plomb date codes
- Thread starter Macduf
- Start date
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Todd and a few others at Tool Archives were the main proponents of a theory for the PLVMB USA tools found with letter-letter codes a few years ago, which they assert are wartime. It's not 100% foolproof, but a very compelling study. In that system, AC to FC would be January 1942 to June 1942. That's a pretty tight shot group, in my opinion, for all the pieces being original to each other and the box. I can see the assembly people drawing from bins of several months production.
Not to put too fine of a point on it, but most guys don't have date coded sets at all, let alone date coded sets that are within a few months of each other. And nobody judges other people's sets on date codes. It's nice when they're from the same period and when finishes match.
I happen to have a set like that, found altogether. But people cobble sets together building on a partial set or some of the handles and some of the sockets.
That's a REAL nice find.
Not to put too fine of a point on it, but most guys don't have date coded sets at all, let alone date coded sets that are within a few months of each other. And nobody judges other people's sets on date codes. It's nice when they're from the same period and when finishes match.
I happen to have a set like that, found altogether. But people cobble sets together building on a partial set or some of the handles and some of the sockets.
That's a REAL nice find.
d42jeep
Well-known member
I assume that the date codes that you are referring to are on the sockets. I’ve never been convinced that the wartime date code theory is valid. I’ve seen too many tools that are chrome plated supposedly made during the wartime chrome restrictions. Those pebble ratchets and flex head speeder are unlikely to have originally come in that box. Here is a picture of my 1/2” drive set that came as close as I could to matching the catalog 5400OC set listing with wartime tools.
-Don
-Don
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r_olson_06
Well-known member
Completing a whole set with war finish would an extremely tall order. The most common war finished stamped tools seem to be 3/4" 5 ring sockets. I am convinced that not all tools were stamped with the war finish marks. I know sockets, wrenches, ratchets and a few others were. I have yet to see any extensions with the mark. Maybe someone can shed some light on it and prove me wrong. Similar to the SK Wayne Knurled 1" socket that seems to be non existent.
Fair point. Hell I have found chrome plated WF stuff.
Looking for a Round Beam Plomb 1068 Double Box End Wrench
mustangSR70
Well-known member
I've got a War Finish 3/8" drive 5" extension, but to mix things up even more, it's actually a Wright Field, WF17, and actually is stamped WAR FINISH.
d42jeep
Well-known member
That’s very odd that a WF tool would be stamped War Finish because the popular theory is that the War Finish tools were intended for civilian sale to explain the less attractive finish necessitated by the chrome and other metal restrictions.
-Don
-Don
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Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
So, it's not a single find, you are cobbling a set together, the photo is how far you've gotten so far, you goal is a "correct" set, and what you meant by "the date codes run from AC to FC" is that six of the ten sockets you have have date codes from AC to FC, the others don't, and the universal joint is WAR FINISH.
"Correct" is subjectively in the eye of the beholder sometimes.
Pick out a 1/2-inch drive set from a 40's catalog and use it as a guide, as Don suggested. Sets could have more or less pieces, but that will give you the basic number and types of pieces by part number. Style becomes a matter to contend with in the 40's with handles and sockets only if you want all your handles to be the same (round grip, or flat Pebble grip) and your sockets to be the same (date coded or not). Personally, I don't consider that to even be in the realm of "correct" or "incorrect". That's a prerogative. Plomb introduced the fat Pebble style grip for ratchets and hinge handles in February 1944. They were making 54xx sockets with and without letter-letter date codes. And if you're not intent on it being a military set, a few "WAR FINISH" markings don't hurt, either. You could consider them placeholders. Maybe not like it came out of the factory door, but certainly not incorrect for the time period.
That's a keeper! Probably a mistake.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
I prefer to use softer caveats when discussing Todd's date code system, like the "not 100% foolproof" description I used above, because I have a hard time invalidating the otherwise overwhelming soundness and tightness of its logic (i.e., the large majority of pieces do match the time period, and the letter-letter coding fits so well for the four wartime years, not only within itself, but within the entire corpus of Plomb tools, that it's hard to imagine what else they could be signifying) with what could be production mistakes and anomalies.
Agreed on the early flex head speeder. Definitely disagree on the pebble ratchet.
As you may recall, I proved that Plomb introduced Pebble ratchets and hinge handles in early 1944 with research, and as a collector I found a rusty Plomb box at a flea market a few years ago. See Pic 1. After I removed all the non-Plomb tools, carefully cleaned the Plomb, and re-finished the box, I had a nice wartime Plomb 1/2-inch drive set, with wartime Pebble ratchet, wartime Pebble hinge handle, and wartime 54xx sockets, all with a nice dark wartime finish.
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d42jeep
Well-known member
From what I could see of the ratchets in the OP’s box, it looked to me like there was a 3/8” drive pebble rat in likely a wartime finish and the 1/2” drive pebble ratchet appeared to me to be chrome plated. That formed the basis for my statement about them probably being incorrect for that green 1/2” drive box. As you may recall, I have a green 3/8” drive set with a pebble ratchet and flex handle. In terms of the wartime date theory, you and I have had conversations about it over the years and my position hasn’t changed. When putting together my sets, I choose to pretty much ignore the codes although others may disagree.
-Don
-Don
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Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Roger on the chrome. On Todd's letter-letter date code system study/explanation, just restating my position, also unchanged, for others to consider.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Macduf,
Is the 5449 Pebble ratchet plated? Or plain steel finish? Now that I am home and looked over your photo again on a laptop instead of my phone, it looks like it might be glare from a light on the head. Hard to say from here. Post some photos of the sockets, too.
Is the 5449 Pebble ratchet plated? Or plain steel finish? Now that I am home and looked over your photo again on a laptop instead of my phone, it looks like it might be glare from a light on the head. Hard to say from here. Post some photos of the sockets, too.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Compared to the WAR FINISH uni joint, which is definitely natural steel finish, and that 5/8 swivel, which is definitely cadmium, the sockets look natural steel finish to me. Also the ratchets. But, hard to say from here.
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d42jeep
Well-known member
Here is my 1/2” drive pebble ratchet that has a plain steel finish. It could well be wartime. It is often difficult to tell shiny plain finish tools from chrome in pictures. That’s why I used unlikely rather than positively.
-Don
-Don
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d42jeep
Well-known member
In that case, you may have two different possibilities of 1/2” drive ratchets to use in your 1/2” drive set. Here are some catalog listings. The second picture is from a 1940 catalog and shows quite a few sets. The third picture is my set loaded with extras. You can make your set any way that you like. All of my extras were available from the manufacturer as open stock.
-Don
-Don
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Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
I was already convinced that the sockets, the extension, and the ratchet were plain steel. This finish was polished, but only once, so it can look dark but not flat with some sheen. Given your up-close-and-personal confirmation, I would build your set out around those pieces if I were you.
For your reference in future collecting, should you want to go that way, in case you don't have it (used to be on TA, not sure if it's up on TA 2.0 yet...), here is a summary of Tool Archives letter-letter dating, all based on empirical examples:
LA: December 1941
AB - LB: January 1942 - December 1942
AC - LC:- January 1943 - December 1943
AD - LD: January 1944 - December 1944
AE - ?E: January 1945 - ? 1945
And just for your context, there are no known letter-letter combinations outside of these. That kind of tight correlation, and coming directly on the heels of the pre-war date code system...
PLOMB LA - 7,8,9,0,1,2,3 (1927-1933)
PLVMB LA - 4,5,6,7,8 (1934-1938)
PLVMB USA - 9,0,1,2 (1939-1941)
...is the reason it's considered so compelling.
As I alluded to above, since they obviously made 54xx sockets and handles and pieces that were plain steel but not date-coded, one theory is that it may have just been one of the many factories they were operating. Another, that it was for a particular contract or customer.
I could be wrong, but I can't recall seeing a 1/2-in drive set (here on GJ anyway...) with all date-coded sockets, which would be a neat and no small feat to accomplish. But a mix of date-coded and regular 54xx sockets, all plain steel, would, again, NOT be considered incorrect.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Also, I am pretty sure I have a bunch of orphan Plomb wartime 1/2-inch drive pieces. I will check my stash and report back.
Username already in use
Well-known member
Out of curiosity, where do you put this 3/8 to 1/2 drive adaptor? I don't know if it's OC (oh) or 0C (zero)
Finish appears plain steel, so likely wartime.
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Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Possibly a "0C" (zero C), 1940, as you already suspect, Unaiu, but not plated. AA (and nobody else that I know of...) has offered any explanation for the letters in the 1934 to 1942 alpha-numeric system. Otherwise, I don't know. Todd may have more data or a better explanation.
RubiconJK
Well-known member
+1 for zero C 1940. I can't say with 100% confidence that this is the case but on sockets seems like I've seen mostly the alpha/alpha date codes on top of one another vs the earlier side by side of the numeric/alpha date codes.
Username already in use
Well-known member
I was thinking '40 as well, but with it not being chrome, it's an odd one. Maybe it sat on a shelf for a few years before properly plated and sold.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Good point on the orientation difference, Roob.
EDIT: Like my counterpoint on plated tools with the letter-letter codes foiling the letter-letter date code system as wartime, I don't think this one being un-plated is enough to foil the alpha-numeric prewar system. The possibilities for some tools being plated or not plated is just too random and underwhelming for that - in my opinion.
EDIT: Like my counterpoint on plated tools with the letter-letter codes foiling the letter-letter date code system as wartime, I don't think this one being un-plated is enough to foil the alpha-numeric prewar system. The possibilities for some tools being plated or not plated is just too random and underwhelming for that - in my opinion.
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Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Macduf,
Checked my extras. I have a couple 5480 speeders, both cad, a 5460 (2" extension) that may either be cad or dully plated, and a 5420-S (8 point 5/8") socket that is cad.
Checked my extras. I have a couple 5480 speeders, both cad, a 5460 (2" extension) that may either be cad or dully plated, and a 5420-S (8 point 5/8") socket that is cad.
Project 2501
Well-known member
I see that there is a ton of extra space in the second row of your socket tray. Is there some larger sockets that are supposed to fit in there?
d42jeep
Well-known member
That picture just was taken to match the set in the catalog. I’ve been adding to the set since 2018 and it is now quite full. It doesn’t match any set in the catalogs at this point, there are way too many extras.
-Don
-Don