Please Help Identify the Proper Meter Panel

[7th Kahuna]

My father has tasked me with identifying the proper meter panel for our new shop and I thought it would be simple until I arrived at the local supply house. I don't know who was more confused, me or the guy at the counter. I am hoping someone here can at least help me to identify the right questions.

Here is what I want to do:

The property has an existing single family home with a functionally obsolete meter and breaker panel. Eventually the entire house will be remodeled and enlarged. For now however, I believe it receives 80 amps (40 amps per pole). We are constructing a new 550 sf 'garage' on the back of the property. The garage will in fact be a small home shop with vintage woodworking and metal working tools including lathes, table saw, jointer, etc. The space will also have climate control.

My idea was to install a new meter panel in the shop building and convert / replace the panel at the house with a modern sub panel. That sub panel will be fed underground from the shop.

In addition to the house being remodeled, we are kicking around the idea of adding a second residential unit where the old garage currently stands. As a second unit, it would qualify for its own metered service.

So here is what we are thinking:

The service comes in overhead via a single mast.

I need a meter socket for the existing house and new shop. That socket would have a main disconnect and then two double-pole breakers feeding the two sub panels, one inside the new shop and one at the existing house. Within the shop, we would have a single sub panel for both lighting and equipment, intercepted by an e-mon d-mon to monitor usage. At the house, the new sub panel would replace the existing obsolete equipment. The existing service drop would be abandoned. This is all single phase of course.

With a mind toward the future, and in order to avoid tearing into our new shop building, I would like to leave a space for a second meter socket for the potential future second residential unit.

The seemingly obvious solution would be to install a meter panel with two socket locations now and just leave one blanked out for the time being. The other option would be to use a pair of 'stand alone' meter sockets connected into a utility side raceway and the service mast. The 'future' service would only require a main disconnect as it would feed a sub panel in the future 2nd unit.

We want to flush mount all this in the wall so we need to take both into account before finishing the framing.


The more I think about it, the more I like the raceway approach. I know you don't have all the specifics (nor do I as they are future use), but I am thinking 200 amps combined for the existing (remodeled) house AND shop building, but maybe only 100 amps for the future second unit (think apartment). If I use a single enclosure, I would be locked into providing 200 amps to each. Does that make any sort of sense? Might keep the cost down too as the parts are more common and I wouldn't need the 400 amp buss connecting the two meter sockets.

I don't know if the guy at the counter was thinking commercial rather than residential or if this is really that much more complicated than I realize. All I asked him for was an enclosure with to meter sockets. If it seems straight forward to you and you have a catalog at hand, I would happily accept any part numbers that come to mind. Mostly though I would just like to be able to walk back into the supply house and at least SOUND like I know what I am doing. Thanks.

The property is in Southern California and served by SoCal Edison.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Id talk talk to a local electrician,Without seeing a layout of the land and buildings its a little tough to give you a realistic plan to work off of.
That and california has their own way of doing things compared to nebraska in my experiance doing a little work around carmel/monterrey in the past.

 

[BillK]

What Z-max said and also my first call would be to the power company to see what they require. Typically everything up to and including the meter is their responsibility.

 

[CNGsaves]

^ ^ Ditto.

PoCo is NOT going to fly with idea of "extra" meter can that is not used. That would make it "Way Too Easy" to do the ole wire switch-er-roo and get free electricity !!!

Often in California with outdoor breaker panels, you have combo meter can/breaker panel.

Establish power LOADS and what you really need for wire and breaker panel.

 

[LXCam]

You will not be allowed to have two meters without a legal address associated with the second meter. Your best bet is to get a 200amp panel and then add / size your subpanels as needed. If you plan on subleasing a residence on the same property you can purchase a EMON/DMON meter and monitor the usage yourself.

 

[7th Kahuna]

Thanks everyone. If possible, I just want to allow for the space. I can talk to the utility planner again. If the raceway idea made sense, it would be very easy to block out space for the second meter socket even if it were not installed now. I've already allowed for the conduit to the second residential unit.

Id talk talk to a local electrician,Without seeing a layout of the land and buildings its a little tough to give you a realistic plan to work off of.
That and california has their own way of doing things compared to nebraska in my experiance doing a little work around carmel/monterrey in the past.

"california has their own way of doing things" yep, good or bad, we do!

^ ^ Ditto.

PoCo is NOT going to fly with idea of "extra" meter can that is not used. That would make it "Way Too Easy" to do the ole wire switch-er-roo and get free electricity !!!

Ah, a single socket doesn't seem to slow down the residential marijuana growers. They did a real number on a friend's rental. Took a few years to fully sort out the electrical again.

Interestingly, my childhood home had two sockets, I have no idea why. It was never a duplex. One had our meter in it, the other socket just had a glass plate over it.

You will not be allowed to have two meters without a legal address associated with the second meter. Your best bet is to get a 200amp panel and then add / size your subpanels as needed. If you plan on subleasing a residence on the same property you can purchase a EMON/DMON meter and monitor the usage yourself.

You are correct, we can't have two meters without a second legal address, however, we can get the address at such time as the second unit is permitted. I am not suggesting that I intend to have the second meter now (or necessarily the second socket wired), I just want to have a space for it without having to make a bunch of unnecessary repairs. The existing house is currently rented. We will be using the EMON/DMON to monitor our own shop use and credit the tenant accordingly. I suppose we could install a second EMON/DMON but does that just complicate things when a second meter is an option? Something to think about I suppose.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

If u want the capability for a second meter u could either get a utility side gutter or a dual meter main service panel.

What Z-max said and also my first call would be to the power company to see what they require. Typically everything up to and including the meter is their responsibility.

Actually, that depends on whether its an overhead or underground service. If overhead then the service entrance in the mast is the customers responsibility. Past that the only thing the PoCo is responsible for is the meter.

 

[hh76]

As others have said, call the utility.

Many will only allow certain models of meter cans.

I've installed multi meter cans with only one actual meters in use. Just needed to get the go ahead from the utility company. I just glassed over the unused sockets. Pretty typical for duplexes when only one unit is occupied.

 

[Norcal]

You need to consult with SCE, or whoever is the serving utility.

 

[dw1]

A quick Google Search, is this your power company?
http://www.kallin.com/ParkDrive/DWP Code.pdf

Look at section 2, some of the data is older, if this is your power company, as a few have stated above, call them and see what they offer (Start out free)

 

[iceman510]

When I upgraded my first house (25+ years ago...), the power company provided the new meter socket. I had to provide the conduit, wiring and weatherhead. They put in new wires from pole to weatherhead. Saved me a bunch of money.

 

[Norcal]

When I upgraded my first house (25+ years ago...), the power company provided the new meter socket. I had to provide the conduit, wiring and weatherhead. They put in new wires from pole to weatherhead. Saved me a bunch of money.

In CA the customer supplies a ring style meter can meeting EUSERC standards, PoCo does supply the meter and if UG the conductors to meter, or tap box, if OH they supply the triplex.

 

[7th Kahuna]

If u want the capability for a second meter u could either get a utility side gutter or a dual meter main service panel.

Actually, that depends on whether its an overhead or underground service. If overhead then the service entrance in the mast is the customers responsibility. Past that the only thing the PoCo is responsible for is the meter.

Thank you, new term, gutter rather than raceway. It is overhead and yes our responsibility.

I've installed multi meter cans with only one actual meters in use. Just needed to get the go ahead from the utility company. I just glassed over the unused sockets. Pretty typical for duplexes when only one unit is occupied.

That is what I am thinking but I will verify with SoCal Edison. They have already approved the new location and mast height.

I would hope the second meter would not be an issue. I am getting really tired of being told I can't do things because someone else might use it improperly. We had to go through the same thing to get a bathroom in the shop. The city worries that the bathroom might lead to an illegal conversion into living space. True, but does a shop not have a legitimate use for a bathroom?

A quick Google Search, is this your power company?
http://www.kallin.com/ParkDrive/DWP Code.pdf

Look at section 2, some of the data is older, if this is your power company, as a few have stated above, call them and see what they offer (Start out free)

Thanks for the link. It is a different power company but I appreciate the info just the same.

In CA the customer supplies a ring style meter can meeting EUSERC standards, PoCo does supply the meter and if UG the conductors to meter, or tap box, if OH they supply the triplex.

Norcal is correct. We set and wire the equipment, Edison transfers the drop and the meter unit to the new service point. I moved a panel when I was 15 or 16. Even transferred the drop from the old mast to the new mast and placed jumpers in the meter socket. Still have the (slightly) melted pliers to prove it! Not sure what my parents were thinking, then again, I'm not entirely sure I informed them of my plan.

 

[DC73]

I would hope the second meter would not be an issue.

Although I realize that California can be a different animal, PoCos go through this all the time. Your plan would be okay around here. There are ways to catch people who steal electricity. Most PoCos would "boot" the empty meter base, put a locking seal on it and then monitor the seal for tampering. Some would go ahead and install a meter, tie it to the address in question with no rate assigned (so no charges), and then monitor the meter for usage. At the point of first use, they would then take action to make sure someone was paying for it. Worst case, they might make you have a separate mast for each meter and they wouldn't provide the wire to the 2nd mast until you were ready for power.

Good luck.

DC

 

[7th Kahuna]

Although I realize that California can be a different animal, PoCos go through this all the time.

Good luck.

DC

Thanks DC.

I talked further with my dad last night and we are kind of leaning toward the idea of using two EMON/DMONs to monitor usage and billing the tenants accordingly. The downside of course is that if a tenant stops paying the rent, then as landlord, you are going to be out the cost of power as well. In a state like California where removing a delinquent tenant can take a while that could add considerable expense. In either case, I will talk to the utility planner again before we make the final decision.

This project has taken too long to get started, I don't want to slow it down over a future project that may or may not happen. I was just trying to think ahead and do a bit of pre-planning.

 

[Stuff]

Lots of places do not allow you to bill tenants via private meters so check that out first.

What is the downside of waiting until you have the rental unit built and running a completely new service feed then?

 

[DC73]

Thanks DC.

I talked further with my dad last night and we are kind of leaning toward the idea of using two EMON/DMONs to monitor usage and billing the tenants accordingly. The downside of course is that if a tenant stops paying the rent, then as landlord, you are going to be out the cost of power as well.

Check this out carefully. In some places (and this smells like something California would do), reselling power to a tenant puts you in the power business and subjects you to regulations you might not want any part of. Personally, I'd go with the plan to have a separate meter for the tenant.

DC

 

[7th Kahuna]

Lots of places do not allow you to bill tenants via private meters so check that out first.

What is the downside of waiting until you have the rental unit built and running a completely new service feed then?

Check this out carefully. In some places (and this smells like something California would do), reselling power to a tenant puts you in the power business and subjects you to regulations you might not want any part of. Personally, I'd go with the plan to have a separate meter for the tenant.

DC

Thank you both for the note about the potential pitfall in becoming a power company. I was blissfully unaware.

I know the State has been encouraging landlords to monitor tenant's water consumption and bill them for it as a way to reduce use during the drought. Still I know better than to assume any correlation between water and power where monopolies are concerned. I suspect this may not be a California issue however. We do get some things right here.

Stuff, The planner for the power company told me that they would only allow one service point for the property, regardless of the number of units / meters. As a result, should we decide to add the second unit in a couple years, I could find myself in the position of having to rip out a two year old panel and replace it, not to mention the damage to the building itself (it must all be flush mounted), and the inconvenience to our tenant in the original house, who would be without power for a day. This seems wholly unnecessary given that we have foreseen the issue and can address it now during construction of the garage shop.

Obviously more homework to do.