Plumbing question

[ipse_dixit]

Alright. I've mostly lurked here for quite some time. Now I need.to ask the more experienced for help.

We purchased our home in 2015. I've fixed a number of things already and have a list with no end that I need to get to.

In the past couple of days though, I've noticed some water down the side of our waste pipe in the basement.

I've done a bit of plumbing, but all PVC and new construstion. I tightened the clamp on that gasket at the top, as it appears that's where the water originates. However, after checking the pipe it seems it is completely deteriorating.

Is there an easy way to change that pipe (and the T) to PVC and allow it to connect to that clean out at the bottom?

I believe the cleanout/elbow is cast iron. It's really just that connection that I'm unsure of.

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[The Cobbler]

the leak is probably higher than the fernco coupling at the top . could even be entering at the roofline (when raining) if the flashing is bad .

 

[kbs2244]

I agree with The Cobbler.

Do some more investigating.
Water trickles can go a long way.
Even along the bottom of a horizonal leg.

 

[Northislander]

That pipe going into the Fernco rubber cplg. is copper, in a waste line they usually don't deteriorate unless something is draining into them that shouldn't, the one I've seen the most is condensate from a condensing gas appliance without a neutralizer

 

[6768rogues]

To answer your question, yes you can change that pipe and Tee fitting. Clean out the bell end of the cast iron pipe and buy a rubber donut that adapts that to your new pipe.

 

[Nagiom]

Had a similar situation at my house, except the fernco was at the bottom, and it was leak at the boot on the roof. Took a tube of Blackjack and that held it until the roof was replaced a few months later. It was very hard to trace as water would evaporate off the pipe leaving only a puddle on the floor.

 

[ipse_dixit]

It definitely isn't a leak at the roof line. Just above the fernco is two fairly long horizontal runs. I'll check those for leaks, but I can press that copper pipe in with my hands. Water comes out very slowly when I do.

Northislander, what kind of appliances as an example? The only thing draining into those pipes is two toilets, three sinks, and a dishwasher.

6768rogues, I'll look into a donut.

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[johnnyradiant]

'round here we would usually use ABS. Everything can and will fail. Can't tell what is happening with/at the cast hub, but I'd be real tempted to cut out the hub and build up from there and into the two horizontals above the existing Fernco. I'd also be temped to deal with the tow tee'd lines we see in the picture. The first to and including the trap and the second one atleast to and including the Fernco. That Fernco looks a little suspect, like it might not be the right one for the job, which is also possible where you have your existing leak. (If at a customer's I'd do it so I'm not back later, or I'm stabbed in the back for it spriging a leak down there after fixing the leak above. At home, because there are never enough hours in my day, I might have to fix only the leak to get to my next honey do and come back to the rest later.)

 

[moparfreak]

At a minimum, you could just replace the fernco and be done. If any of the plumbing below it bothers you or is suspect, then you'll need to pretty much cut out all of that PVC and re-set new lines. The new PVC can be joined to the old PVC either using ferncos or PVC couplers glued in.

You would need to purchase a rubber donut (also by Fernco) that is designed to go between the ID of a flared cast iron pipe fitting, and the OD of traditional PVC. I had to do something similar when reworking one of my drain stacks for some kitchen / bath remodeling:

The tricky part is going to be getting all the old PVC cleanly out of the cast iron hub so that you have a relatively clean surface for the new Fernco donut to seal into. I ended up having to use a torch to melt the lead joint out.

Also, if you do replace, San-Tee fittings would be better there than a traditional Tee to help that horizontal line drain better into the main waste stack so that solids don't collect on the edge.

 

[kbs2244]

If you have a copper drain system I would think about a whole house conversion to PVC.
Using copper for the drains seemed like a good idea at the time.
But, as time goes by, it has proven otherwise.

In a ranch house, with a crawlspace, a good plumbing contractor would have it done in a day.

 

[moparfreak]

My house built in the 60s is all copper drains and vents. Aside from the obvious cost element (4" copper tubing, yikes), aside from a patina developed, it looks in phenomenal shape. All of the new DWV plumbing I did, I obviously used PVC but the copper that I cut out for my projects was pristine on the inside, no buildup whatsoever, rock solid soldered joints w/ thick walled brass fittings. Did fetch a nice price when recycling...

Replacing whole house DWV can be phenomenally expensive if walls and ceilings aren't opened up. There's only so much that can be reached from underneath in the basement.

 

[rburke65]

What is the draw backs of copper drains?

 

[BD1]

What is the draw backs of copper drains?

Expense. Copper is not the answer, most copper is DWV which is drain,waste, and vent. This is the thinnest wall copper tube made. It will wear out on the bottom where the water flows and can eventually leak. PVC is pretty much indestructible.

 

[ipse_dixit]

The Fernco isn't the issue currently. It is the actual copper pipe that has deteriorated.

Once I get the copper out of the cast iron hub, I'll use a donut to convert it to PVC, then hook back into the Fernco. One run at the top of the Fernco is PVC and one is copper. Eventually, I'll replace the copper on the other side and hook it all up with PVC, but for now I need to get rid of the deteriorating pipe.

How are the copper and cast iron normally sealed? I've seen lead mentioned a couple of times. Is this something I should anticipate when I pull it apart?

The pipe seems very thin. The side that is deteriorating has PVC above it. A toilet that was constantly running is hooked into that pipe. Would a constant trickle like that cause an issue?

I don't know how long the toilet was constantly draining that way, but it was fixed when we moved in. I believe the house was on the market a little over a year before that. I can only imagine that it ran the whole time.

I wouldn't call the house a fixer upper. It definitely needs some updates though. The wiring is horrendous.

Thank you all for contributing. I'll update when I get the permanent fix done.

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[moparfreak]

Sounds like a good plan. You are doing pretty much exactly what I had to do w/ my drain stack pictured above.

It's a lead / oakum joint usually. Two ways to get rid of it are either to drill it out (keep drilling around the perimeter of the joint then dig / chisel it out). Or to torch it till the lead melts and can be scooped out. That's what I did. It took about 15 minutes of heating it w/ a Mapp torch so you really do have to get a LOT of heat on it.

The other option is if the first couple inches of copper is OK and not decomposed much, then you can saw it off a bit higher up above the lead/oakem joint and just use a straight fernco to clamp over the OD and skip that whole hassle.

Either way, good luck!

The donut has ribs / barbs that fit snug into the cast iron hub once it's cleaned out.

Here's a decent resource I found on it:

https://www.summet.com/blog/2012/09...-seal-on-cast-iron-drain-pipe/comment-page-1/

 

[6768rogues]

What is the draw backs of copper drains?

They can deteriorate. Toilet waste contains urine that can attack copper pipes. Specs for commercial buildings often say that copper is not permitted for drain piping from urinals. Some places have slightly acidic water that eats copper.
My father's house had copper waste and vent piping. When he died my son bought the house to use as a rental. I was fixing some plumbing and found that I could stick my finger through the side of the main 3" drain pipe from the toilet, so I replaced it with PVC. I put PVC in my house in 1980 and recently opened a clean out to see how it looked. It looked clean and exactly as it did 37 years ago when it was installed. No tuberculation in PVC. Check the current price of 3" or 4" copper and you will buy PVC.