Plomb Wrench ID Help

[r_olson_06]

Bought this on a whim thinking it may be an O series that I couldn't find in the catalogs. An eBay find with low resolutions pics. After closer look it appears to be a NPN (no part number) generation dating it before late 20s. The openings appear to be marked with AF measurements and the USS equivalent further down the shank. Sizes are marked on the opposite side of the name. Plomb is clear stamped and a faint CO a little distance to left of Plomb. The older wrenches were stamped Plomb Tool Co.
Here are my questions.
Is this Plomb or A. Plomb?
Does anyone know the purpose of this wrench as it does not seem to be part of the normal open end set?
Does anyone have access to catalogs this old?

Any help appreciated.

Looking for the following Plomb Pebbles Wrench 3061

 

[Private Lugnutz]

The openings appear to be marked with AF measurements and the USS equivalent further down the shank.

Roy,
Those are S.A.E. nut and bolt size equivalents (9/16" x 1/2") for 7/8" x 3/4" milled opening sizes, not U.S.S. nut and bolt size equivalents. Your wrench appears on page 8 of Plomb Catalog No. 6, which has been dated to 1925. Plomb called them "Open End Garage Wrenches," and "Light Weight Garage Wrenches." They had a set (No. OA) that went from 5/16" to 1-1/4" in 16ths without duplicating ends. And they offered a second set (No. OB) that went from 1/4" to 7/8" in five wrenches, No. 57, 58, 59, and 1214. Yours is the 1214 wrench and it shares the 3/4" end with the 59 wrench (5/8" x 3/4"). They are forged from round bar stock and have 22-1/2* angles as opposed to the typical 15* angles on engineers wrenches.

I'll post a few excerpts later. I'm in a rush right now.

 

[r_olson_06]

Here is a side by comparison.

Looking for the following Plomb Pebbles Wrench 3061

 

[r_olson_06]

The earlier wrench is thinner and tell edges are less rounded. The font looks the same.

Looking for the following Plomb Pebbles Wrench 3061

 

[r_olson_06]

Roy,
Those are S.A.E. nut and bolt size equivalents (9/16" x 1/2") for 7/8" x 3/4" milled opening sizes, not U.S.S. nut and bolt size equivalents. Your wrench appears on page 8 of Plomb Catalog No. 6, which has been dated to 1925. Plomb called them "Open End Garage Wrenches," and "Light Weight Garage Wrenches." They had a set (No. OA) that went from 5/16" to 1-1/4" in 16ths without duplicating ends. And they offered a second set (No. OB) that went from 1/4" to 7/8" in five wrenches, No. 57, 58, 59, and 1214. Yours is the 1214 wrench and it shares the 3/4" end with the 59 wrench (5/8" x 3/4"). They are forged from round bar stock and have 22-1/2* angles as opposed to the typical 15* angles on engineers wrenches.

I'll post a few excerpts later. I'm in a rush right now.

Thanks Lugz. I guess I didn't realize there was a difference to SAE and USS.

Looking for the following Plomb Pebbles Wrench 3061

 

[Private Lugnutz]

The earlier wrench is thinner and tell edges are less rounded. The font looks the same.

That makes perfect sense. They would've evolved in their processes and finish. (Apparently they went from smelting down Ford Model T axles in their dirt-floor shed for a chrome vanadium steel source for making wrenches to buying round bar stock. )

Do you have access to the 1925 catalog or should I make you some excerpts of the list and the figure of the wrenches?

I guess I didn't realize there was a difference to SAE and USS.

USS nuts and bolt heads were larger than SAE nuts and bolt heads of the same size fastener. USS is the reason for most of the popular /32nds openings on wrenches and sockets for that reason.

 

[r_olson_06]

That makes perfect sense. They would've evolved in their processes and finish. (Apparently they went from smelting down Ford Model T axles in their dirt-floor shed for a chrome vanadium steel source for making wrenches to buying round bar stock. )

Do you have access to the 1925 catalog or should I make you some excerpts of the list and the figure of the wrenches?


USS nuts and bolt heads were larger than SAE nuts and bolt heads of the same size fastener. USS is the reason for most of the popular /32nds openings on wrenches and sockets for that reason.

I don't have access to the catalog. Do you hava a digital copy you can send me?

Looking for the following Plomb Pebbles Wrench 3061

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Here are the pertinent excerpts...

 

[r_olson_06]

Here are the pertinent excerpts...

Thank you. You rock.

Looking for the following Plomb Pebbles Wrench 3061

 

[MR.X]

Can't really see it but almost looks like an ALAM standard marking in the middle of the shank.

 

[r_olson_06]

Can't really see it but almost looks like an ALAM standard marking in the middle of the shank.

There is a ALAM mark
Is that a factory mark? I thought it was an owner's mark.

Looking for the following Plomb Pebbles Wrench 3061

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Association of Licensed Automobile Manufacturers. That would help date your wrench. Henry Ford was their undoing. Someone (MR. X, also HeelSpur or ttpete) may know more, but I don't think they had any influence after 1911 or so.

 

[r_olson_06]

Association of Licensed Automobile Manufacturers. That would help date your wrench. Henry Ford was their undoing. Someone (MR. X, also HeelSpur or ttpete) may know more, but I don't think they had any influence after 1911 or so.

Wow. So the wrench maybe much older than I first thought.

Looking for the following Plomb Pebbles Wrench 3061

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Unless I'm wrong about how long ALAM lasted. No older than teens I suspect. But again, it's not really something I have studied.

 

[r_olson_06]

Didn't even notice the periods. Thought it was previous owners name.

Looking for the following Plomb Pebbles Wrench 3061

 

[MR.X]

I'm no expert but this is my take,..so far.....A.L.A.M. did lose their shady court case with Ford in 1911 but apparently some companies decided to continue marking some of their tools to show which a.l.a.m sized nuts and bolts they were compatible with, which of course makes sense. I think this practice continued on into the early 20's. AA has a Billings socket set ID'd as 20's where you can see mention of the sockets fitting S.A.E and A.L.A.M sizes marked on the inside lid. I'll bet there are quite a few GJ members with random ALAM stamped samples of other companies like Williams. I've got a few somewhere but I'm not ready to undertake that spelunkering expedition right now.

 

[r_olson_06]

I'm no expert but this is my take,..so far.....A.L.A.M. did lose their shady court case with Ford in 1911 but apparently some companies decided to continue marking some of their tools to show which a.l.a.m sized nuts and bolts they were compatible with, which of course makes sense. I think this practice continued on into the early 20's. AA has a Billings socket set ID'd as 20's where you can see mention of the sockets fitting S.A.E and A.L.A.M sizes marked on the inside lid. I'll bet there are quite a few GJ members with random ALAM stamped samples of other companies like Williams. I've got a few somewhere but I'm not ready to undertake that spelunkering expedition right now.

Thank you. I did read the wiki article that basically cuts off after the 1911 suit. Thank you for your take. I did notice that AA does have an example of the 1214 and juding by the article they are pretty proud of it.
It seems so odd that this wrench does not follow any of the part number schemes of the era. It is missing the Alpha character.

Thanks for noticing that ALAM stamp.

Looking for the following Plomb Pebbles Wrench 3061

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Same here. But I think mine are unbranded.

Elidas and another guy have those B&S woodbox socket sets. Posted recently at the end of the B&S thread, linked here, and scroll down. Out of all my early 20's socket sets and tools from major and minor mfgrs, none have A.L.A.M. markings on the pieces or the labeling.

I thought the A.L.A.M. standard was the same as S.A.E., unlike U.S.S. and hex cap. My understanding was it was a purely strategic thing. Similar to the way they rated Horsepower. Again, I could be wrong.

I'm putting further research on my "to do" list.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

It seems so odd that this wrench does not follow any of the part number schemes of the era.

It is odd. 16ths-based model number system, though, which is cool. 12/16ths (or 3/4") x 14/16ths (or 7/8"). Same as the other wrenches in the OA and OB sets.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I just checked all the wrench-to-hardware tables in all the earliest catalogs I have. Not that this is exhaustive, encyclopedic, or conclusive. Looks like Blackhawk may be the most helpful on this issue.

1912 Williams - U.S.S. and Hex Cap std's only, with references to Whitworth std on request. EDIT: Also A.L.A.M., esp. in the "Automobile" kit pouched sets
1931 Williams - U.S.S., Hex Cap, and S.A.E. only
(It's too bad I don't have access to anything earlier, or in between)

1914 Bonney - U.S.S. only
1923 Bonney - U.S.S. only
1925 Bonney - U.S.S., Hex Cap, and S.A.E.

1919 Blackhawk - U.S.S., Hex Cap, S.A.E., and A.L.A.M.
1926 Blackhawk - U.S.S., Hex Cap, and S.A.E.

Earliest B&S I have access to is 1934, unfortunately.

An edition of Machinery's Handbook in 1908, 1912, 1919, and 1921 would be helpful.

EDIT:

By the way, I was remembering correctly, mainly. S.A.E. and A.L.A.M. standards are almost identical, with two exceptions. An A.L.A.M. 7/16" nut/bolt wants an 11/16" milled opening (whereas an S.A.E. 7/16" nut/bolt wants a 5/8" milled opening), and an A.L.A.M. 3/4" nut/bolt wants a 1-1/8" milled opening (whereas an S.A.E. 3/4" nut/bolt wants a 1-1/16" milled opening).

 

[leg17]

I just checked all the wrench-to-hardware tables in all the earliest catalogs I have. Not that this is exhaustive, encyclopedic, or conclusive. Looks like Blackhawk may be the most helpful on this issue.

1912 Williams - U.S.S. and Hex Cap std's only, with references to Whitworth std on request.
1931 Williams - U.S.S., Hex Cap, and S.A.E.
(It's too bad I don't have access to anything earlier, or in between)

1914 Bonney - U.S.S. only
1923 Bonney - U.S.S. only
1925 Bonney - U.S.S., Hex Cap, and S.A.E.

1919 Blackhawk - U.S.S., Hex Cap, S.A.E., and A.L.A.M.
1926 Blackhawk - U.S.S., Hex Cap, and S.A.E.

Earliest B&S I have access to is 1934, unfortunately.

An edition of Machinery's Handbook in 1908, 1912, 1919, and 1921 would be helpful.

EDIT:

By the way, I was remembering correctly, mainly. S.A.E. and A.L.A.M. standards are almost identical, with two exceptions. An A.L.A.M. 7/16" nut/bolt wants an 11/16" milled opening (whereas an S.A.E. 7/16" nut/bolt wants a 5/8" milled opening), and an A.L.A.M. 3/4" nut/bolt wants a 1-1/8" milled opening (whereas an S.A.E. 3/4" nut/bolt wants a 1-1/16" milled opening).

Lugz
Check your 1912 Williams. Mine includes A.L.A.M. wrenches.
I believe your edit is correct. Almost the same as SAE, but not quite.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Lugz
Check your 1912 Williams. Mine includes A.L.A.M. wrenches.

Thanks for the prod, Leg! I was looking at all the major wrench tables, but now I see the A.L.A.M. std's cited for the pouched "Automobile" kit sets and the spark plug wrench. I will go back and edit. Do you any access to any Williams catalogs in the late 'Teens?

 

[leg17]

Thanks for the prod, Leg! I was looking at all the major wrench tables, but now I see the A.L.A.M. std's cited for the pouched "Automobile" kit sets and the spark plug wrench. I will go back and edit. Do you any access to any Williams catalogs in the late 'Teens?

No unfortunately. I have 1912 that Papaw copied to his site and a 1937.

 

[MR.X]

My Ducommun F cat. which is a 1921 "reprint 1924". Has size chart tables for Blackhawk and Billmont that include A.l.A.M sizes among others. The Williams section uses S.A.E. in their "automoble set" no. 5 but the illustration still shows "A.L.A.M Standard". The Mossberg and Walden sections don't appear to still have ALAM references but I might have missed something. The S.A.E Standard Taps "Size of drill for taps" table has (formerly A.L.A.M) printed below the S.A.E. The modest Plomb section includes a 3/4 X 7/8 openings "cap screw" wrench with no tool no. shown.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

...uses S.A.E. in their "automoble set" no. 5 but the illustration still shows "A.L.A.M Standard"...[ ]...has (formerly A.L.A.M) printed below the S.A.E.

Very telling of the last throes, thanks. I found a few 'history of the automobile' type books on-line that indicated A.L.A.M. had broken up almost immediately after Ford beat them in court or shortly thereafter, but I think that is owed to poor research, vagueness, or heroic Ford puffery. Your Ducommun catalog jibes with the other research angle I took last night. The last annual "Handbook of the Automobile" that A.L.A.M. published, as far as I could find, was 1922. I found a later one, in 1925, but they had changed their name to the National Automobile Chamber of Commerce.

 

[r_olson_06]

I have learned so much just listening to the theories purposed on here.
Thank you all for you input.

Looking for the following Plomb Pebbles Wrench 3061