Plumbers - need your help.

[bochnak]

My main shutoff before the meter, in the basement, does not seal completely. I found this out when replacing galvanized supply lines to copper in several stages during the past few months.

I usually stuff bread into the pipes to provide a quick seal while sweating the pipes. This time it did not hold as I was working on a 3/4" "T" and 90°. The water came in during my last sweat joint when I was 90% done. Of course, it leaks.

I plan to put a shutoff close to this leak so I can fix it properly.

If I get rid of the water in the pipe, can I touch up the the joint with more solder? Should I cut it out and replace with new?

The rye bread clogged my lines to a sink and washer. Is there any other products or tips that may be better than what I am currently using?

Thanks,
Matt

 

[dipper]

You need to replace the main shutoff so that you can get the water turned off when you need to make repairs. You may have to have the water shut off at the street to be able to do it with confidence. Not sure if you need a plumber for that, but it's the right way to fix it. I don't know why people put bread in their copper pipe so soak up the water; it's bound to clog up at some point, especially the faucet aerators.
It's probably a 30 minute job for a plumber, then you can shut your water off and fix your joint.

 

[Kevin54]

I don't know why people put bread in their copper pipe so soak up the water; it's bound to clog up at some point, especially the faucet aerators.

Not hard to clean out though.

If I get rid of the water in the pipe, can I touch up the the joint with more solder? Should I cut it out and replace with new?

Cut it out and either replace with new or just clean it up and reuse. But don't try to solder over what is already existing. You will be asking for a leak later if you do. If you put a shutoff in and don't want to solder it, put in a compression fitting shutoff, then you can cut out the rest of your work to repair.

 

[OldCarGuy]

Replacing the main valve would be best. But if you don’t want to hire a plumber, see if either the water company or a plumber will lend you the valve handle extension. And turn the water off at the street yourself and change the valve. The nest best choice if the main valve has a ¾” copper pipe. With the faulty valve shut off, cut the pipe. Then tighten a new compression valve onto it. Then reconnect the rest of the lines and you’re good to go.

As for the Tee. I would remove the tee. Clean the pipes and tee with emery paper. Then re-solder the joints.

 

[kbs2244]

It has been my experience that anything before the meter the city wants to do.
They want to be sure there are no unmetered tees in the system.

 

[brantjs]

The rye bread clogged my lines to a sink and washer. Is there any other products or tips that may be better than what I am currently using?

Thanks,
Matt

They sell "plumber's bread" next to the solder and whatnot in the hardware store...it's some sort of dissolvable cellulose and goes in a little cleaner. You don't need to get the specialty stuff though. Regular (cheap) white bread works fine. Do not use any multi-grain, rye, etc. that has any sort of subtance to it (as you've seen, it will get stuck in your filters). The white bread will dissolve out once you get water flowing again, though it's still best if you remove the screens/filters in your faucets until it flushes through.

You cannot resolder an existing joint once water gets into it. Take it apart or put a new one in, making sure to keep the water out. In your case, I would shut it off from the street and put a new main valve in, otherwise every plumbing job you need to do will have the same scenario and difficulty keeping water out. Compression fittings can/do work, but I've had more difficulty getting them to seal without really torquing on them.

I just spent about 6 hours in my crawlspace on Sat. dealing with the same type of problem...I shut it off from the street, but it takes quite a while for the whole house to drain (no main shutoff or any other shutoffs anywhere in the house other than bathroom faucets and shower). I ended up with 1 joint out of 8 that didn't seal properly when I turned the water back on, so had to start over with one pipe.

 

[bochnak]

It has been my experience that anything before the meter the city wants to do.
They want to be sure there are no unmetered tees in the system.

I'll will check with my city, but really do not want them in the house right now.

If it comes down to it, I'll have my plumber buddy come over and swap it out. I was hoping to put it off until the basement demo/remodel next year since access is tight.

 

[Uncle Buck]

I guess I must be missing something; why not turn the water off at the meter with a plumbers key and be done with it till you are ready to go again?

 

[kbs2244]

If the leak is before the meter, you will have to turn it off at the street.
The takes the 8 foot long "street key."

 

[p-nor]

if you don't want to deal with shutting the water off in the street what i'd do is this. turn the vavle before the meter off and put a bucket under it. then remove the meter from the yoke. there should be unions on both sides. with the meter out, the leaking valve will leak into the bucket and not fill the lines. then you can install a full port ball valve just after the meter. now reinstall the meter and turn the first valve back on while keeping the new valve off. you can now work on the leak you have without any pesky water. you can get a fouled joint to take solder but if you're not good at it, you're much better just starting over. i would suggest just cutting it out and replacing it with a new fitting.








paul

 

[sixty4]

I use a compression ball valves when I can't get the water to stop to make a soder joint. They also make shark bite tees and els if you need them,,, no sodering required,
Best of luck!

 

[p-nor]

compression ball valves i can sort of get behind but i'm sorry, i can't recomend sharkbite fittings. this is what i do every day so i'm a bit biased but they are a hack-ish way to fix water lines and i never use them unless i'm coming back soon to do a correct repair. now, some guys swear by them but i've seen them fail so that's where i get my thoughts on them.







paul

 

[sixty4]

Well pro-press or pex maybe out for the guy. I do the **** for a living as well and have never had an issue with shark bites. This stuff gets tested before it ever hits the market thats why they put a UPC code on them.... Sorry you feel they are hackish. What do you have to back this up? Its a good out other than bread that ends up clogging the cartridge faucets and ceramic discs. I saw your response ,now if he removes the meter do you really thing he will be able to reuse the meter washers again? Also if the local water CO finds the meter has been tampered with they take no mercy here as well as most areas. Some depending on the size meter are not standard hose washer size. Or he could purchase a jet sweat kit and use it once, Oh well to each their own.

 

[JSharp]

The UPC code is a universal pricing code and nothing more.

 

[Vicegrip]

Jet Sweat. Turn off the valve in question cut the pipe 3 inches down from the cut off valve. Slip the Jet Sweat in and tighten. This will stop the water flow. Sweat a full flow ball valve in, remove the Jet Sweat through the open ball valve, close the new ball valve and you are done. http://www.brenelle.com/

Disassemble, clean, flux and redo the wet joint at least if you can.

 

[p-nor]

the UPC is the universal plumbing code and they have been aproved so they are legal. like i said, there are tons of guys that use them a lot and would use them even more if they were cheaper. i've seen a few leak and actually seen a few pull off of pipes. i don't know what happened, they weren't installed by me but i couldn't find a problem with how they were installed. you could see by the marks left by the teeth that they were installed fully. the pipes weren't cut with hacksaws, there were no burrs that i saw either. i guess just faulty fittings. propress is cool but the tool is $$$ and it'd have to be rented.


in reality, sharkbites are perfect for this situation because of the lack of tools and specific skills needed. i'm just uneasy about using them. if you were to use one, i'd at least recomend that it be in a area that isn't covered by drywall and can be seen if it were to leak. sorry for the controversy.







paul

 

[sixty4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Plumbing_Code

 

[p-nor]

geeze, i'm going to look like a jackass knocking on everyones suggestions but i've got another. be carefull with the jetsweats if the lines become pressurized. they are great to keep residual water from running back to you but if pressure is built up behind them they can shoot out of the line. i've actually seen a guy get hit straight in the chest with one because the dude sweating valve on didn't get it done quick enough and the pressure built up too high, too fast.








paul

 

[sixty4]

Thats OK!! Thats what we do around here help each other out.
What kind of work do you do residental or commerical? I own a small shop in CT. Thank god we have been busy to date. I hear alot of guys have slowed way down. Also it is ASTM that tests fittings and materials as well as UPC, its late Good night! also the original poster I hope it works out whatever way you go.

 

[p-nor]

i do anything but mostly residential service. it has slowed way down here in california. i'm real glad i don't do new construction, i'd probably be out of a job. there's a lot of info in this thread now, this should help out.


and as sixty4 said, messing with the meter is touch and go depending on the area. here, they're pretty lax and as long as it's not in backwards or missing, they don't make a fuss.






paul

 

[Terry Kennedy]

turn the vavle before the meter off and put a bucket under it. then remove the meter from the yoke.

A couple of comments to this and some previous posts:

1) If you're going to remove the meter, make sure that either a) the electric service is grounded on the street side of the meter or b) there is a bonding wire between both sides of the meter.

2) If your shutoff valve doesn't close completely, it may also develop problems such as leaking from the stem after being operated (ask me how I know this).

3) You may need replacement washers to get a good seal when re-attaching the meter. At least in my case (1" water service) they're a hard size to find.

4) Depending on the age of your service, there may not be a "street" shutoff valve, other than the tap to the water main (which will require excavation to access).

 

[bochnak]

Resolved my leak. Here is how I made out:

1. Cut pipe nearby and sweated in a valve. I used WHITE bread this time and only sweated one side. I blew the bread out afterwards.

2. Heated the leaky joint and pulled apart. Cleaned it up and re-soldered. Soldered the rest of the valve. I used mapp gas this time to speed things up.

3. Spend an hour cleaning rye bread out of laundry and utility sink valves, screens, and lines.

I'm tired, just got done cleaning the bread that got blasted everywhere. It looked like poo....LOL.

I'll take care of the main shutoff at a later time. Like I said, I can't have the city come in right now

Thanks for all the replies and suggestions!

-Matt

 

[Ezzie]

I had to relocate my meter & main shutoff when I refinished the basement a while ago. I called the city to come and do it but they couldn't shut the water off at the street valve (I think they said the valve was rusted open). They had something else that was trick I thought - they actually froze the water line where it pops up out of the floor (liquid nitrogen??) and then cut off the main valve and replaced it. In a few minutes, the line thawed out and we were good to go. Nice part is - they didn't charge me anything to come do it!!

 

[p-nor]

the freezing trick is pretty damned cool. what they use is compressed co2, nothing fancy at all. it works great but it's a pretty specialized tool.

on the bread, only white!! if you're going to use bread make sure it's plain ol' white bread.

i'm glad you got this solved without getting the city involved. now you can call them to replace the valve at your convenience.








paul

 

[bochnak]

the freezing trick is pretty damned cool. what they use is compressed co2, nothing fancy at all. it works great but it's a pretty specialized tool.

on the bread, only white!! if you're going to use bread make sure it's plain ol' white bread.

i'm glad you got this solved without getting the city involved. now you can call them to replace the valve at your convenience.
paul

Yup, only white bread. It works pretty good. This is my first home, and first kitchen remodel (hopefully ONLY one!!!), so there is a huge learning curve.

I asked for "plumber's bread" at Home Depot, and a worker recommended another product that works better. It looks like an egg that you shove into the pipe and simply apply heat to it's location after sweating to melt and dislodge it. I bought it, but used white bread since it is less expensive, and just opened the valve and let the bread blow out. I'll just return the product now that I am done.

 

[Coach James]

I saw the egg shaped things you heat to dissolve on Ask this Old House. The plumbing guy was suggesting them instead of bread.

Just curious, why the need to keep the city away fom your house?

Coach

 

[p-nor]

probably the same reason i haven't had my electrical service updated. i'm in the middle of an "unconforming" kitchen remodel. everything's legal, i just don't want the hassle and expense of permits and inspections.







paul

 

[rhandwor]

I have used tiger shark fittings in an emergency and installed a new gate valve. They are somewhat expensive but hold and don't blow off like a compression fitting can. I use map gas and bread also. I have hooked up an air line and blew out the water much quicker than draining.

 

[Junkman]

If you use white bread, then turn on the bath tub faucet. It doesn't clog like the other faucets and valves in the home. If you open the faucets, the water will drain faster. Just remember to close them before you turn on the water. You can usually buy the washers for the meters at a meter repair facility. Around here, if they find the seals broken, they charge you a penalty because water and sewer charges are very high. They have to do something to discourage people from removing the meter. I am glad that I have my own well. I installed a meter just to see how much water we use. After the first year, I stopped looking at it!! If anyone would like to purchase a meter, I have a few that I would sell.

 

[ddawg16]

probably the same reason i haven't had my electrical service updated. i'm in the middle of an "unconforming" kitchen remodel. everything's legal, i just don't want the hassle and expense of permits and inspections.

And when you go to sell the house, the prospective buyers check with the city to see if you had permits for that kitchen remodel....if not, one of three things will happen....they back out of the purchase, they get you to drop the price, or, they report it to the city....which is going to cost you a lot more than if you had done it right in the first place.

One of the first things I did to my house when we bought it was to replace the globe valve at the incomming line into the house with a 1/4 turn ball valve....globe valves just don't want to seal after a few years....the ball valve is so much easier....and it doesn't leak.

I have also installed a ball valve in the back section of the house....it lets me work on the bathroom plumbing without shutting down the whole house.

Never heard of the bread trick....I ususally just blow out the line to get the water out.

 

[rburke65]

UPC = Universal PRODUCT Code. It's used for tracking store inventory.