sberry
Banned
I agree with the have it concept here, you can use it now. You don't need to worry, hang it in the rafters, its going to blow any water along. As you went could eventually fab a little steel drop at the point it connects to the reel.
Plumbing air lines - small garage
- Thread starter ckucia
- Start date
heres a good read on compressor piping http://www.oldsmobility.com/old/air-compressor-piping.htm
I have a sketch of a great plumbing layout for a small shop, its designed for dry air and no pressure loss. I'll see if I can find it..
This same topic is getting gone over on several forums, I guess gettign close to winter everyone is trying to get it done before it gets real cold.. I actually saved the sketch from a post on weldingweb.
I would recommend adding a permanent line around your work bench, machine tools (drill press, mill or such), just for ease of use, and possibly find yourself an old 100gallon propane tank for a volume tank, you wont have much to worry about after that..
heres the basic sketch, it will give you a good idea... also running a full system something like this isnt cheap by any means, you could easily spend $200 on couplings and valves, and pipe.
I have a sketch of a great plumbing layout for a small shop, its designed for dry air and no pressure loss. I'll see if I can find it..
This same topic is getting gone over on several forums, I guess gettign close to winter everyone is trying to get it done before it gets real cold.. I actually saved the sketch from a post on weldingweb.
I would recommend adding a permanent line around your work bench, machine tools (drill press, mill or such), just for ease of use, and possibly find yourself an old 100gallon propane tank for a volume tank, you wont have much to worry about after that..
heres the basic sketch, it will give you a good idea... also running a full system something like this isnt cheap by any means, you could easily spend $200 on couplings and valves, and pipe.
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csp
Well-known member
Wow, another thread with sberry replying to himself instead of just editing existing posts for new thoughts......
I fail to see where the size of the garage has anything to do with changing the typical answers of how to plumb air lines, what materials to use, and what locations work well for drops.
I have two drops and one retractable air reel in a 30x36' garage and it meets all of my air needs. The hose reel lets me run all the way out on the pad in front of the garage as well.
I have quick connects are every outlet. I have no idea why a person working in their home garage wouldn't have them.
I fail to see where the size of the garage has anything to do with changing the typical answers of how to plumb air lines, what materials to use, and what locations work well for drops.
I have two drops and one retractable air reel in a 30x36' garage and it meets all of my air needs. The hose reel lets me run all the way out on the pad in front of the garage as well.
I have quick connects are every outlet. I have no idea why a person working in their home garage wouldn't have them.
I have a 24x30 and two drops is not enough for me.. I have a 49x38 cnc plasma table, bridgeport mill, drill press, and a 4x8 workbench and a 4x6 horzontial bandsaw , two drops just dont cut it.. I had two drops for years and struggled with hoses everywhere, and now I'm replumbing as my shop hasnt grown any, but my tool capacity has grown...
My main reason for upgrading is the cnc plasma table and a new 60amp plasma I just got, it likes constant 70psi air pressure. I was getting a pressure drop using 1/2" line. I'm putting it on a dedicated line with a desiccant filter.. I had a pneumatic engineer tell me to plumb my garage with 3/4" pipe and put in a volume tank (I'm using a 100ga propane tank), and add lengths of line for water traps which also add volume to the system. He said I could effectively increase my volume by 100% easily, which gives me more cutting time..
Yes its overkill, but its better than not having enough..
I can recommend to anyone to put in more of a system that you will need, for the simple fact you can do it once, and the price of fittings and pipe will only go up, so do it now and get it out of the way..
csp
Well-known member
Yep, it's going to be different for every person's needs. The size of the building has nothing to do with those needs or the methods/materials used to plumb it.
sberry
Banned
n my experience size does matter. No one thinks anyone should do without but a few here and a few there in a small garage goes along with the common theme of many of these threads. Reasonable, practical and affordable are3 all assets too and I am all for getting hoses off the floor, it has been a lifelong battle for me too.
I think its great Brucer is fixing up but will be disappointed that the 1/2 # pressure gain from changing pipe will be likely less than satisfying leap for the demands of a plasma cutter.
I suspect we were referring to a 100# lp tank also vs a 100 gallon?
I think its great Brucer is fixing up but will be disappointed that the 1/2 # pressure gain from changing pipe will be likely less than satisfying leap for the demands of a plasma cutter.
I suspect we were referring to a 100# lp tank also vs a 100 gallon?
sberry
Banned
Yes 100lb, tank not 100gal, my mistake.. I guess it will be around 25 gal. plus I'm using 120ft of 3/4" line which will also add to the volume. I also have a 120cu.ft argon bottle I can hook inline if I need that.
My compressor will run up to 100psi.. My internally regulated plasma cutter drops to 65psi on its gauge after a short cut, but when the pressure does drop at my plasma cutter my compressor doesnt kick on, yet my mainline pressure is still at 90psi. My main line is 1/2", my filter/regulator and desiccant dryer are currently 3/8" and the hose I have running from my desiccant filter to the plasma unit is also 3/8".. I feel this is where the problem is and going up to the 3/4" main line and using 1/2"npt components and hose will fix the problem, adding the volume was suggested and I have the tanks on hand so I'm going to do that, as it also helps for dryer air for the plasma cutter, painting, ceramic coating and powdercoating..
sberry
Banned
Give it a try but it might be a marginal effort to make up for poor compressor. Even with a big nozzle a plasma uses 8 cfm and most closer to 6. Even at 10 a 1/2 will deliver it with about a pound drop at 100 ft with 1/2 black pipe. A simple test would be to put a larger hose to it, kind of depends on how long they are now. Is there adjustment on the plas reg?
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bczygan
Well-known member
Shouldn't the main line slope back down toward the tank, rather than the way it is shown?
I have adjustment on the internal regulator from 65 to 90 psi..
My compressor rating is 15 scfm@40psi and 11.5scfm@90.. I run the main pressure at a conservative 100psi, I can turn it up to 125psi if I need to,,
The plasma manual says at minimum of 25ft torch lead length run 70psi operating pressure and for optimum performance at 60amps the manual says to run at 75psi at 5.2bar.. At 40amps, it says to run at 70psi,but shows no bar rating, which would be a little less than the 60amp settings...
I should have plenty of compressor. I could probably just put a bigger I.D hose on it and use 1/2"npt regulator filter and dryer and change to bigger quick connect fittings and be fine, but I need to replumb anyways since I added a mill and built the cnc plasma table plus I want another drop over by the service door. Adding the volume tank is more for getting out any moisture than adding volume, but adding volume is a plus, and its free..
bczygan
Well-known member
Seems backwards to me. You have moisture traps at the end of the system, as if you expect to have moisture running downhill all the way to the end.
If you slope the piping the other way, the condensed water will run back toward the compressor and you only need a moisture trap on the first vertical, right at the compressor.
And what's with the loop up over the main line? If it works, why the traps after it? I suspect is is not needed, especially if you reverse the main line slope.
Doesn't almost all the moisture in the air condense in the first part of the main line, as it cools, if it is long enough?
DangerousDan55
Well-known member
The take off on the top of the header is a better choice. As moisture(water or oil) condences back to to a liquidi, it will naturaly try to lay at the bottom of the sloping header. Then the "moisture" can run to the low points in the system, thus to the moisture drains.
So with moisture is on the bottom of the header & the air on the top of the header. the header would have to completely fill with moisture befor it would go through the connection at the top of the header.
This concept is exactly the same as for "oil mist"lubrication for pumps & motors in the Shell Refinery I worked at. They can collect & recycle the oil that condences in the header & flows to the low point drains. Each drop for the pumps comes off the top of the header to recieve oil mist, Not liquid.
Oil mist visualy looks like smoke, but is really micro size heated oil droplets suspended in a low air pressure heared system. Oil mist has been working for over 30 years.
So with moisture is on the bottom of the header & the air on the top of the header. the header would have to completely fill with moisture befor it would go through the connection at the top of the header.
This concept is exactly the same as for "oil mist"lubrication for pumps & motors in the Shell Refinery I worked at. They can collect & recycle the oil that condences in the header & flows to the low point drains. Each drop for the pumps comes off the top of the header to recieve oil mist, Not liquid.
Oil mist visualy looks like smoke, but is really micro size heated oil droplets suspended in a low air pressure heared system. Oil mist has been working for over 30 years.
sberry
Banned
Now we can see the problem. Turn the comp up to what it should be is a big start. Then turn the reg up a bit feeding to the plasma. Forget about all the amps stuff, it doesn't have much to do with this. You may want another drop but the rest of this is likely fine. You can put 2 inch lines and it still wont work any better if the comp is too low.
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I can turn the regulator up to 90 on the plasma cutter, and have, it doesnt matter, it still has a pressure drop to 65psi. When the pressure drops the mainline pressure is still right at 90psi.. Its a restriction problem, which I pointed out earlier..
arturo7
Well-known member
Sorry for the thread hijack, I have a quick, possibly stupid question on installing copper lines.
On a vertical line, will the solder flow up into the fitting? Or should these joints be pre-assembled?
I've seen/read a buncha how-tos on soldering copper, but nothing on installing a system.
thanks
On a vertical line, will the solder flow up into the fitting? Or should these joints be pre-assembled?
I've seen/read a buncha how-tos on soldering copper, but nothing on installing a system.
thanks
solder flows by capillary action no need to pre assemble . be sure to clean both the pipe & fitting really well and use solder paste. heat the fitting evenly and solder the joint. don't overheat either.
Don't agree. This time Sberry is right (though you have to endure his rambling). No use putting 72 octane fuel in Porsche and hoping it will run 150 mph when you decide to stomp the throttle.
Need to crank up compressor to keep airline system at high pressure - - - like 125 psi or 140 psi or 150 psi. Then at device have a regulator and control what air pressure you want. If device is an air hog (ie blaster, etc), then you can help yourself by having a buffer tank with stored pressure near the device. You will NOT have starvation using this method, even with 1/2" airline.
For moisture, the proper design is up and out of elevated main line so moisture stays in the line. See the thread by Strouty where mainline can be sloped either towards tank, or away from tank as long as you have traps to get the moisture out. Guru (GJ member MTW) in that thread discusses that goal is get moisture out early and often. His ideas are generally better suited for big systems as constantly running compressor will have lots of moisture so slope back to tank makes sense. Most drawings for small shops have airline sloped away from tank and trap/drip leg on end (see TPtools example drawing below).
Strouty thread for his airline system:
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=214394&highlight=airline
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arturo7
Well-known member
I finished my air lines tonight. Works pretty well.
The stiff hose went up without too much trouble. I have it fixed to the beam about every 12". I remembered I had a few spare air gauges, so I put in a T by the hose reel so I'd know if there was line pressure without having to walk the enormous 17' to the other side of the garage where the compressor is - I can't read the gauge from across the room. Probably overdue for new glasses, but that's another story.
Other than finding a brass T in my collection that had a casting flaw that leaked, which necessitated a trip to Home Depot just before they closed, it all went together pretty well. I have disconnects where the overhead hose attaches to the workbench, and where the port lines and drain lines attach to the compressor, so I can easily pull the compressor out if I need it elsewhere, or I can disconnect the workbench and pull it away from the wall (not sure why I'd need to, but ya never know...). Draining it is now a snap. I meant to pressurize it and see how well it would hold overnight, but I forgot and it's a little late to run the compressor now. I didn't notice any movement of the gauge or hear any hissing, so it'll likely work fine.
It's pretty underwhelming compared to most of the setups here, but it's a huge step forward in convenience for me, along with the garage reorg that's a couple days from being finished. Now that I have a reliable compressor and ports by the workbench and by where I work on the cars, I only need to grab a hose and an air tool (both of which have dedicated storage spaces now) and flip a switch and I'm in business. It's going to be a real luxury for me.
Many thanks to everyone who chimed in with advice! Couldn't have done it as well without your help.
The stiff hose went up without too much trouble. I have it fixed to the beam about every 12". I remembered I had a few spare air gauges, so I put in a T by the hose reel so I'd know if there was line pressure without having to walk the enormous 17' to the other side of the garage where the compressor is - I can't read the gauge from across the room. Probably overdue for new glasses, but that's another story.
Other than finding a brass T in my collection that had a casting flaw that leaked, which necessitated a trip to Home Depot just before they closed, it all went together pretty well. I have disconnects where the overhead hose attaches to the workbench, and where the port lines and drain lines attach to the compressor, so I can easily pull the compressor out if I need it elsewhere, or I can disconnect the workbench and pull it away from the wall (not sure why I'd need to, but ya never know...). Draining it is now a snap. I meant to pressurize it and see how well it would hold overnight, but I forgot and it's a little late to run the compressor now. I didn't notice any movement of the gauge or hear any hissing, so it'll likely work fine.
It's pretty underwhelming compared to most of the setups here, but it's a huge step forward in convenience for me, along with the garage reorg that's a couple days from being finished. Now that I have a reliable compressor and ports by the workbench and by where I work on the cars, I only need to grab a hose and an air tool (both of which have dedicated storage spaces now) and flip a switch and I'm in business. It's going to be a real luxury for me.
Many thanks to everyone who chimed in with advice! Couldn't have done it as well without your help.
malibulvr
Well-known member
Not mine but someone I know on another forum. His name is Rob and really goes the extra mile.
http://www.1969supersport.com/draw1.html
http://www.1969supersport.com/01airline.html
http://www.1969supersport.com/draw1.html
http://www.1969supersport.com/01airline.html
smokem2020
Well-known member
I ran a line on both sides of the garage. Just your normal 1/2" black iron. When I wanted an air line in the middle of my two garage doors, I ran a line from both sides. This made a loop in my air system. I'm thinking that air will travel in both sides making more air available in high cfm demands. Almost like having a larger single air line.