Plumbing compressor, copper/black pipe?

[chub chub]

After reading a bunch of info on other threads I'd still like more opinions. I'm planing the plumbing for my compressor and looking at my options. I have never soldered copper tubing before and would like to know if this is a job suited for a virgin? Would this kit be adequate for the job...

http://www.bernzomatic.com/item.html?id=12

I am on a budget that is already blown so I'm not in the position to buy the quality tools I prefer. Do you think I can get it done with this or am I better off just going with the black pipe?

Compressor is a speedaire 5hp two stage 80 gallon that will be used for home auto restoration and modification. Die grinders, cut off wheels, DA sanders, etc.

 

[onewaydave]

Both will require skills,technique and tools. I would be frustrated with the Pencil flame. Long lines of copper tubing act as a heat sink and that flame may, at times, not put out enough heat to overcome that. I think a standard plumber's propane torch would do a faster and better job. The only difference is the amount of gas allowed out the tip and the amount of heat spread over a larger or smaller area.

Dave.

 

[Tim The Tool Man]

I recommend you go with copper. Buy a cheap torch and a tank of Mapp gas (yellow). Scuff the joints ( male and female), use a tinning flux and you'll be soldering like a pro.

 

[HAY YOU]

Do this job only once, use black pipe.

 

[MrMark]

Negative on that torch. It is not hot enough to do 3/4 fast enough to avoid localized overheating. You would have a tendency to burn the flux. The most important part of soldering is planning and cleaning. You need to get on the fitting working the flame all the way around preheating the tubing too and finish with your heat at the base of the fitting cup. Go around the joint with the solder (not just one spot like hacks do) and work the flame so that it is 180 degrees from the solder as you go around.

Black pipe with the threading and the Chinese fittings available today (even the plumbing shops have Chinese fittings same as Home Depot) is a negative for me. Too many problems. I would only use copper.

 

[MrMark]

I recommend you go with copper. Buy a cheap torch and a tank of Mapp gas (yellow). Scuff the joints ( male and female), use a tinning flux and you'll be soldering like a pro.

way oversimplified. Cheap torch with Mapp is worthless. Soldering is an art and you don't scuff joints. I recommend looking at the Copper Industry Manual which goes into great detail on how to correctly solder.

 

[rburke65]

I vote for the black pipe! Not that hard.

 

[Tim The Tool Man]

way oversimplified. Cheap torch with Mapp is worthless. Soldering is an art and you don't scuff joints. I recommend looking at the Copper Industry Manual which goes into great detail on how to correctly solder.

???????????

I solder copper everyday. For a beginner, Mapp gas is the way to go, it produces a much hotter flame. Too cool a flame or not allowing the flame to get the joint hot enough is the primary cause of bad joints for the beginner. Yes, you are supposed to scuff (with emery cloth or a purpose made wire brush) the joints. I said cheap torch because the OP said he is on a budget. Yes I over simplified, because the OP asked what to use, NOT how to do the job.

This article is a much easier read than the Copper Industry Manual if you want to learn basic soldering. Do a quick search of YouTube as well...

Good luck

 

[CNGsaves]

I'd vote for Tim The Tool Man . . . check out his shop . . .
. . . . Nice airline system!!!

As for OP. . . . either copper of BP if you do it right . . . no hack jobs!!

 

[ford33]

Think about where you want to run the piping and make a list of pipe and fittings. Keep it simple. You can always add more copper pipe later.

I used copper pipe 3/4 inch diameter with green stripe, type "K". This is a thicker wall pipe but has the same outside diameter as thinner wall copper pipe.

Buy many extra fittings so you can continue working on the piping and not have to stop and go back to the store for that one extra fitting. Return the unused fittings when you are done.

I soldered it with an inexpensive torch set, flux, solder and mapp gas. It worked fine and was easy to do once you get used to soldering. Practice soldering some fittings and then taking them apart. You will also need a hack saw to cut the pipe and a small file to remove the burrs from the cut. Also a pipe brush sized for the pipe will make scuffing and cleaning easier.

Don't forget to buy hangers to mount the pipe to the wall and some quick disconnects to attach your tool hoses.

Take your time and you will be rewarded with a sturdy, safe and good looking compressed air network.

 

[Angelfire]

Soldering is pretty easy. That being said, for compressed gases, it should be brazed for better effectiveness. That being said, many have soldered without issue. Personally I hate threaded fittings so will be going copper vs black pipe.

 

[bfarroo]

We use copper every day at work for airlines without issues. Black pipe is ok but if you have any moisture in the lines the pipe will rot from the inside out. We had all sorts of issues where I worked previously. The airlines in one section of the plant were done in black pipe and after 7 years or so pipes just started breaking everywhere. All of the pipe was removed and replaced with galvanized which is what was used in the rest of the plant. I'm planning on copper in my shop. Just buy what you can afford and piece it together as you can afford. It's easy to cut and fittings are cheap. Any non-pencil torch will work fine to solder the pipe. As stated by others the yellow map gas will burn hotter and can make it easier to solder but the standard blue tank will work fine. They sell wire brushes specific for cleaning the pipe before soldering. Use flux on the joint before putting it together, heat, and flow the solder around the joint. There are may videos on the internet on how to do it and there's only one way to learn. You should be able to find a friend or coworker that knows how to do it and could give you a hand with a few joints before turning you loose.

 

[plym49]

The torch in the link will work perfectly fine for 3/4" copper - even larger. No need for MAPP either.

The key to sweating copper is to get the inside and outside mating surfaces freshly clean. You can get a nice wire brush that handles inside and outside for 1/2" and 3/4" any place tools are sold. Get a container of flux - apply with an acid brush. You can use lead solder for your air lines - it works easier than the lead-free solder used for potable water lines. Wipe the joints to look like a pro.

 

[CNGsaves]

We use copper every day at work for airlines without issues. Black pipe is ok but if you have any moisture in the lines the pipe will rot from the inside out. We had all sorts of issues where I worked previously. The airlines in one section of the plant were done in black pipe and after 7 years or so pipes just started breaking everywhere. All of the pipe was removed and replaced with galvanized which is what was used in the rest of the plant. I'm planning on copper in my shop. Just buy what you can afford and piece it together as you can afford. It's easy to cut and fittings are cheap. Any non-pencil torch will work fine to solder the pipe. As stated by others the yellow map gas will burn hotter and can make it easier to solder but the standard blue tank will work fine. They sell wire brushes specific for cleaning the pipe before soldering. Use flux on the joint before putting it together, heat, and flow the solder around the joint. There are may videos on the internet on how to do it and there's only one way to learn. You should be able to find a friend or coworker that knows how to do it and could give you a hand with a few joints before turning you loose.

Sounds like your "airline" wasn't an airline at all . . it was WATER line!!

No blackpipe airline system should EVER just "break apart everywhere" as you say above.

That employer sounds like OSHA accident waiting to happen!!! Did they have any concept of a DRYER??

 

[sberry]

Use 1/2 for a home garage system.

 

[eriksalo]

I installed copper pipes in my shop about 5 years ago. I made about ten drops and put ball valves on each. Threading black pipe seemed like unnecessary complexity to me and I liked the flexibility and rust free operation copper allowed.

I also made sure to slope everything and put ball valve drains at the bottom of each long run.

I read about brazing and silver solder and high grade copper. Some research bore out that these techniques are better but I went with standard home depot copper, torch and solder. I soldered ~280 joints and only one of them leaked when I pressurized the system.

The system has been in operation for about 5 years and the copper pipes and joints have given me no trouble. As far as I know, all of those ~280 joints are still air tight. I live in Colorado so the seasonal temperature swings are relatively significant.

Since I installed the system, my big compressor has blown two Sinpac start contactors and half a dozen quick connect fittings have failed. Several hoses have been worn out but the copper has been solid and maintenance free.

 

[familytruckster]

Use the cheap orange $15 a roll air hose, some brass barb fittings and little hose clamps, some tee's if needed, plumbing u clips to mount to walls. Way easier and cheaper than black pipe or copper. My friend "temporarily" put this set-up in his garage 15 years ago and hasn't had any problems nor any need to replace it.

This is how I'm going to plumb my garage.

 

[csp]

Some of you guys could overcomplicate taking a ****.

 

[Albiemanmike]

I installed copper pipes in my shop about 5 years ago. I made about ten drops and put ball valves on each. Threading black pipe seemed like unnecessary complexity to me and I liked the flexibility and rust free operation copper allowed.

I also made sure to slope everything and put ball valve drains at the bottom of each long run.

I read about brazing and silver solder and high grade copper. Some research bore out that these techniques are better but I went with standard home depot copper, torch and solder. I soldered ~280 joints and only one of them leaked when I pressurized the system.

The system has been in operation for about 5 years and the copper pipes and joints have given me no trouble. As far as I know, all of those ~280 joints are still air tight. I live in Colorado so the seasonal temperature swings are relatively significant.

Since I installed the system, my big compressor has blown two Sinpac start contactors and half a dozen quick connect fittings have failed. Several hoses have been worn out but the copper has been solid and maintenance free.

Now that is what I am talking about real world experience that has stood the test of time. Thanks for that respsonse I was looking for that kind of feedback as I have been thinking about running some piping myself in the garage.

 

[porschedude996TT]

This has been a topic of discussion for many posts. I'm surprised that no one used the devil three letters.

Stand back everyone, but here goes...

Why not PVC?

Now watch the fur fly!

LOL

 

[CNGsaves]

This has been a topic of discussion for many posts. I'm surprised that no one used the devil three letters.

Stand back everyone, but here goes...

Why not PVC?

Now watch the fur fly!

LOL

Now come on . . . don't go there!

ANALOGY: You're at parts department looking for parts for 996, and
. . . . . . . . they offer you some Yugo brake calipers . . . interested??

 

[ddawg16]

My opinion.....

If it's a straight run....not a bunch of 90's or turns....black pipe....especially if you can buy pre-cut lengths.

But if your going to be doing a lot of cutting and threading and you don't have a pipe machine....copper.

I did copper....nice thing about copper is that you can pretty much do it all in one night....bunch of 90's and Tee's...sections of pipe....pipe cutter....mapp gas with a 'good' torch head (not a cheapy)...6-pak of beer and good tunes.....

 

[waltmcq]

Make everyone happy, put black pipe down one side and copper down the other.

 

[chub chub]

Thanks to everyone for the opinions. Ive decided to go with copper, partly because I have never done it before and it will be good to learn. I'll start with a small manifold I can afford to build and add to it if I have a problem with too much water in the final filter.

 

[chub chub]

Would this hose work for connecting the tank to the copper manifold set up...

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000PDO8KU/?tag=atomicindus08-20


?

 

[PugetDude]

Would this hose work for connecting the tank to the copper manifold set up...

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000PDO8KU/?tag=atomicindus08-20


?

Sure, but why spend $25 on a $2 hose?

 

[rob in nh]

my father used black iron pipe, that was about 45 years ago and it is still working without leaks.

 

[papabil]

Some of you guys could overcomplicate taking a ****.

x2...

 

[Charles (in GA)]

You can use lead solder for your air lines - it works easier than the lead-free solder used for potable water lines. Wipe the joints to look like a pro.

This is where referencing the Copper Tube Handbook is worth it. If you look at joint strengths with different types of solder, braze, etc. the lead solder is at the bottom of the list, and would be marginal for a compressed air system. Not saying it would not work, just that the safety margin is minimal compared to non-lead solders.

http://www.copper.org/publications/pub_list/pdf/copper_tube_handbook.pdf

Go page 28 of the book, Table 4a, Up to one inch pipe for lead solder (50-50), at 100°F they give it a 200 psi max working pressure. Sure that is quite a bit, but usually you want a safety factor of 3X or 4X. Go to 95-5 solder and the joint strength jumps to over 1000 psi at that same 100°F.

Charles

 

[NHBandit]

Call me old school. 1/2" Black iron pipe for the last 3 shops I set up. Never a problem. Left my compressor off the past 3 days while I was working on building an office & finishing up some wiring and today when I looked at the guage it was holding at 90lbs.

 

[LutzTD]

I used black pipe. I got about 20 lengths off of Craigs. The fittings are expensive though and getting the unions right so they dont twist is also important. But as far as the threading, you can get the tools from craigs as well if youre patient, Ive been threading mine all by hand, get the good cutting fluid and its night and day over plain oil. Id like to have a power threader but those are never cheap even on craigs

 

[sberry]

280 joints is a lot, how big is this garage?

 

[MJB24]

Another option is aluminum. I installed over 300 feet of this in a grid pattern at work in 3/4" alone. Lots of drops and T's and shutt offs. Only tool needed was a pipe wrench and a pipecutter. We went with the Infinity system. They have a lower end home quality line as well

http://www.appliedsystemtech.com/products/infinity/

When we researched all our choices we chose this. I was able to do it all myself with a scissor lift to mount everything hanging from our ceilings. It is very easy to change and add more at anytime with this product.

 

[Tim The Tool Man]

You can use lead solder for your air lines - it works easier than the lead-free solder used for potable water lines. Wipe the joints to look like a pro.

This is where referencing the Copper Tube Handbook is work it. If you look at joint strengths with different types of solder, braze, etc. the lead solder is at the bottom of the list, and would be marginal for a compressed air system. Not saying it would not work, just that the safety margin is minimal compared to non-lead solders.

http://www.copper.org/publications/pub_list/pdf/copper_tube_handbook.pdf

Go page 28 of the book, Table 4a, Up to one inch pipe for lead solder (50-50), at 100°F they give it a 200 psi max working pressure. Sure that is quite a bit, but usually you want a safety factor of 3X or 4X. Go to 95-5 solder and the joint strength jumps to over 1000 psi at that same 100°F.

Charles

Though you could probably get away with lead solder and it would be the easiest for a first timer because of its low melting point, I would NEVER use it for not only the reasons Charles mentions but also for what I like to call the lazy factor.

I am often lazy and if I need to make a future repair I might forget that that particular spool of solder is leaded and I might make a water line repair in my house with it. So I just would not want it in my house.

I do have some flux core lead solder around for electrical work but those are smaller and easier to identify spools.

 

[darkk]

Why not PVC?

Now watch the fur fly!

LOL

hahahahahahahahaha.........

 

[plym49]

Though you could probably get away with lead solder and it would be the easiest for a first timer because of its low melting point, I would NEVER use it for not only the reasons Charles mentions but also for what I like to call the lazy factor.

I am often lazy and if I need to make a future repair I might forget that that particular spool of solder is leaded and I might make a water line repair in my house with it. So I just would not want it in my house.

I do have some flux core lead solder around for electrical work but those are smaller and easier to identify spools.

200 lbs rating not enough? For a compressed air system with a compressor cut-off around 125 psi, yes? Why would 200 not be enough - and if you forgot and cranked your compressor up to 300, what would happen? A pinhole leak? A small flap of copper pipe blowing open? Goodness gracious, perhaps over-engineering things a bit?

 

[plym49]

This has been a topic of discussion for many posts. I'm surprised that no one used the devil three letters.

Stand back everyone, but here goes...

Why not PVC?

Now watch the fur fly!

LOL

I was an anti-PVC bigot myself. Then I purchased a business with a large shop that had a couple of hundred feet of PVC air lines run throughout. They worked flawlessly for years with no problems save one break where one of my workers hit a section with something heavy. The pipe was pressurized at the time and there was no explosion or shards of PVC flying, the pipe just broke. Five minutes later a repair was glued in place. BTW this system ran at 150 psi.

I have subsequently purchased another shop building that also is plumbed with PVC air lines. I am not expecting any problems with them, either.

Would I run PVC air lines if I was installing from scratch? I would always have said 'no', but given my experience and the cost of black iron and copper, it would be considered for sure.

 

[Ron Lombardo]

.... Galvanized pipe is your best option. All Public and Government spec projects use it for Compressed Air lines ... we have installed it in the NYC Subway System and the NJ Transit for the Trains ... the list is long ... copper is too expensive and black pipe will rust inside ... its a myth that galvanized flakes on the inside.

 

[CNGsaves]

I was an anti-PVC bigot myself. Then I purchased a business with a large shop that had a couple of hundred feet of PVC air lines run throughout. They worked flawlessly for years with no problems save one break where one of my workers hit a section with something heavy. The pipe was pressurized at the time and there was no explosion or shards of PVC flying, the pipe just broke. Five minutes later a repair was glued in place. BTW this system ran at 150 psi.

I have subsequently purchased another shop building that also is plumbed with PVC air lines. I am not expecting any problems with them, either.

Would I run PVC air lines if I was installing from scratch? I would always have said 'no', but given my experience and the cost of black iron and copper, it would be considered for sure.

Give em books . . . .and give em books . . . never learn ??
Guess you forgot that businesses are subject to OSHA rules ?? And that businesses need to carry insurance??

Black pipe steel is around $1 / ft and lasts forever. Copper might end up at $1.50 / ft and also last forever. Both of these are TOTALLY Safe.

Why would you waste your money putting in **** PVC at $0.50 / ft??

Also, forgot to READ that title of thread was Copper . . . OR . . Black Pipe!!

 

[jackfork]

PVC becomes more brittle over time, especially with exposure to UV light or ozone and will eventually fail.