer's have patiently answered and coached NUMEROUS electrical questions that did in fact end up with the advice of "consult a pro" when appropriate. However, most frequently the poster is gathering general knowedge to pursue electrical work DONE BY PAID LICENSED ELECTRICIAN anyway . . . the GJ poster merely gathers knowledge so they know what SHOULD be done. I'd say GJ advice on electrical has been top notch and appropriate.
Just like it's legal for homeowner to do own plumbing, same true for electrical, and both might require permits/inspection to ensure proper workmanship. When a GJer is in over their head, it becomes clear and GJ advice is always consult a pro.
You haven't even read enough GJ threads that Wyliesdiesel, Pattenp, NorCal, Charles in GA, MrMark, and other GJer's have patiently answered and coached NUMEROUS electrical questions that did in fact end up with the advice of "consult a pro" when appropriate. However, most frequently the poster is gathering general knowedge to pursue electrical work DONE BY PAID LICENSED ELECTRICIAN anyway . . . the GJ poster merely gathers knowledge so they know what SHOULD be done. I'd say GJ advice on electrical has been top notch and appropriate.
Just like it's legal for homeowner to do own plumbing, same true for electrical, and both might require permits/inspection to ensure proper workmanship. When a GJer is in over their head, it becomes clear and GJ advice is always consult a pro.
Last edited:
pattenp
Well-known member
eddie, you should read the terms of use/service and registration for both sites. If the forums are limited to electrician tradesmen only the registration requirements would not state that an individual needs to be in a related electrical field or trade. Electrical professionals are not limited to practicing electricians.
Rainking, I apologize for letting your thread get out of hand once I saw what was happening.
Gentlemen, please get this thread back on track.
Thanks Eric
Gentlemen, please get this thread back on track.
Thanks Eric
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
After all the misfortunes i have had with mechanics, i now work on my own cars....its cheaper and i dont have to call the BAR because of a shop ripping me off!
But youre still beating around the bush.....
Now back to the topic....
MrMark
Well-known member
Well Wylie, on that ground bar issue, do you need to jumper a second bar with #6 or just rely on the buss bar screws that thread into the can? I recently put a ground bar kit on a Square D QO and just screwed it in as per instructions. The jumper would make it a better install though. What do you think?
pattenp
Well-known member
As long as the ground bars are properly bonded to the case there is no need to place a jumper between the bars. You can use a jumper if it makes you feel better.
pattenp
Well-known member
Thanks to those who have helped.
I know I am not a pro but I'm always willing to learn and do it correctly. I have learned so many things this way. With that said, I also know my limits.
I have since killed the 100amp breaker feeding to the garage until I can replace the SER cable as that seems to be the most serious thing. Do I need to get the mobile home feeder 2-2-2-4 AL? Also, since it is a detached garage, it needs it own grounding rods? I can't use the one from the main panel? Also, why two? I'm currently tied to the main panel for the neutral and ground but have the sub panel's ground isolated from the neutral. I didn't install the green nut to ground the neutral to the box.
I know I am not a pro but I'm always willing to learn and do it correctly. I have learned so many things this way. With that said, I also know my limits.
I have since killed the 100amp breaker feeding to the garage until I can replace the SER cable as that seems to be the most serious thing. Do I need to get the mobile home feeder 2-2-2-4 AL? Also, since it is a detached garage, it needs it own grounding rods? I can't use the one from the main panel? Also, why two? I'm currently tied to the main panel for the neutral and ground but have the sub panel's ground isolated from the neutral. I didn't install the green nut to ground the neutral to the box.
pattenp
Well-known member
You can use the 2-2-2-4 MHF but it needs to be in conduit all the way to the panel in the garage. The #2 MHF can have a max of 90A breaker feeding it. The 2 ground rods are needed at the garage and 2 are needed because of code requirements for minimal resistance to earth. The neutrals and grounds are bonded at the main panel and are isolated at the garage panel so you have that right. Use #6 bare copper for the ground rod wire.
Last edited:
Charles (in GA)
Well-known member
What I highlighted in blue is correct, just do it again with the proper wire/cable.
The MHF will work fine, just needs to be in conduit from box to box, cannot be exposed above ground anywhere.
While the code is pretty open on what kind of wire to use for the ground rods, #6 solid works well. Any smaller, and it is required to be protected in conduit where exposed. Be aware that the wire for the ground rods, must be un-interrupted from rod to rod to the panel's ground bar. The only approved "splicing" allowed is permanent connections using exothermic welding or other approved methods.
Charles
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
I too am to blame for the thread getting off track. Im sorry for that. Next time Im gonna just ignore the flame throwing!
No, Its not required to have a jumper wire. The screws are sufficient. Sometimes i will scrape paint off where the ground bar touches the panel....
No, Its not required to have a jumper wire. The screws are sufficient. Sometimes i will scrape paint off where the ground bar touches the panel....
TiredDude
Well-known member
Well, I have to say, I hired a "reputable" local company to install a new load center -main breaker last week. The company was recommended by a friend that owns a commercial electrical company. While they knew how to do things I would have had trouble with, they screwed up somethings that I never would have.
1 They switched out a bunch of 15amp breakers for 20amps. They said they based the breakers on the 12 awg wire at the box. Keep in mind this is a 65 year old house and the wiring is a) old, b) not up to THHN standards and who knows if up to 60* rating standards, c) some of the wires go through conduit and attic space requiring derating ,d) I know for a fact that at least one of the circuits has 14 awg wire in it.
2. They didn't ground or bond or whatever to my water service or gas.
3. They cut wire out of NM cable for splices in the box, which I would think is unacceptable given the lack of markings on the wire
4. They wrapped 12 awg wires with electrical tape to make white and green wires, which I don't think is code either.
So, if I had decided to diy the job, all of those points would have been covered. I expect would have had a tough time though getting all the wires into the box, would not have felt good about connecting into the poco lines, wiring the meter and flipping the circuits that first time. I also feel better from an insurance/resale perspective having that company name and insurance behind the job.
To me, a competent diy guy can do a better job than many a random hired guy - but would need to research to make absolutely sure they are doing everything correctly, get an inspection and ask the inspector when in doubt.
MrMark
Well-known member
Yes, it is not a good idea to just assume on an old house. I've had the same issue come up. I've seen 14 awg spliced in somewhere in the circuit that is buried. You look at the 12 awg in the panel and think you can put in a 20. That's why on an old house like yours you just have to go with what is at the panel.
On the water bond, yes they have to do that if a metal water pipe is present, gas too.
Your #3 is an interesting issue. I would match the type of wire coming into the box. You had those splices because the wires were not long enough to do your change over?
#4 is sloppy in my opinion if it was done for lack of the right colored wire and I personally think it's hack. The NEC does prohibit remarking wires under certain AWG in some cases. Others will know the exact code as I forget.
On the water bond, yes they have to do that if a metal water pipe is present, gas too.
Your #3 is an interesting issue. I would match the type of wire coming into the box. You had those splices because the wires were not long enough to do your change over?
#4 is sloppy in my opinion if it was done for lack of the right colored wire and I personally think it's hack. The NEC does prohibit remarking wires under certain AWG in some cases. Others will know the exact code as I forget.
TiredDude
Well-known member
Yeah, splices were needed - partly because the box was a lot bigger - I went with 40 slots while the old one had I think 20, with a lot tandem breakers.
Now that you mention it - it may have been appropriate to use the unmarked wire - so that it was clear that the rest of the runs were not THHN or whatever.
Good point.
You can't remark #12 except in NM/ some other cables?, used in a switch loop. All I can say is at least they marked it, I see all kinds of different colors hooked to neutral/ground bars
MrMark
Well-known member
As far as I know, right. You can obviously remark wires within cable assemblies as noted. As I recall, you cannot remark black to white for 6 AWG and smaller. This wouldn't apply to cable assemblies.
So, if the install used loose black 12 awg and marked it white that would not be kosher. I guess green would be OK. Why they wouldn't have white 12 AWG is another issue.
Last edited:
MrMark
Well-known member
I'm surprised it passed inspection without the water bond. That is one thing that the inspectors DO look for. Even though I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it, inspectors are very stringent on electrode bonding.
I think its 4awg
pattenp
Well-known member
The grounded conductor (neutral) and the equipment ground are the wires if #6 or smaller are not to be remarked. They are to have the appropriate color insulation. #4 and larger can be remarked. Neutral is to be white or grey and EGC is to be bare, green or green with yellow stripes.
TiredDude
Well-known member
Well, my inspector didn't seem too concerned, but I kind of pushed him and he did go into the crawl space to investigate - old guy, a little heavy, sweating and puffing to far side of crawl space.
He said there was an old clamp where the water service entered, but it wasn't connected to anything. Then he passed the installation anyway.
I was surprised he bothered to go in there if he wasn't going to enforce it. Not sure what he was thinking?
TiredDude
Well-known member
Also, I just looked at the wires I have in my walls - They are 12 awg marked type TW, which I believe is a 60* rated wire.
I don't have the temperature derate table but I ran it through an app that says it derates to 41% at 123*F!!!! That means the 12 awg doesn't even support a 15 amp breaker if it runs through my attic (it does), and they put a 20 on it. May as well not even have a breaker.
I don't have the temperature derate table but I ran it through an app that says it derates to 41% at 123*F!!!! That means the 12 awg doesn't even support a 15 amp breaker if it runs through my attic (it does), and they put a 20 on it. May as well not even have a breaker.
MrMark
Well-known member
Just put the 15's back on to play it safe then