Plug-On-Neutral for shed?

[Dave88LX]

I'm looking at what to use as a subpanel for my 12x20 2-story shed. Undecided If I'm going to try and run 60A or 90A out there. Still have to play with my circuit layouts.

I have seen many people like the SquareD QO series, so I was that's what I was aiming to use.

I was going to use this subpanel here, along with a separate bus bar to separate grounds and neutrals. Was going to run the double (mini) breakers so that I'd have 16 available circuits (not that I would need that many).
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D...t-Main-Lug-Load-Center-QO816L100SCP/100136882

As I do more research, I find that I need a separate main disconnect switch, and that my outlets need to be GFCI-protected. I priced out separate main disconnect switches, and they are pricey, I might as well just get a main breaker panel.

With the GFCI protection, the QO GFCI breakers are pricey; I could just use GFCI outlets and protect the rest in line that way. I then saw the QO Plug-on-Neutral boxes and saw the protected breakers for that box are a bit cheaper.

Any other thoughts? Thanks!

 

[Dave88LX]

This is the SquareD QO-series Plug-On-Neutral w/ 24 spaces.

Panel only for $91
http://www.lowes.com/pd/Square-D-24-Circuit-24-Space-100-Amp-Main-Breaker-Load-Center/50235649

Kit for $134 includes 3 x 20A and 2 x 30A QO breakers (unsure if they are ArcFault or not, need to look closer, but I imagine they are just regular).
http://www.lowes.com/pd/Square-D-24...-Main-Breaker-Load-Center-Value-Pack/50311189


If I am looking correctly, a QO 20A Plug-On-Neutral ArcFault breaker is $43, whereas a regular QO 20A ArcFault w/ pigtail is $39.

Plug-On-Neutral:
http://www.lowes.com/pd/Square-D-QO-20-Amp-1-Pole-Combination-Arc-Fault-Circuit-Breaker/50235629

Regular:
http://www.lowes.com/pd/Square-D-QO-20-Amp-1-Pole-Combination-Arc-Fault-Circuit-Breaker/3370636

 

[bczygan]

Why do you need arc fault or plug on neutral?

Bill

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yes if u ever have more than 6 breaker handles then u will need a main disconnect.

Dont bother fooling around with AFCIs.

All u need is GFCIs.

Dont forget grounding electrodes...

 

[theoldwizard1]

I think this is "legal", but one of the pros will have to comment.

Install a "standard" 240V (60A, 90A) 2-pole breaker in the smaller QO load center and feed the buss from that. That is your "disconnect". It probably needs to be labeled.

You have 6 slots left.

For GFCI coverage, just install a GFCI outlet as the first outlet on the circuit.

 

[Dave88LX]

Why do you need arc fault or plug on neutral?

Bill

I don't know if I do. I'm just trying to simplify things (and by that I mean complicate them).

Does an ArcFault breaker provide the same protection as a GFCI receptacle? Since I have to buy something new, the plug-on-neutral seemed like a neat concept (and neater looking, no pigtail), assuming the ArcFault breakers and GFCI receptacle(s) provide the same protection as the inspector wants me to have.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I don't know if I do. I'm just trying to simplify things (and by that I mean complicate them).

Does an ArcFault breaker provide the same protection as a GFCI receptacle? Since I have to buy something new, the plug-on-neutral seemed like a neat concept (and neater looking), assuming the ArcFault breakers and GFCI receptacle(s) provide the same protection as the inspector wants me to have.

NO! AFCIs and GFCIs are 2 different beasts. GFCIs are required in your application.

Dont bother with snake oil AFCIs...

 

[Dave88LX]

Yes if u ever have more than 6 breaker handles then u will need a main disconnect.

Dont bother fooling around with AFCIs.

All u need is GFCIs.

Dont forget grounding electrodes...

I do plan on having 6 or more, so I'll make sure it's got a disconnect.

What is the deal with AFCIs? Maybe I am misunderstanding their purpose. Or maybe they are just an unnecessary expense when a GFCI provides the same protection at a much lower cost.

I asked about grounds, the inspector said I only need one rod, which surprised me because I saw most people here are having to put two in.

 

[Dave88LX]

NO! AFCIs and GFCIs are 2 different beasts. GFCIs are required in your application.

Dont bother with snake oil AFCIs...

OK I will have to go read what the difference there is. The inspector said I could either use GFCIs or run them at the breaker themselves. I see now AFCI and GFCI provide different types of protection.

Looking further, I see the QO GFCI breakers -- $65 for a 20A!
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D...ole-GFCI-Circuit-Breaker-QO120GFICP/100013610

Maybe that's why you're suggesting to just use a GFCI receptacle instead.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I do plan on having 6 or more, so I'll make sure it's got a disconnect.

What is the deal with AFCIs? Maybe I am misunderstanding their purpose. Or maybe they are just an unnecessary expense when a GFCI provides the same protection at a much lower cost.

I asked about grounds, the inspector said I only need one rod, which surprised me because I saw most people here are having to put two in.

AFCIs provide arc fault protection and in many people's professional opinions they are snake oil.

GFCIs provide ground fault protection.

2 different animals. Where did u learn that they provide the same protection?

Code only requires 1 rod IF u can prove 25 ohms or less of resistance to earth. The equipment to do so is expensive so most just pound 2 in.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

OK I will have to go read what the difference there is. The inspector said I could either use GFCIs or run them at the breaker themselves. I see now AFCI and GFCI provide different types of protection.

Looking further, I see the QO GFCI breakers -- $65 for a 20A!
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D...ole-GFCI-Circuit-Breaker-QO120GFICP/100013610

Maybe that's why you're suggesting to just use a GFCI receptacle instead.

U can get AFCIs and GFCIs in breaker and receptacle form. Breakers being more expensive.

Some brands also sell combo AFCI/GFCI.

Forget about the AFCIs. Get GFCI outlets.

 

[theoldwizard1]

AFCIs provide arc fault protection and in many people's professional opinions they are snake oil.

I wonder just how many residential fires in the past 50 years have been caused by arcs that an AFCI would have protected against.

That and Tamper Resistant outlets. 5 grandchildren under 8 and I don't recall one of them even trying to remove the plastic safety plug or unplug a lamp or other appliance.

And I'm still alive after inserting a metal object into and outlet at a very tender age ! WOW !!

 

[Dave88LX]

2 different animals. Where did u learn that they provide the same protection?

I didn't learn it anywhere, unfortunately I just got the two confused when I was looking at having protection at the breaker instead of the first outlet. Mistake on my part. I should have been asking about GFCI breakers instead.

Code only requires 1 rod IF u can prove 25 ohms or less of resistance to earth. The equipment to do so is expensive so most just pound 2 in.

That's what I have heard too. When I asked him, he said "we know what the houses test at, so it's fine with just one rod" or something to that effect.

 

[Dave88LX]

I wonder just how many residential fires in the past 50 years have been caused by arcs that an AFCI would have protected against.

That and Tamper Resistant outlets. 5 grandchildren under 8 and I don't recall one of them even trying to remove the plastic safety plug or unplug a lamp or other appliance.

And I'm still alive after inserting a metal object into and outlet at a very tender age ! WOW !!

Our house was built with the cheapest tamper-resistant outlets they could probably find. Half the stuff falls out of often-used ones after two years.

 

[sberry]

You got to have a switch so a main breaker panel is the way to fly, simple is good and use gfci outlets.

 

[Dave88LX]

Excellent, thanks for the help everyone. I guess I was over-complicating things (as usual). I will throw up a fun electric plan for dissection in a couple days...I need to simplify that as well.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

I'd use a home line panel instead of the qo in the shed itself,breakers are generally much more affordable,as are the panels.

 

[dave*99]

And the supplied breakers are not plug on neutral because they are not GFCI or AFCI. They don't need access to the neutral.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

this thread is 7+ yrs old

 

[rlitman]

...afci's totally get bashed here, not sure why ...

Nuisance trips. They're running a microprocessor inside that listens to the noise on the circuit and trips when it hears a signal that it thinks is an arc. The problem is that it listens about as well as Alexa or Siri. And the manufacturers are constantly putting out newer firmwares that make the breakers you have obsolete (Siemens, you heard me). Leviton is the only one I'm aware of that allows for firmware updating without buying replacement breakers.

 

[PCustoms]

this thread is 7+ yrs old

Looks like the alias has been disappeared....

 

[Mr onetwo]

It's Alive!

 

[Steve.S]

Let's revive it!

this thread is 7+ yrs old