Plumbing help? need to replace a VERY old gate valve, which is my main...

[MatBirch]

My water main is 1" galvi, and is very old. There is a gate valve that I have excellent access to in the basement. What I really need to do is replace an exterior faucet that is dripping, but the gate valve for it is already shot and wont close. I'm very scared that If I attempt to close that old main, I'm gonna get screwed, then have an "emergency" on my hands. I'd like to just replace BOTH, and set myself up for a complete re-plumb in the next year or two. I'm sure I'm gonna be out of luck, but are there any "old school plumber's tricks" that can get me around calling the city and killing the water. (don't know if I can get that done for me on Friday, and that's my only day off. Even so, if I don't get it done and back on by the time they call it a day...)
My small brain is envisioning the screw in valves that pierce small copper ice maker lines and such...

 

[sixty4]

You can try to loosen packing nut a bit to see if it turns but if your this nervous call in the pros. Sounds like the water company needs to turn off water at curb stop so you can replace main valve anyway. Then what if pipe threads are shot if your even able to back old valve off . Sometimes you just need to payup. Good luck!

 

[bas157]

I think there are setups for freezing a section of the pipe to do work downstream. Don't remember the name though.

 

[pcmeiners]

"My water main is 1" galvi, and is very old."

Touching old galvanized is asking for a bad day. I have changed valves on copper by freezing the line with dry ice, around here a pound of dry ice is $18.00, but I would be scared to do it on what you have. As mentioned,I hope you have a valve near the street

 

[quickfarms]

Will the main shutoff turn? Don’t force it and be gentle. If it takes too much force loosen the packing nut. If it is frozen do not force it. If it moves it probably will not close completely because there is rust and sentiment in the seat. Then open another hose bib to drain the line and make the repair. Replacing the main valve is asking for trouble in my book. I have quite a few old gate valves here that were repaired. The body is probably brass and the entire center section can be removed as long as you support it with another wrench so you don’t stress the old threads. In 30 years of working with old galvanized pipe I have learned to finesse it and sometimes it’s just easier to get the grinder out and cut open a fitting.

can you post some pictures of how the main valve it installed

the problem with replacing the main valve is that you will probably be forced to put a union in and they are prone to leaking

 

[PoorUB]

If it will turn open the closest silcock or the bath tub wide open and work the valve closed and open. Do it a few times until it loosened up, (With a bit of luck!)

When I bought my home the main shut of was frozen open with water scale and corrosion. I took the chance and took a big Channel Lock pliers and took my time and got it free. Then I worked it back and forth using the above method. I could feel the water scale crunching in the valve as I worked it. Like I said I got it free and it even seals well when closed.

Running the water flushes out all the scale and it ends up in your yard of bathtub and not plugging up an aerator on an bath or kitchen faucet.

 

[jkuro]

If your gate valve works but wont fully close you have some hope. There is debris that wont let it close. Open and close the valve a number of times. You will find that the valve closes a little more each time. Turn your water on to flush it a little. Repeat till it fully closes.

 

[MushCreek]

Is your shut-off at the street available? I've shut mine off several times while working on the main. Around here, there's an extended 'key' that you use to shut off the main, and they sell them at the big box stores. We had the same set-up at our house in FL. You really should consider changing out the entire main, from the street into the house. My son recently bought an old house, and the bank required that the old galvanized piping be replaced.

 

[jmiller_2308]

A long time ago in my first 1920's era house I closed the main gate valve to do some repair work. I can't remember all the details any more but at one point I was stuck with it not fully open or closed. I called the city to shut off water at the street and that valve broke and it was going to be several weeks before they could get equipment out to dig it up and replace it.

I remember asking what to do and they suggested I back feed water from the neighbor via my outdoor spigot but to only do that if I could get the main valve fully closed, which of course I couldn't do. I believe it was someone with the city that suggested freezing the line and if necessary smash the bulb on the inlet to stop the water - gulp!

I ended up using dry ice to freeze the small amount of pipe prior to the main valve and it worked well enough for me to replace the main valve. I called the city back and told them that the freezing had worked and the guy I talked acted shocked and said something like "that worked?",

My suggestion is to call the city and have them shutoff at the street but if the city's valve breaks be prepared to scramble.

 

[James-W]

Around here all we need do is call the city water dept and have them come shut off the water at the street. OR, you can do what I did and make my own water valve shutoff tool so I can turn the water off or on myself. In any case, once the water is shut off you can replace whatever you need to replace and if something breaks in the process, it is no problem at all.

If that is not to your liking, you can always call a plumber and go that route. This may be a better way to do it because a plumber will have all sorts of valves and other things to do the job right on his truck. Unless you have a lot of spare plumbing supplies on hand at your house you may have to make several trips to buy the stuff you need. I know from experience that whenever I do a plumbing job I usually end up making at least three trips to the hardware store because things that I did not know would break, do break, and then I have to go buy more stuff in order to complete the job.

Since you apparently have old plumbing, this relatively simple job may very well turn into a much more difficult job than it would appear to be at first glance. You mentioned in the opening post that you intend to replace all the plumbing in the next year or so. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to consider replacing the plumbing now rather than wait until later. I would suggest going with PEX but if you are doing the work yourself I would go with what you feel most comfortable with doing.

 

[matt_i]

I'd recommend trying to find the exterior "underground" valve where the city would shut it off. Typically you only need a u-shaped piece of steel and the T-handle tools I have seen sold at many box stores.

Attempt to shut that off, and then see if it stops waterflow in your house.

Depending on the level of catastrophe, there are a couple paths....but once the waterflow is started there isn't any more pipe freezing....so it will involve a call to those people to come out and do the above shutoff service for you....

I agree with comments on "old galvanized pipe" as those can crush down from the pressure exerted by the jaws of a pipe wrench....

Where I had city water in my life, it was in a green plastic irrigation style box about a foot down in a southern climate and the other was a couple feet deep in a northern climate under a cast iron coverplate in the front sidewalk. YMMV.

 

[nadogail]

I have replacing the inside shutoff valve for one of my rental houses scheduled for the next time that house becomes vacant. I will replace the 1" soldered in gate valve with a 1" brass ball valve, in the short term I keep a "Valve Key" in my service van. The house was built with PEX 20+ years ago.
I have been aware of "Freeze Seals" for water piping, but they were done with liquid Carbon Dioxide or Nitrogen, to be honest I dad never considered Dry Ice, which is Solid Caron Dioxide.

 

[HoosierMark]

If you get desperate and want to make a simple shut off for the street valve, cut a notch in a piece of pvc pipe and glue a t handle on top of it about three foot up. I have used one of these a few times.

 

[Stuart in MN]

I just went through this very same thing on Monday. I was replacing the flush valve in one of my toilets, went to close the main gate valve in the basement, and the stem on the valve snapped internally. There I was with the valve shut off, but no way to open it so I had to get the city out to close the curb stop valve out at the street.

When they were called, they said it may take them a couple hours to get out to my house, but as it happened the city guy was here within 20 minutes so it worked out very well (they do charge a fee for a shutoff here, your city may be different.) I wouldn't mess around trying to cobble up some way of closing the curb stop by yourself. The rule here is only the city can operate that valve, plumbers or homeowners aren't permitted.

Since you're in a cold weather area, that curb stop valve out at the street is probably pretty far underground - judging by the length of the 'key' the city guy used on mine, it's about six feet underground here. Also, just finding the dumb thing may be difficult; the cover for mine was buried under about 4 inches of soil and grass, so while I knew its general location there was no way for me to locate it exactly. The city guy had a small metal detector he used to find it.

I should add I called a plumber to replace the gate valve in my basement (there were actually two of them, one on each side of the water meter). Yes, it was expensive but I'm not equipped to handle that kind of plumbing, and there are times when you just have to step up and pay the man.

 

[MushCreek]

If you don't pay the water bill, they will shut it off for you.

 

[driftpin]

I would use the city's water shut-off service, and hire a plumber for something like this. Sometimes the smart-move is to use the licensed professional.

I have a house built in FL in ~1960. The house next door was built in the 1920's. The city came through and installed new water lines, including shut-off's and 'smart' meters to each SFR dwelling. The neighbor had scheffleras (a popular indoors plant known above the Mason-Dixon Line as 'umbrella trees.' In FL because of their invasive roots, they are known as pest species.

When the new water lines and meters went in, I trenched to replace the water line. The scheffleras' roots made a probably 3 hour from start to finish excavation and replacement into a two day sweat-athon. A kindly neighbor took pity on me and assisted me in the repair. I used a reciprocating saw and tree branch lopper to clear-out the roots, and I made sure to show the adjoining homeowner whose plants they were, the extent of intrusion onto my property the schefflera roots went. I offered to cut-down all their scheffleras with a thinly-veiled suggestion that I would be seeking 'remedies' from them, if the trees were not removed, because of the root infiltration into my foundation (I had exposed 4" thick roots disappearing under my foundation from their scheffleras), and possibly my DWV lines. Thankfully, they agreed. I showed them where the local government considered these to be pestilential species capable of ruining DWV lines, drain fields, water supplies, irrigation systems, and even foundation damage, because of root infiltration, they got the message.

 

[rburke65]

MushCreek…….AINT THAT the truth!

 

[driftpin]

If you get desperate and want to make a simple shut off for the street valve, cut a notch in a piece of pvc pipe and glue a t handle on top of it about three foot up. I have used one of these a few times.

A crow's foot wrench of the correct fit will probably work better to provide more leverage but if your valve is five or six feet below-grade, you're gonna need a bunch of extensions!

 

[BillK]

I just went through this same thing. I will usually try almost anything but my valve would not budge and I know when to stop I called one of my customers who is a plumber and he came over and got it loose. He just loosened the packing and managed to get it moving. Mine is all copper pipe so probably not as much corrosion.

For you guys that are telling people to shut it off at the street . . . . better check with your city water first. Around here it is illegal for anybody except for the county to touch the valves out at the curb.

 

[SALIV8]

What is wrong with the exterior faucet? Where is it leaking from? If it’s leaking at the stem, gently tighten the packing nut.

 

[flat350]

If you get desperate and want to make a simple shut off for the street valve, cut a notch in a piece of pvc pipe and glue a t handle on top of it about three foot up. I have used one of these a few times.

DO NOT USE PLASTIC PIPE. You'll lean on it to turn the Corp. **** at the bottom of the B box in the ground and the plastic pipe will snap off, at least use a piece of steel pipe.

 

[flat350]

Call the city and see if they'll check the b box/curb stop for function, around me they will. If they do it then you can find a b box key and work it yourself. Have a good plan B for the valve on the service, old galv. sometimes doesn't like being messed with. It's also not uncommon for the gate portion of the old valve to be rotted off the stem threads, you'll turn the handle all day and nothing will happen. See my signature below..................................

A crow's foot wrench of the correct fit will probably work better to provide more leverage but if your valve is five or six feet below-grade, you're gonna need a bunch of extensions!

Many b box shafts are only 1" or 1 1/4" in dia. , they're tough enough to key with a b box wrench let alone trying to fit a crows foot wrench down the shaft without losing it.

 

[PoorUB]

If you get desperate and want to make a simple shut off for the street valve, cut a notch in a piece of pvc pipe and glue a t handle on top of it about three foot up. I have used one of these a few times.

Your curb stops must be pretty new. I have a couple places I can borrow a curb stop wrench, a steel one, and I can barely turn the valve with one! My valve is about 8 feet in the ground.
Any time I need to shut off the water I work the valve back and forth a bit, with a silcock open.

 

[PFSard]

For you guys that are telling people to shut it off at the street . . . . better check with your city water first. Around here it is illegal for anybody except for the county to touch the valves out at the curb.

Just to piggyback on this .... When I bought my current house (Built in late 1970s) 10-11 years ago (a foreclosure), there was a gate valve for the main. The plumbing fixtures needed updating. I had an outside bib that was leaking badly. My main gate valve would not shut off the water completely. I called the city to shut it off their valve so I could deal with mine. I can't remember the legality, but I didn't want to be screwing with their property. The city's would not close completely (hard water around here).

The city replaced theirs. I replaced my main valve and hose bib. And over time, the remainder of the worn out fixtures and minor shut offs. Happy ending. Blah, blah, blah.

To the OP : I've done all the plumbing in the four houses that I've owned over my 68+ years on this planet. I would be hesitant to deal with an old valve attached to ancient galvanized pipe. And I'm basically cheap.

Call the city / town to find determine the legality before touching their property. Good luck with this.

 

[egdede]

Around here, if you break the city shut-off you bought it. (And the city crew that replaces it ain't cheap.)

 

[rharman]

As I've learned over the years..... Sometimes the best tool for the job is a credit card. Call a plumber!

 

[MatBirch]

ok-
Called the city. He was pretty cool about it. He said it's no charge and they prefer to handle it. They keep a guy on 24/7, so even if the job goes long, he'll come turn it back on whenever I'm ready. He said I'm welcome to try, but if it goes bad, of course, it's on my dime.
The task of changing out the valve doesn't bother me or scare me at all. It's easy access and I have lots of experience with it. I should be able to plan it out, even with a couple of worst case scenarios built in. My primary concern was having that old valve fail, leaving me with an emergency repair. This way, I don't even have to attempt to turn it.
I'll put in a couple of nice ball valves and set it all up for the future upgrades. Shouldn't ever fail in my lifetime...

 

[The Cobbler]

is your main service galvanized too?
if it is, I would be tempted to leave the old gate valve in place & add a new ball valve to it ( thinking of damaging the old galv pipe vs threading in to a brass thread. )
if & when you get to replace the main, you can get rid of the old gate valve

 

[rlitman]

is your main service galvanized too?
if it is, I would be tempted to leave the old gate valve in place & add a new ball valve to it ( thinking of damaging the old galv pipe vs threading in to a brass thread. )
if & when you get to replace the main, you can get rid of the old gate valve

I'm with you there. I wonder if this is one of those situations where you get in a plumber with a megapress machine to cut off the galv at the valve and make a press connection to it there. Or would that risk damaging the old galv?

 

[FredWanaker]

Although I do 99% of my own plumbing but I hired a licensed plumber to replace the main gate valve with a new ball valve. It cost me not much more than if I did it myself. It is so nice knowing it is 100% perfect. I checked his work and it was awesome. No more worrying about 40 year old gate valves failing.,

 

[fsae0607]

I hate plumbing. Done a bit myself, but when it comes to old galv pipe, eff that. Call a plumber.

My house had copper trunk lines and galv risers when we bought it. The galv pipe was a giant pain in the *** to mess with. Finally ponied up for a plumber to replace that ****.

 

[CoogarXR]

Around here, I just call the city to have them shut it off. I can't remember if there was a fee or not. The last rental property I owned, when the city turned the valve underground, it broke. They had to dig it up and replace it. All at no charge, since it's their responsibility. If I had tried to turn it and broke it, I can't imagine how much that would have cost me. Plus, as others have mentioned, I'm not sure it's even legal around here to try to turn that valve as the property owner.

Just have the city shut the main off at the street, even if there is a small fee. No need to turn headaches into migraines, lol.