plumbing question

[alan camby]

Just bought a new to me house yesterday.
Currently the home is on a well and has a expansion tank to store pressurised water for the house. I will be hooking the house up to city water in the next few months.

Should i run the city water thru the old pressure expansion tank in the crawl? I could just unhook the pressure switch and plug the 1/4" NPT port that went to the switch.
The new service requires I put a pressure reducer and check valve in my home to prevent backflow.
When the water heater turns on it could create excessive pressure in the water lines.
Are new homes being built with expansion tanks since more and more water companies require a check valve at the meter and or home?

 

[CitadelBlue]

I would disconnect the output line from the water tank and connect the city water line with pressure regulator to that. I would still use the well water for watering the lawn, washing the car etc .....

 

[Falcon67]

No house I know of gets a pressure tank unless its supplied by well water. There should be a backflow preventer on the house side of the meter. If your well supplies potable water, then I'd put a gate valve after the back flow valve, then T in the well to the house line with another gate valve. If you lose city pressure, you could then isolate the city feed and still have water in the house. Other than that, I'd keep the systems separate.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Codes will be codes and they will be different from place to place.

Tie the new water line in to your water system in the house. . . after the pressure tank and well. Your city's water system should supply enough pressure to you home.

Keep your well and pressure tank but keep it entirely separate from the city water lines. . .codes I was talking about. If you back flow bad water into the city system, you'll get some fines if you're caught. I'd keep it for times like Citadel mentioned.

 

[alan camby]

Here is a link to what my concern is.
http://www.ci.snoqualmie.wa.us/Depa...tions/ThermalExpansion/tabid/219/Default.aspx

Not nessisarily have to use the well tank. Just thought I could use it since i don't need it anymore. Just worried that if I go away from a expansion tank, the house might have issues with the thermal expansion

Besides the well, The property has a 1.2 acre pond with a well casing drilled 10 foot or so away from the bank. I was thinking of using this water for grass and plants

 

[alan camby]

Here is a video.

I think his install is kind of sloppy though.

 

[The Cobbler]

get rid of it. 1 less concern of corrosion/leak etc. it will serve no purpose in your city supplied water system other than a future headache

 

[alan camby]

The fix seems simple.
I just have never seen a house on city water with a expansion tank.

Just wondering how common this is??

The house i bought has the water heater in the laundry room and the TP valve on it is directed to the floor. I am going to work on plumbing this to a drain. But still the TP is supposed to be a emergency relief. Not something that cycles several times a day.

Maybe I am overthinking all of this???

 

[Charles (in GA)]

You are required by code to have an expansion tank for the water heater, it could be anywhere in the system, hot or cold, and provide for the necessary expansion.

I would put in the pressure regulator and anti-backflow valve as required, and a shutoff valve, and simply tee it into your existing system. Trip off the circuit breaker on the well.

If you lose water pressure due to a broken main or some other unforseen problem, simply close the incoming city water ball valve you thoughtfully installed in an accessible place and then turn on your well circuit breaker and you have water.

You also can do this same thing to water the lawn if you wish. I would leave the pressure tank in the system for the water heater.

You may want to add a ball shutoff valve from the well, but plumb it in so the pressure tank is still plumbed to the house. The purpose would be in case of a failed foot valve in the well, to prevent city water from running down your well. If you do this, flag the valve to never close with the well breaker on, it will hammer the pump to death if you do.

Is your water heater old? is your well pressure switch a 20/40 switch? if so, and your new pressure regulator will be set at about 60 psi, you could have a water heater fail real soon.

Charles

 

[kendogg]

You are required by code to have an expansion tank for the water heater, it could be anywhere in the system, hot or cold, and provide for the necessary expansion.

I would put in the pressure regulator and anti-backflow valve as required, and a shutoff valve, and simply tee it into your existing system. Trip off the circuit breaker on the well.

If you lose water pressure due to a broken main or some other unforseen problem, simply close the incoming city water ball valve you thoughtfully installed in an accessible place and then turn on your well circuit breaker and you have water.

You also can do this same thing to water the lawn if you wish. I would leave the pressure tank in the system for the water heater.

You may want to add a ball shutoff valve from the well, but plumb it in so the pressure tank is still plumbed to the house. The purpose would be in case of a failed foot valve in the well, to prevent city water from running down your well. If you do this, flag the valve to never close with the well breaker on, it will hammer the pump to death if you do.

Charles

Link please??

 

[neel2008]

Are you required by code to use city water for some reason? Otherwise, I am confused why you would want to use city water instead of the well. Is the city water somehow cheaper than the electric to run the well pump?

 

[rburke65]

I am not in the plumbing trade.....but I believe that when you tie into city or municipal waters, you cannot have a well also. The well has to be capped.....at least that is what I am lead to believe.

 

[Nowater]

Around here, people keep their well when tying in to water service. Well water is used to water the lawn and irrigation. Here, the "city" water is nicer than the hard water that smells of rotten eggs that comes from the well. A back-flow preventer is required and costs about as much as capping a well!

The hot water heater expansion tank is an entirely different matter, and I am beginning to understand they are a good thing. If you don't have one now, get one when you replace your hot water tank and have all your plumbing tools out and handy, assuming you can wait.

 

[Conductor562]

I would disconnect the output line from the water tank and connect the city water line with pressure regulator to that. I would still use the well water for watering the lawn, washing the car etc .....

That's what I did. I can switch the whole shebang back to the well in 2 minutes if needed.

 

[CNGsaves]

Local city codes will determine what you "can" and "cannot" do for continuing to use well water in ANY way within the house. The real strict codes will not allow any "commingling" the water within the house (ie cannot mix the two sources).

I'd talk with some local plumbers as to what "Real World" setups work in your area for well water, along with city water.

At bare minimum, I'd hard plumb the WELL to always water the yard, fill any swimming pool (if applicable), toilets, urinals, etc. > > > > > > > Reason being CITY Water is EXPENSIVE !! Thus, you may have some dual runs to bathroom as sink & shower would be on city water, while toilet is well water. Some of this creative work may have to be LATER after inspections all done as City also wants ALL THE MONEY it can get so they want paid for all water entering house, PLUS the City wants paid for ALL Sewer Treatment water. Thus, you may need to go stealth mode later for the toilet idea I've described.

With enough planning and proper plumbing, I would pursue the worst case scenario where the well would provide all water for the house, but it will have to be meticulously setup so NO BACKFLOW can ever get back to city water lines outside house as that is big no no. Good luck.

 

[Norcal]

I am in Washington State, and several years ago they made it mandatory for all homes on city water in our area to add backflow preventors to the water main coming into the home. For any new construction after that change it also became code to require an expansion tank for the water heater to prevent pressure spikes within the home water lines from the process of heating water expanding. Before the backflow preventers were installed on the mains, the heated water would maintain equal pressure during the heating and expansion process by just backflowing a small amount of water out the main as the water in the hot water tank expanded. It can't do that anymore because of the addition of the backflow preventer, so the expansion tanks are required instead.

I agree with everyone else. It is not cheap to drill a well, and wells do represent free water once drilled, so I would do anything possible to prevent it from just being capped. Even if it is just disconnected and sitting there ready for emergencies, it is still a valuable asset to have.

Well water is not "free" there is the cost of pumping the water & replacement of the pump it self when it fails, but still cheaper then a public water system, when a property owner decides to keep a well when they connect a backflow preventer has to be installed & has to be inspected by someone qualified to inspect it, which the owner gets to pay for, I think yearly, but I am going by the standards here in CA, other areas can vary. IMO keeping the well for irrigation is a good idea, just because water rates can be high, & if connected to a public sewer system, the rates can be according to water usage, a few years ago a subdivision was built across the street from me & they set a meter box for California Water Service the water utility, water could be $80 a month, & they raise rates all the time, I'll stay on a well.

Nothing is "free" somebody has to pay for it.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Are you required by code to use city water for some reason? Otherwise, I am confused why you would want to use city water instead of the well. Is the city water somehow cheaper than the electric to run the well pump?

If you have some seriously hard water or sulphur in your well, sometimes city water is just easier. Others don't have good wells and have water trucked in for their cistern.

I am not in the plumbing trade.....but I believe that when you tie into city or municipal waters, you cannot have a well also. The well has to be capped.....at least that is what I am lead to believe.

They try to lead you to believe that, especially if they want to get a water line to your home (Northern Ohio Rural Water should be near you). Once you ask the point blank question about keeping your well, they will tell you that it needs separated or you have to install a back flow preventer. They may require the back flow preventer to be installed by a licensed plumbing and not a competent homeowner. Some localities may require it to be tested once a years, adding to the cost of having the systems hooked together.

 

[NUTTSGT]

The fix seems simple.
I just have never seen a house on city water with a expansion tank.

Just wondering how common this is??

The house i bought has the water heater in the laundry room and the TP valve on it is directed to the floor. I am going to work on plumbing this to a drain. But still the TP is supposed to be a emergency relief. Not something that cycles several times a day.

Maybe I am overthinking all of this???

Ok, I now see that you are talking about an expansion tank and not a pressure tank for the well pump. I've been in the basements of many homes as a firefighter for various reasons. The only homes that i have seen with expansion tanks are homes that utilize a boiler for hot water heating of the home.

 

[kbs2244]

In a well system the pressure tank serves as the expansion tank.

City water backflow prevention valves are a relative new requirement and older city water homes often do not have them.
In that case the city system served as the expansion tank.

With the requirement for back flow presenters came the requirement for in house expansion tanks.

As has been explained, I would go to two separate systems. Keep the well for outdoor use and use the city for the house. You will need to re-plumb all your hose bibs but if you are a good DIY guy it should not be beyond you.

However you may run into a need for a licensed plumber for code reasons.
The building and water departments will want an assurance that you will not be feeding their system.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

You are required by code to have an expansion tank for the water heater, it could be anywhere in the system, hot or cold, and provide for the necessary expansion.

Link please??

I would venture to say, that every public and probably virtually every private water system in the US requires the anti-backflow valve and regulator to be installed. That being said, an expansion tank of some sort is a necessity to keep the pressure in the now closed system from exceeding safe limits.

You would need to look in the InterNational Plumbing code or the Uniform Plumbing Code to find the exact code cite for this. I do not have a copy of it, but have been told that this requirement is in the code, both by plumbers and building inspectors.

Like the National Electric Code, the plumbing codes are copyrighted and one would either have to purchase a copy or have access to a copy of it.

Charles

 

[kendogg]

I would venture to say, that every public and probably virtually every private water system in the US requires the anti-backflow valve and regulator to be installed. That being said, an expansion tank of some sort is a necessity to keep the pressure in the now closed system from exceeding safe limits.

You would need to look in the InterNational Plumbing code or the Uniform Plumbing Code to find the exact code cite for this. I do not have a copy of it, but have been told that this requirement is in the code, both by plumbers and building inspectors.

Like the National Electric Code, the plumbing codes are copyrighted and one would either have to purchase a copy or have access to a copy of it.

Charles

Well, my house isn't very old (built in '94) and didn't have one. And I didn't install one when I replaced the hot water heater last december.

 

[flat350]

I would venture to say, that every public and probably virtually every private water system in the US requires the anti-backflow valve and regulator to be installed. That being said, an expansion tank of some sort is a necessity to keep the pressure in the now closed system from exceeding safe limits.

You would need to look in the InterNational Plumbing code or the Uniform Plumbing Code to find the exact code cite for this. I do not have a copy of it, but have been told that this requirement is in the code, both by plumbers and building inspectors.

Like the National Electric Code, the plumbing codes are copyrighted and one would either have to purchase a copy or have access to a copy of it.

Charles

Requiring a dual check,double check,or a reduced pressure zone backflow preventor on a city water service is not a standard country wide coast to coast code,the City of Chicago doesn't even require them always.Cities that do require them usually want a expansion tank installed on the system,common place is on the cold feed to the water heater between the shut off valve and the tank.Once the check is installed on the water service you have created a closed system and the tank is just to allow a little give to the homes system.They are all just little" inexpensive safety devices" just like the T+P valve on the water heater.Do the install as they require,bypass all the old well equipment,add an expansion tank,odds are they won't like the idea of your well being tied back in,too much of a cross contamination risk to them

 

[cas2395]

Did they tell you what psi of water pressure they will be supplying?
I have 75 psi and no pressure reducing valve or expansion tank. On the low end of our water system the psi is 125 everybody has expansion tanks. Everybody has dual check valves at the meters also.

 

[alan camby]

Here is my new water providers specs for installation.
http://www.browncountywater.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=9&Itemid=11
Does anyone understand what the highlighted part means "Check Valve for Hot Water Heater on inlet side, or higher elevations."
I will be running the line from the meter to the house. Yes they do allow the owner to do the connections from meter to home.

The reason I am going to city water is because the well is a low production well for my needs. During inspection the well went dry after 45 minutes of the garden hose running. I waited 45 min and the well never recovered.
Now that I have purchaced the property, i have been very frugal with the well.

 

[alan camby]

Did they tell you what psi of water pressure they will be supplying?
I have 75 psi and no pressure reducing valve or expansion tank. On the low end of our water system the psi is 125 everybody has expansion tanks. Everybody has dual check valves at the meters also.

I have not asked what the pressure is in the main.

 

[alan camby]

Also, I have not seen anything in the installation that states that i need a expansion tank.
But think i will be adding one.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Requiring a dual check,double check,or a reduced pressure zone backflow preventor on a city water service is not a standard country wide coast to coast code,the City of Chicago doesn't even require them always.Cities that do require them usually want a expansion tank installed on the system,common place is on the cold feed to the water heater between the shut off valve and the tank.Once the check is installed on the water service you have created a closed system and the tank is just to allow a little give to the homes system.They are all just little" inexpensive safety devices" just like the T+P valve on the water heater.Do the install as they require,bypass all the old well equipment,add an expansion tank,odds are they won't like the idea of your well being tied back in,too much of a cross contamination risk to them

This came up one time before, I spent a couple of hours looking at dozens of web sites for public water systems in various parts of the country. Every single web site I found and looked at stated requirements for the installation of anti-back flow valves on new connections or major repairs or service. I simply could not find one that didn't state this requirement. Finally gave up looking.

HERE are the Chicago requirements

Charles

Other cities, counties, states, etc

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/html/forms_and_permits/backflow_faq.shtml#a4

http://cms3.tucsonaz.gov/water/bf-faqs

http://www.dnr.mo.gov/env/wpp/backflow/

http://www.hbws.org/cssweb/display.cfm?sid=1162

http://www.seattle.gov/util/MyServi...tionControl/RequirementsHowtoChoose/index.htm

http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/3745-95-06

https://www.tampagov.net/dept_water/information_resources/Backflow_prevention.asp

https://www.scgov.net/Backflow/List...TypeId=0x010069CEA09F213667479F6DF0D3B7FBB248

https://www.jea.com/Manage_My_Accou..._in_Compliance_with_Backflow_Regulations.aspx

http://www.cityofpaloalto.org/civicax/filebank/documents/18052/

 

[alan camby]

To add a little more info on how the previous owners were getting by with the low production well. They were using the well for just the kichen cold, bathroom sink cold and refrigerator cold water. All other fixtures were receiving pond water. I had the pond water tested and it was not safe.
Obviously, at least to me, the faucets mix water when in the warm position. So when the faucet is turned on cold there is still a possibility of the pond water going into your glass, toothbrush, ect.
The first thing I did was change the entire house over to the well and disinfect the well and lines with bleach.
My nest step is to connect to the city line, which will take 4-6 weeks for them to set the meter.

 

[flat350]

This came up one time before, I spent a couple of hours looking at dozens of web sites for public water systems in various parts of the country. Every single web site I found and looked at stated requirements for the installation of anti-back flow valves on new connections or major repairs or service. I simply could not find one that didn't state this requirement. Finally gave up looking.

HERE are the Chicago requirements

Charles

Other cities, counties, states, etc

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/html/forms_and_permits/backflow_faq.shtml#a4

http://cms3.tucsonaz.gov/water/bf-faqs

http://www.dnr.mo.gov/env/wpp/backflow/

http://www.hbws.org/cssweb/display.cfm?sid=1162

http://www.seattle.gov/util/MyServi...tionControl/RequirementsHowtoChoose/index.htm

http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/3745-95-06

https://www.tampagov.net/dept_water/information_resources/Backflow_prevention.asp

https://www.scgov.net/Backflow/List...TypeId=0x010069CEA09F213667479F6DF0D3B7FBB248

https://www.jea.com/Manage_My_Accou..._in_Compliance_with_Backflow_Regulations.aspx

http://www.cityofpaloalto.org/civicax/filebank/documents/18052/

READ the Chicago code,nowhere does it say that "supply mains must have a backflow prevention device".It states"The supply lines or fittings for every plumbing fixture shall be installed so as to prevent backflow.",this is accomplished on the average sink faucet with an air gap,hose bibb in a commercial building with a testable double check valve,fire protection system with a testable double check valve,floor monted fixtures with a vacuum breaker at 7'6" AFF,tub/shower units with an air gap,garbage chute washdown with RPZ BFD,etc.I've been licensed as a plumber in the City of Chicago for 38 years and I do know the code and some inspectors very well .The only recent change they made was not requiring a RPZ BFD on a hose bibb and now requiring a testable DCV BFP in it's place.Most of the links you provided above DO NOT specifically require a backflow prevention device on the incoming city service in a residence,read thru them carefully.

 

[flat350]

I'm surprised they allow SCH 40 PVC for the service line,it's for DWV usage