Plumbing and Toilets

[FMC1959]

I am not sure what section plumbing related questions go, if here is incorrect, I am sure a mod will move it to the correct spot.

So, a relatively simple question. A toilet blockage can be anywhere but usually, is the blockage in the toilet itself, or beyond the flange, somewhere down line?

If anyone has stats or percentages, eg...90% of the time it is the toilet, or only 10-15% of the time it is the toilet, it would be appreciated

 

[The Cobbler]

most blockages are in the toilet trap itself . a kids toy, a small comb, etc. they can be a ***** to get cleared .
a lazy flush from the beginning points to something in there

 

[four.cycle]

^ Yep. Sometimes you have to pull the thing up off the floor to remove whatever is obstructing it.
In this instance it was a hull plug from somebody's boat:

 

[PCustoms]

^ Yep. Sometimes you have to pull the thing up off the floor to remove whatever is obstructing it.
In this instance it was a hull plug from somebody's boat:

Many questions.....

 

[HoosierMark]

It’s easy to check where the clog is. Get a bucket of water and start pouring it in relatively quickly. If it swirls and empties the bowl, the clog is in the line, if it stays in the bowl the clog is in the toilet. My plumber tells me to plunge, plunge, plunge. He is right that usually works for me but it may take a lot of plunging. In the line or in the bowl the toilet plunge is often your best simplest method.

 

[yatg]

In the old days, it was POOP, WIPE, FLUSH

With these low flow toilets, you have to allocate your deposits ...

poop FLUSH poop FLUSH poop FLUSH wipe FLUSH wipe FLUSH wipe FLUSH

So much for saving water

 

[Stuart in MN]

If your sewer line is old, tree roots can work their way in through joints in the pipe and clog it.

 

[nadogail]

Many times I have pulled things from toilets that had not been chewed first. These included kids toys, sanitary napkins and celery sticks.

 

[kbuhagiar]

In the old days, it was POOP, WIPE, FLUSH

With these low flow toilets, you have to allocate your deposits ...

poop FLUSH poop FLUSH poop FLUSH wipe FLUSH wipe FLUSH wipe FLUSH

So much for saving water

I disagree...low flow toilet technology has drastically improved since the first 'giveaway' models from 20-odd-years ago.
(They were coined 'giveaways' because many municipal water agencies were giving these toilets to their customers for free to encourage water conservation, but many of the early low-flows were indeed awful.)

Based on actual experience, I've had ZERO problems with 12 years of nothing but LF toilets in all of my homes.

Compare that to at least 1 or 2 clogs a year during the previous 25 years of home ownership, when all we had were conventional old-school full-flow models.

Now, that being said, don't get me started on low-flow shower heads...

 

[carlaisle]

Need to reframe this question a bit. What is the most common cause of a backed up toilet? If your soil line(s) are properly sloped - and you'd be surprised how many are not - within the building envelope, it's almost always in the toilet itself. Outside the building envelope, it's almost always tree roots, especially in pre-plastic pipe construction.

Low flow toilets generally work well enough - as distinguished from actually working "well" - in modern construction with 3" lines. The problems are more often seen when installing low flow toilets into vintage construction. 1.6 gallons (or less) down a 3" line is not equal to 5+ gallons down a 4" line.

 

[geneg]

I disagree...low flow toilet technology has drastically improved since the first 'giveaway' models from 20-odd-years ago.
(They were coined 'giveaways' because many municipal water agencies were giving these toilets to their customers for free to encourage water conservation, but many of the early low-flows were indeed awful.)

Based on actual experience, I've had ZERO problems with 12 years of nothing but LF toilets in all of my homes.

Compare that to at least 1 or 2 clogs a year during the previous 25 years of home ownership, when all we had were conventional old-school full-flow models.

Now, that being said, don't get me started on low-flow shower heads...

Yes, the low flow technology has improved & the bowl does empty quickly. However, sometimes the smaller volume of water doesn't carry the waste as far or as fast as the old water wasters. So the problem can be further down stream. Especially on flatter slopes or DWV materials other than plastic.

As far as shower heads & some aerators, often the low flow restriction is just a washer or disk with a smaller hole. Open it up or leave it out for better results.

Back to the orig post- most suddenly occuring blockage is in the toilet. If it gradually gets worse, look at interior or exterior drain lines. Plunging is the first step, then a bowl snake, then hand or power rotary eel.

 

[carlaisle]

It’s easy to check where the clog is. Get a bucket of water and start pouring it in relatively quickly. If it swirls and empties the bowl, the clog is in the line, if it stays in the bowl the clog is in the toilet.

This doesn't work when the line is stopped after the toilet and the line is full.

 

[WildBill]

I would say 90% its in the toilet. Also this type is by far the best plunger I have ever used, we switched about 90 apartments over to these and dropped the emergency clogged toilet calls by around 75%. And we have tried at least three other types before this one that didn't help or made it worse. https://www.walmart.com/ip/ToiletSh...teel-Handle-Caddy-Holder-ne-k-Black/769673628

 

[reader2580]

In the old days, it was POOP, WIPE, FLUSH

With these low flow toilets, you have to allocate your deposits ...

poop FLUSH poop FLUSH poop FLUSH wipe FLUSH wipe FLUSH wipe FLUSH

You need a new toilet if you have to do that. I have had only low flow toilets since my first house in 2001. The toilet bowl empties just fine on a single flush.

 

[hobie18]

Plunger sop

Gently press, not trying to seal air too hard.
Lift plunger to pull back/unstick obstruction.
Should solve
If not repeat.

This prevents having to replace the seals and such.

 

[four.cycle]

Many questions.....

That was at my oldest sister's dance studio - she teaches ballet.

You aren't the only one who had questions about that.

 

[PCustoms]

That was at my oldest sister's dance studio - she teaches ballet.

You aren't the only one who had questions about that.

"Boat" plug....sure....

 

[micromind]

In my experience, the blockage is usually in the toilet, almost always down where it empties into the drain line.

Sometimes a plunger will clear it, often not, you'll need to remove the toilet from the floor.

 

[pb014]

If a plunger does not clear it try a closet auger.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=closet+auger+toilet&t=newext&atb=v269-1&ia=web
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=closet+auger+toilet&t=newext&atb=v269-1&ia=web

 

[nadogail]

If a plunger does not clear it try a closet auger.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=closet+auger+toilet&t=newext&atb=v269-1&ia=web
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=closet+auger+toilet&t=newext&atb=v269-1&ia=web

I keep a Closet Auger, for my rental properties, in my Service Van.

 

[pb014]

I also like that Walmart device. I may have to get one.

 

[FMC1959]

OK, so my line of questions was because my home has 2 toilets, both quite old, maybe 60's or 70's.

The 1 downstairs generally works quite well. The upstairs was getting blocked 3-4 times per month, and not from foreign material falling in (toys or boat plug!), but just big dumps.

When this would happen, I would get the plunger and that usually took care of the problem. I did not know this, but was going to ask, and then I saw hobie18 response; plunging like a madman is not good for the wax seal? Over time, I had a leak develop from the kitchen ceiling just below the toilet that is on the 2nd floor. I thought it was because the toilet did not feel solidly mounted, maybe just a slight, very slight rocking, which caused the wax ring to leak, or is hard plunging more likely the culprit?

Anyway, I changed the toilet for a 1 piece low flow (IIRC 1.1L/1.6L EDIT It is 4L & 6L) and thought it would be problematic. Instead, close to 2 months and it works fantastic.

My big question is, if in future this toilet were to plug up, I need to go very easy on the plunger or that is not a big deal?

BTW, I did not go wax, I went with this https://aqualoq.net/en/index.php . Anyone familiar with it?

 

[housewolf]

If it’s the waste pipe stopped up, you will put pressure on the bowl wax possibly causing it to leak. If it’s the bowl stopped up, plunging won’t increase the pressure on the wax.

Be careful with those closet augers, they can mar the bowl.

I’ve never worked as a service plumber but have done some warranty calls for stopped up toilets. It’s almost always something in the bowl. Often you’ll only think you’ve cleared it but only cleared what was caught up on the obstruction. Those are “repeat offenders”, they get stopped up regularly. Worst I ever had was a child’s toothbrush. After unstopping the same toilet a half dozen times, that lady cussed me up one side and down the other and insisted we replace her (colored) bowl. When I got it outside I could hear something rattling in it. Couldn’t get anything out or see anything so I busted the S-trap with a hammer and found her daughter’s toothbrush. She was very apologetic and tried to pay for the new toilet. I refused payment but insisted she take the toothbrush

 

[four.cycle]

^ The boat plug was stuck in the "S-Trap". Only after pulling the toilet up off the floor, removing the tank, and holding it upside-down and shaking it was I able to get it loose. I used a piece of coathanger wire to pry it out.

The drain pipe for the washing machine stopped up when I was a kid. It ran the entire length of the house, from the laudry room clear out through the north wall and into the septic tank drain field. Probably 80-100 feet total.
Somehow a safety pin found its way into the pipe and opened up. The stuff following it piled up, eventually stopping the water flow. I think I was maybe 7 or 8 years old. I remember it was after we got rid of the coal furnace.
I watched the plumber pull the pipe apart and fish that safety pin out of that pipe.

Q-Tips are another good one for that. Or the cardboard tubes some tampons were packed with.

Fun times.

 

[hobie18]

My experience with the toilet augers m started well. Worked like magic. Then not so well. Scratches, bad performance, leaks. Finally said no more. Maybe the old ones were perfectly sized. Maybe they were better made. Been at least a decade since I used one.

Story.

Hmmm. Water flows, but a single sheet of paper floats back up.

RealiW my crossword loving friens ...

Take toilet off, drain, sure enough, the missing pen from her back pocket...

Course now days Inuse the water absorber stuff ifnInhave to remove a toilet. Been a long time. I am careful with the plunger. Not like when we.were.kids.

Have to admit, hate to, but the plumber d rom this old house had spot-on advice.

 

[Stick-man]

Everyone that says the low flow toilets work on one flush must get a lot of ghost wipes! For everyone that has the ole sharpie marker type of bung, multiple flushes are a must.
I will say there really is a difference in toilets. My current house, they ****! The flush does not clean the bowl very well. My old house I had Gerber with the Sloan Flush Mate power flush, and those were the best toilets I have ever used.
I am looking for property to build my forever home and shop, and they will definitely have the Gerber/Sloan.

 

[FMC1959]

Everyone that says the low flow toilets work on one flush must get a lot of ghost wipes! For everyone that has the ole sharpie marker type of bung, multiple flushes are a must.
I will say there really is a difference in toilets. My current house, they ****! The flush does not clean the bowl very well. My old house I had Gerber with the Sloan Flush Mate power flush, and those were the best toilets I have ever used.
I am looking for property to build my forever home and shop, and they will definitely have the Gerber/Sloan.

After a day or 2 with the low flush toilet, I realized that when I push the flush button, it is best to press and hold the button for 1/2 a second. Don't pull your finger off the button like you just got a shock. By holding it down for a second (or less), it flushes very well.

It is a different concept. Traditional older toilets fill up with swirling water and then at a certain level the siphoning kicks in and it flushes.

The low flush just goes down without any fanfare and replace just enough water to what the previous level. I was impressed on how well it worked.

 

[FMC1959]

I don't know if anyone checked the link of the flange & rubber seal I posted above. My house being very old, does not have the sturdiest floors. Even with a perfect wax seal install, I was worried that within a (short) time, the minimal but still relevant floor movement could break the seal. As well as wax seals, it does not much give. Where as many of the newer rubber or other wax replacement systems, do have a bit of give; if there is minor movement, they should keep the seal. At least in theory.

I know that many old timer plumbers (like old timer electricians), believe strongly in the old tried and true ways. I know that 20+ years ago when these wax replacements came out, most were not good (CRAPpy should be the correct term). I believe the ones out today are, or should be better.

Anyone in the plumbing trade have any feedback on wax replacement systems?

 

[nadogail]

The purpose of low flow toilets is to conserve our supply of water.

 

[egdede]

Buy a ****** toilet get a ****** flush.

 

[Stick-man]

After a day or 2 with the low flush toilet, I realized that when I push the flush button, it is best to press and hold the button for 1/2 a second. Don't pull your finger off the button like you just got a shock. By holding it down for a second (or less), it flushes very well.

My home has the two half circle buttons on top of the tank lid. I now just press and hold both buttons for every flush. I was told one was for 1 and the other was for 2. I have tried one vs the other and cannot visually notice a difference between the two.

 

[Fav Onefour]

I have 18 toilets. Total variety pack of floor mount styles and one external wall mount. I have dual flush, low flush, big tank, and plain old normal old toilets. I have one oddball tipper flush too.

If they plug, it's the user. It's not the pipes. I cringe when I see a plunger next to the toilet. It simply means someone is forcing something through. If no one uses a plunger, there isn't much to maintain.

 

[FMC1959]

I have 18 toilets. Total variety pack of floor mount styles and one external wall mount. I have dual flush, low flush, big tank, and plain old normal old toilets. I have one oddball tipper flush too.

If they plug, it's the user. It's not the pipes. I cringe when I see a plunger next to the toilet. It simply means someone is forcing something through. If no one uses a plunger, there isn't much to maintain.

Can you go into more detail? Aside from a small toy, q-tip or other small foreign object, if it plugs, how is it the users fault?

 

[FMC1959]

My home has the two half circle buttons on top of the tank lid. I now just press and hold both buttons for every flush. I was told one was for 1 and the other was for 2. I have tried one vs the other and cannot visually notice a difference between the two.

I have the same button, it sort of looks like Ying & Yang the way the circle is divided.

Traditional style toilets that have a lever, when you push it down, when you reach the end of the lever travel, typically you just release...pretty much immediately. As I mentioned above, with these new low flush and also having the 2 different sized flushes, I find that just pushing and instantly letting go, does not flush adequately. Holding the button down for 1/2 to a full second, works much better.

And as you mentioned between 1 button and the other. Mine shows on the box specs, 4L and 6L, which is 50% more water. But like you, it is not that visually apparent that the 2nd button is delivering 50% more. Maybe the 2nd button is using more water, but it seems so minimal that I am not sure it is using more, or my brain thinks it is using more because it is supposed to.

Anyway, that is enough analytics on toilet flushes.

At least this is how mine seems to work best. As people say on GJ, YMMV.

 

[FMC1959]

I have 18 toilets. Total variety pack of floor mount styles and one external wall mount. I have dual flush, low flush, big tank, and plain old normal old toilets. I have one oddball tipper flush too.

If they plug, it's the user. It's not the pipes. I cringe when I see a plunger next to the toilet. It simply means someone is forcing something through. If no one uses a plunger, there isn't much to maintain.

Is this just your home?

 

[FMC1959]

Where I was living 30 years ago, my neighbor was a plumber. He told me whenever he removed a toilet and it was to be thrown out, he would carefully checkout the toilet trap, taking a hammer to it, carefully breaking the sides.

He always said not all toilets or designed the same. Some are bad designs that are more likely to have blockages. Most have a "regular" flow. and the odd one, according to him, had well designed evacuation system, which should rarely ever have blockages.

I never asked for more details, just deferring to him being a Plummer and he should know what he is talking about.

The one I just changed blocked often, as mentioned, 3-4 times per month. I just threw it in the trash bin. I never thought to check if there was anything lodged somewhere, such as four.cycle mentions above, causing these frequent blockages. I have been living in this hose for 5 years now and it was always like this. I just assumed it was a crappy toilet design.

 

[PCustoms]

@FMC1959 I had one that started being problematic about 5 years after it was installed. Eventually figured out the siphon/jet in the bottom of the bowl wasn't being cleaned, switched to an acidic bowl cleaner once a month and no problems since. Normal cleaners are fine for weekly cleaning, but weren't working good enough my water chemist apparently.

 

[Fav Onefour]

Can you go into more detail? Aside from a small toy, q-tip or other small foreign object, if it plugs, how is it the users fault?

Paper towels are the biggest culprit. Wet wipes and lots of TP are also a bad combination.
I have long term renters. Sometimes it takes me a little time to "teach" them how to use a toilet.

Here is one scenario description. This family complained about their toilet being a problem. We went through scenarios about how to alleviate the problem. I knew what caused the problem, but they didn't believe it was the issue. Denial is a fantastic dealing mechanism.

I told them I'd let them pick the toilet they wanted and I'd install the thing. They were proud of their choice. When I did the installation, I showed them how a toilet trap assembly works. It was pretty easy with the old toilet. I broke it apart so they could see the trap piping. I told them everything would work if they simply used TP. (Nobody admitted to using paper towels.)
The new toilet made it three days before they plugged the thing. I was doing yard work and one of them came to get my help. I calmly showed them how to dig out the paper towels with a snake and their arm. I also explained how the snake could make marks in their new toilet. Then I grabbed the roll of paper towels off their towel shelf and said they wouldn't need to do anything if they kept paper towels outside the bathroom. It's been three years without issues.

I've found combs a couple times, pez dispenser, and a plastic tub toy. They have all been caught in the trap. Some have had wet wipes hanging from them. I have not found any with TP.

Buddies kid plugged up their throne pretty good. They asked me how to get it going because the plunger wasn't working. We went through the possible items stuck. His kid said he didn't feel good and used a lot of TP. That was the only thing, but he used a lot. I told them to let the TP soak into mush. When the water started to drop on it's own, the toilet would be fine without the plunger.

I've had two mainlines slow down with tree roots. Those plumbing issues were not confined to the toilets. Big laundry loads indicated problems before the toilets acted up.

I deal with a lot of ****.
I don't have time for excuses about why or why not the toilet isn't working. The basic setup is a gravity system. There's nothing too complicated about how it works.

 

[Stick-man]

I have the same button, it sort of looks like Ying & Yang the way the circle is divided.

Traditional style toilets that have a lever, when you push it down, when you reach the end of the lever travel, typically you just release...pretty much immediately. As I mentioned above, with these new low flush and also having the 2 different sized flushes, I find that just pushing and instantly letting go, does not flush adequately. Holding the button down for 1/2 to a full second, works much better.

And as you mentioned between 1 button and the other. Mine shows on the box specs, 4L and 6L, which is 50% more water. But like you, it is not that visually apparent that the 2nd button is delivering 50% more. Maybe the 2nd button is using more water, but it seems so minimal that I am not sure it is using more, or my brain thinks it is using more because it is supposed to.

Anyway, that is enough analytics on toilet flushes.

At least this is how mine seems to work best. As people say on GJ, YMMV.

I couldn't have described it better myself. And yes, although I press both buttons simultaneously, I end up holding them for at least two seconds after they hit bottom. You will totally get a half flush if you don't. Don't ya just love regulations?LOL

 

[hobie18]

@FMC1959 I had one that started being problematic about 5 years after it was installed. Eventually figured out the siphon/jet in the bottom of the bowl wasn't being cleaned, switched to an acidic bowl cleaner once a month and no problems since. Normal cleaners are fine for weekly cleaning, but weren't working good enough my water chemist apparently.

Very true. Pipe work outside a friend's place. Eventually made the smaller pipes clog.
Acid and such to clear the "siphon starter" and all is well.