Plywood Question

[jpearson]

Looking for some guidance from all you experienced cabinet people out there. I am doing an extensive remodel of my garage. One of my main problems is not having enough floor space so I removed all the shelves and cabinets that took up floor space and I am going to build all hanging cabinets.

I have never built cabinets before. I would like to use the garage as trial/practice and if it goes well build some vanities and new kitchen cabinets for the house. Because this is a trial for nice cabinets in the house I clearly want to do a nice job and use similar construction to what I would use in the house but because it's just my garage I don't want to spent a ton of money.

I will be doing a frameless style construction using 32mm spacing. I have access to a full setup of Festool tools. I would like to finish them with just polyurethane (no paint).

So finally my question - for this application would oak plywood from Home Depot be adequate or should I spring for higher grade plywood from a local wood supplier? I don't have any experience working with hardwood plywood so any input would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Josh

 

[Chaz]

HD oak plywood would be fine, but I'd suggest you steer away from frameless... I'd go framed with melamine... So much easier to keep clean. You can skin the visible sides with 1/4 oak ply....

 

[NUTTSGT]

Oak plywood will be fine but using birch or maple might save you 6-8 bucks a sheet. I used maple plywood for this shelving unit and trimmed the faces with clear pine.

 

[jpearson]

Chaz - I was originally thinking about pre-finished melamine. The only reason I changed my mind was that I read it quickly dulled the Festool blades and since the tools aren't mine I didn't want to be too hard on them.

 

[rlitman]

Oak plywood at HD has a thin layer of oak on the outside of each side. Light sanding will go right through it to the scrap wood underneath.

You can get birch ply that is birch all the way through, but not at HD.

The pre-finished ply at HD (it's usually maple) has a melamine finish that is actually more durable than any poly you can apply. I've used it for the interior of kitchen cabinets with much success, but at $75 a sheet, I don't use it that much.
Yes, it dulls carbide blades (no matter what the brand), just like cutting pergo flooring. That's why it wears like iron.
I'd just buy a cheap Freud blade, put it in before you cut, and toss it when you're done.

 

[turbowoodworker]

Your question is oak veneer or higher grade??
The better choice is birch unless you are making furniture grade cabinets (which you may choose to do in your house). The veneer doesn't matter in the garage unless you plan on a natural stained or oiled finish rather than paint.

 

[captain14]

Simple question related to plywood and not steal thread but when cutting veneer plywood,

good side up or down when using table saw with plywood blade?

And

Good side up or down when using circular saw with plywood blade?

Just need a reminder beforehand

Thanks in advance

 

[ctb]

Good side down with circular saw.
Good side up with table saw.

 

[captain14]

Thanks ctb. I could not remember

 

[Voi]

With frameless cabinets it's key that the box be kept perfect square. This can be problematic with plywood which doesn't stay as naturally flat as MDF/melamine, especially some of the plywood I've used from Lowes and Home Depot.

If you want to go dig through the Knowledge Base at Woodweb you'll find very strong opinions against using plywood for frameless construction. Not saying it can't be done but for a relative beginner building frameless cabinets from Big Box store plywood is a recipe for frustration.

I think for practice cabinets melamine would be a much better choice. With the money you save buy a blade for the Festool and give to the person(s) loaning you the tools when the project is done.

Two other options...

Try Baltic Birch plywood. It stays much flatter once cut and the exposed edge looks great in a shop environment, IMO. It's also sold as Finnish or Russian Birch plywood and comes in 5' x 5' sheets. Due to the odd size, it might be beneficial to work up some cut lists and see if it will hinder you compared to the traditional 4x8 sheets. Word of warning, the "Baltic Birch" sold in 4x8 sheets is not true Baltic Birch. I've only used one sheet and it was just okay. I've heard stories of it warping and delaminating so I'd avoid it.

Baltic Birch has highly fluctuating prices depending on the severity of the previous winter which determines whether or not the machinery can drive across the frozen rivers and get to the timber. I think it's cheap this year. I need to go stock up on it. I love working with the stuff and like the exposed edge look. Here are some examples of frameless cabinets. Pics taken at a Children's Museum I visited.

Next option is to use a hybrid framed/frameless method. There is a popular book by Danny Proulx that outlines one method for this but other wood workers have taken the basic concept and made their own modifications. It gives you the space saving and hardware "advantages" along with the appearance and structural advantages of a face framed cabinet.

If you don't want the expensive of hardwood face frame stock you can rip 1.5" stock from leftover plywood and use that for shop face frames. That method is mentioned in another popular book but the name and author escape me at the moment. Something about shop cabinets.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Oak plywood will be fine but using birch or maple might save you 6-8 bucks a sheet. I used maple plywood for this shelving unit and trimmed the faces with clear pine.

It looks like you just applied your varnish/poly directly over the raw wood with maybe a sanding sealer.

I'm not a woodworker, but if you stained your combination, wouldn't that cause a problem ? Pine is not tight grained and you can get a lot of variation stain color.

 

[Dennis93]

That Freud blade most likely wont work on the festool the arbor size will be different you have to go to rockler or woodcraft or order it online. Do that first tho so you don't give a friend back a dulled blade.

 

[jpearson]

Thanks for all the input - very helpful. One other question: If I use melamine what is the best way to cover the melamine screws on the visible end of the cabinets?

 

[rslaback]

Simple question related to plywood and not steal thread but when cutting veneer plywood,

good side up or down when using table saw with plywood blade?

And

Good side up or down when using circular saw with plywood blade?

Just need a reminder beforehand

Thanks in advance

The way that I teach it to my students is that the teeth should go into the good side and come out of the bad side. This works regardless of saw.

Also cutting through a layer of masking tape will help keep both sides looking better.

 

[91FE]

Chaz - I was originally thinking about pre-finished melamine. The only reason I changed my mind was that I read it quickly dulled the Festool blades and since the tools aren't mine I didn't want to be too hard on them.

Returning borrowed tools in better condition than when you took them is part of the deal. Whatever you decide...use your buddy's blade and return the saw with a new one. It would be a different story if we were talking one or two cuts...which you're not.

 

[Voi]

Thanks for all the input - very helpful. One other question: If I use melamine what is the best way to cover the melamine screws on the visible end of the cabinets?

For the typical melamine office or shop cabinet they make these circular plastic screw covers. But since these are also practice cabinets for your home projects then I would use whatever technique you think you want to use there. Raised panel end, or whatever.

As far as cutting on which side, I'd look into what Festool users are doing. Get the exact blade they recommend and see if they're using masking tape or not. The Festool tracks have those splinter guards and I don't recall to what extent they rely on them.

Sticking with the theme of returning tools in better shape than when you borrowed them, consider buying a new set of splinter guards for the track before you start your project. Or maybe when you start your indoor projects.

For the table saw have the teeth coming down into the good side for sure.

 

[Ross/Kzoo]

The way that I teach it to my students is that the teeth should go into the good side and come out of the bad side. This works regardless of saw.

Also cutting through a layer of masking tape will help keep both sides looking better.

rslaback has it correct.

In my experience of cutting into abour 40-50 sheets of furniture grade plywood I've found that plywood blades get dull very fast. I use a combination blade with like 96 teeth.

 

[D_Wooderson]

Check out sakurama's thread "Mid-Century Moto Mecca Makeover". He is doing the same thing with similar tools.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=185104

I think the cabinet build starts around post #290 +/-

 

[Bruce4310TX]

wanting to do the same thing, looked at plywood today could not believe the prices

 

[Ross/Kzoo]

wanting to do the same thing, looked at plywood today could not believe the prices

What are you seeing for pricing?

 

[stafford]

When you're cutting with a handheld circular saw turn the good side of the plywood down and cut it from the backside. When using a table saw turn the good side up. Get a decent carbide tipped blade and use it. I've cut several hundred sheets of birch, oak other AC plywood without any problems. If a hand held saw is all you have, you can use a straightedge and get along just fine. Measure from the outside edge of the blade to the outside edge of the table or bed of the saw. offset your straightedge by that much and tack it down with small nails. tack it in at least 3 places and maybe four. you do not want your saw table getting under your straight edge.It'll make a mess of a nice cut. Unless you have a nice set up for a table saw, often times you can make a straighter cut on full sheets of plywood using a straight edge.

 

[NUTTSGT]

It looks like you just applied your varnish/poly directly over the raw wood with maybe a sanding sealer.

I'm not a woodworker, but if you stained your combination, wouldn't that cause a problem ? Pine is not tight grained and you can get a lot of variation stain color.

I did stain them with some Minwax. There is some color variation but some of that can be over come by a heavier coat/extra coat to make the lighter area darker. Since this was a piece of office furniture and not for a living room, the slight difference in color didn't matter.

 

[Bruce4310TX]

like $18 a sheet for 1/4 i havent bought any in years been using OSB. with construction still down i would of thought it would be as well.

 

[Ross/Kzoo]

At $18 a sheet fot 1/4" that's reasonable. Around here the 3/4" oak and maple are $42-49 a sheet. That's not expensive considering 1/2" contruction plywood is about $30/sheet.

 

[LeeG]

Look for the book, Building Practical Shop Cabinets by Tom Clark. http://www.tomclarkbooks.com/Practical_Shop_Cabinets.html

 

[csp]

I bought a cabinet grade plywood at HD when I built mine. I'm not sure what kind of wood it is and I wasn't able to get more a few months later as apparently the factory in Brazil burned to the ground.

I built mine frameless using pocket screws. I did build a faceframe just to have some thickness to attach the doors to, but they aren't structural in any way.

 

[paranoid56]

i know around me, prefinished baltic birch 3/4" ply is around $90 a sheet. (unfinished is $77) and 1/2" is $78 (unfinished is $54) and that was with a 15% discount one nice part is its very nice quality with no voids.

 

[JakeKohl]

i know around me, prefinished baltic birch 3/4" ply is around $90 a sheet. (unfinished is $77) and 1/2" is $78 (unfinished is $54) and that was with a 15% discount one nice part is its very nice quality with no voids.

Baltic birch is very high dollar stuff (and for good reason)!

 

[jpearson]

I called for prices here today. 3/4 Wood grain melamine from Roucke is $48.70 per sheet (solid colors are about $10 less) and the Baltic Burch, 3/4, unfinished, 5x5 sheets are $52.08.

I am leaning toward BB -

Lee - I'll check that book out. It looks interesting.

 

[christopizza]

I bought prefinished maple plywood at a local distributor.

I also bought edge tape - iron on that was prefinished.

I did a closet re-do with floating shelf units and a built in dresser in the center.

Most satisfying project to date - to go from cutting to finished product in a few days with none of the agonizing finishing.

I hung all of my cabinets from the wall - no feet at all. Floating kind of deal.

Let me know if you want pics.

Chris

 

[Ross/Kzoo]

I bought prefinished maple plywood at a local distributor.

I also bought edge tape - iron on that was prefinished.

I did a closet re-do with floating shelf units and a built in dresser in the center.

Most satisfying project to date - to go from cutting to finished product in a few days with none of the agonizing finishing.

I hung all of my cabinets from the wall - no feet at all. Floating kind of deal.

Let me know if you want pics.

Chris

Of course, PICTURES!

 

[JakeKohl]

I called for prices here today. 3/4 Wood grain melamine from Roucke is $48.70 per sheet (solid colors are about $10 less) and the Baltic Burch, 3/4, unfinished, 5x5 sheets are $52.08.

I am leaning toward BB -

Lee - I'll check that book out. It looks interesting.

I guess the odd 5x5 sheet dimension must work out to good numbers with cabinets or something? I haven't started laying out my sheet goods for my next project but that sure sounds like a weird dimension.

 

[cagullett1]

Where do you guys buy maple plywood or baltic birch? I'm in the same boat as the OP, building garage cabinets as practice for upcoming inside projects. I recently purchased a sheet of 3/4" birch from HD, and after reading this thread, makes me really question whether I should be using it or not.

 

[paranoid56]

i get it at the lumber yard, they had 5x5 and normal 4x8. the 5x5 stuff is euro spec. HD has some similar stuff, but not as good.

 

[Voi]

I guess the odd 5x5 sheet dimension must work out to good numbers with cabinets or something? I haven't started laying out my sheet goods for my next project but that sure sounds like a weird dimension.

My supplier says it's because of the efficiency of packing the rails cars they use to ship it.

One nice thing about Baltic Birch is that it is fantastic for making jigs. When I work up a cut list for regular plywood, even expensive cabinet grade, I take yield into careful consideration. When I use Baltic Birch I welcome the cutoffs for making jigs and don't worry as much about yield.

 

[Voi]

Where do you guys buy maple plywood or baltic birch? I'm in the same boat as the OP, building garage cabinets as practice for upcoming inside projects. I recently purchased a sheet of 3/4" birch from HD, and after reading this thread, makes me really question whether I should be using it or not.

I get cabinet grade plywood from a locally owned lumber yard that specializes in hardwood for the cabinet building trade.

I was very disappointed with the last sheet of birch plywood I bought from Lowes. I may have had a dud, I don't know. It was a Saturday night and I really needed a sheet so I could continue to work over the weekend on my garage cabinets. It got the job done but with hindsight wish I had waited until Monday AM when the cabinet supply shop re-opened.

 

[Voi]

Lee - I'll check that book out. It looks interesting.

The Tom Clark books was the one I was trying to think of earlier in this thread. I must've loaned my copy out as I don't seem to find mine.

It's an interesting book. Sort of a K.I.S.S method of building shop cabinets. I don't think you'd use all of his ideas since you plan to use yours as practice for your kitchen projects but I do think there are some good ideas you could use.

 

[JakeKohl]

Where do you guys buy maple plywood or baltic birch? I'm in the same boat as the OP, building garage cabinets as practice for upcoming inside projects. I recently purchased a sheet of 3/4" birch from HD, and after reading this thread, makes me really question whether I should be using it or not.

I'm in the same exact position....about to undertake garage cabinets as practice for our kitchen. I know that all plywood isn't the same and I see a pretty big mix of good/bad at the big box stores. I bought some pine "cabinet grade" pine plywood that was an odd size around 3/4" to build my main mobile shop table and I probably won't do that again. I ran into a lot of voids and for a few more bucks could have had something with a nicer wood species exterior. As I look through their oak and maple veneer plywoods I see about 20% that have flatness issues and the occasional void.

how do you guys find places that you can buy quality plywood?

 

[PugetDude]

how do you guys find places that you can buy quality plywood?

Buy from a woodworking supply store, a full-service local lumberyard, or a hardwood distributor. Sometimes a local cabinet shop will order it for you.
You can't get the good stuff at the big-box stores.

 

[Voi]

how do you guys find places that you can buy quality plywood?

http://columbiaforestproducts.com/Wholesale

Start with the above. A decent lumber supply place might not have a stock of Columbia Forrest Products but will likely at least be listed as a dealer. They might stock another brand worth checking out.

If you have a woodworking specialty store ask in there.

Otherwise, ask custom cabinet shops.