Pocket door install gone wrong...

[Innovate1]

Hired a couple of temporarily laid off union carpenters to frame the inside walls in my garage. Half bath and a wall sectioning off about a quarter of it. 14' tall so a bit more than I wanted to do myself and they knocked it out in three hours. Asked them if they knew about installing pocket doors. No problem they said so they did that too. When they installed it there was a 2" gap between kits and they said it was as it should be. After they were gone I was trying to figure out why there was a board that stuck out half an inch at the top of the pocket rather than over the opening. Finally figured out they installed the top rail piece backwards. It's a double door. 60" total. Door opening measures about 64" Even with trim the doors won't fill the opening.

Directions say rough opening should be double the door width + 2 inches. It doesn't say anything about double units. They doubled the door width + doubled the 2". But there isn't any jamb at the center of the frame for a double door so it looks like they should have only added 2" not 4".

They used screws rather than nails so it isn't a big job to take it apart, move it over, and put the tops on right. But frustrating that carpenters that claim to do it all don't realize or don't care that there is a piece sticking out to the surface of the wall where there should just be sheeting. It was a cash job so easier to just redo it myself rather than try to get them back and I figure the wall construction was worth it.

Need to look up what the measurements should be on the dual setup from some other sites as the frame manufacturers instructions are minimal.

I am thinking they allow 2" extra for the rough framing to allow about 1/4" for shims and 3/4" for frame end piece on one end and similar for the final jamb on the other end. That's 1" on each side for a total of 2".

Anyone got some good info on how the dimensions should be? Apparently some of the brands make parts for joining two kits for a dual. Seems like the main thing would be a stop for the doors in the center of the track.

 

[yeldogt]

If it's a Johnson -- you are correct .... they sell the meeting rail connector. It creates the proper distance. There are all kinds of tricks to make the perfect pocket door. Most people, as you have found don't fully grasp the concept.

I don't fully understand what they did. The big mistake most people make when doing pocket doors is not understanding that the pocket frame is self supporting. Most framers place the rough framing too low and if there is any wall settling the framing presses down on the pocket assembly. With a double door the proper connector has a hole and you place a screw in the hole and pull up the frame to the rough opening .... this takes any sag out of the assembly over time. The very center of a double has no support over the two doors when closed.

The door trollies sit back from the edges of the track when the door is closed -- and yes part of the kit is a stop so the doors meet correctly. The greater distance in your situation may not matter -- as I said above the trolly does not sit at the edge of the door. it's a question of support -- you can always add a scrap to the back of the door to hit the stop.

My typical way is to order the uprated pocket doors from Johnson -- direct. You can't get the quad dolly from retail setting .... where did you buy the track? The triple dolly will take a solid door -- but they don't sell the one with a ball bearing trolly in home depot.

The high end way to do a pocket is to order the door with a larger top rail and side stile (the one that goes in the wall) This way the full door is visible -- it takes some thinking. My current project has 9 pockets --two big doubles. I ordered the 36 frames and we cut them down for the custom 34 doors

I use small chrome screws and escutcheon to affix the trim that hides the service side of the track.

 

[58Yeoman]

My house built in '79 has one pocket door between the kitchen and basement stairs, which is always open for us. You just have to remember that there is a door inside the wall when you go to hang something on that wall. I hung a small spice rack for my wife, and the screw just caught the door, putting a scratch in it.

I had to take out the door to shorten it a bit when we had new wood floors installed. First time for me, but it still works.

 

[Innovate1]

Thanks for all the info. I recalled after I picked these up that I went with Johnson for the house about 15 years ago. At the time they were highly rated and I haven't had any trouble with them. I don't expect these to be shut very often and will look at the trolleys. They are 4 wheel but I don't know about the bearings. They are from A&F Wood Products. Several of the local big box stores carry them. If I had remembered I would have tried to find Johnson but these are already in place so unless I see some obvious quality issues will continue with these.

A&F does have a "mullion" kit with a bracket and track stops - #751. Will have to see where I can get one. It's in a non-supporting wall with double 2 x 6 header so I don't expect any issue with sagging.

The top rail was installed end-for end of how it is supposed to be. So the wood strip that is supposed to be at the top of the opening is at the top of the pocket instead. It extends to the outer edge of the drywall so obviously can't be where it is. I marked where the strip is and should be in red on the attached. It should be in the opening and slightly lower.

They also put them too far apart so the opening for the doors is about 4" wider than both doors. The final jamb will fill about 3/4 on each side but the doors will not fully cover the opening. Adding material there would take quite a bit of addition. I can move the frame over pretty easily.

I have watched a few videos and looked at directions. Different brands/models have slightly different dimensions but I should be able to figure it out. I am thinking 60" for the opening before the addition of the final 3/4 jambs which is the same as the total for the 2 doors. That will give 3/4" of overlap after the trim is on so the doors will seal relatively well - not air tight but no light around them.

The trim around the existing ones in the house are nailed not screwed so getting to the rollers to do anything will be some work. If the top piece is screwed that would allow the top adjustments to be accessed but the door still couldn't be taken out. If the split finish jambs are also screwed on then it may be possible to remove the door if needed. How is this normally done?

 

[stonesfan68]

I re-installed 3-pocket doors after our house flooded. They were all single doors. That Johnson Hardware kit is excellent! If you didn't buy the ball bearing rollers then I recommend that you pay the $20 for the upgrade- it is well worth it. I can open and close the doors with my finger.

My house built in '79 has one pocket door between the kitchen and basement stairs, which is always open for us. You just have to remember that there is a door inside the wall when you go to hang something on that wall. I hung a small spice rack for my wife, and the screw just caught the door, putting a scratch in it.

I used nails that were too long when I did the baseboards and had to make some adjustments as well.

The trim around the existing ones in the house are nailed not screwed so getting to the rollers to do anything will be some work. If the top piece is screwed that would allow the top adjustments to be accessed but the door still couldn't be taken out. If the split finish jambs are also screwed on then it may be possible to remove the door if needed. How is this normally done?

All of my trim is nailed. It wouldn't look finished with screws, but then out in the shop it wouldn't look too bad. If the hardware is of decent quality then you shouldn't need to take the trim down for years anyway.

 

[yeldogt]

The Johnson trolly has a release to drop the door from the trolley -- it's easy to make the one side of the split head removable ... secured with two screws it's not noticeable. 4 screws for a double .... need to use very straight stock

Removing the door to paint is as easy as taking out the two screws .. dropping the one side of the split head jam and flipping the trolly release.

I also like to use two quality felt pads on the side jam and the pin on the floor that rides in a grove on the bottom of the door.

I would be concerned about the framing resting on the pocket frame.

Here is part of my new project -- I have a threaded rod through the transom to hold up the center -- it's also adjustable with a turn of the nut in the future

 

[Innovate1]

On removing the door... Does the door have enough gap at the bottom to drop enough to clear the trim? The top jamb on one side gets removed but the casing would hang down nearly as far. Seems like the edge of the door would still be slightly in the pocket so require turning the door to get it out. Maybe I can find a video of it. I always thought nailing the jambs in place was a bad idea but I haven't had to mess with my units in 15 years. I think most of the brands now have the release between the door bracket and the roller assembly.

 

[yeldogt]

On doubles it's easy as you can pull the door to the center and remove the 1/2 upper head.

On singles you have to pay with it .. when I do the custom doors you have to make the split side removable as well as the door sits back. It's tight.

I typically do chrome hardware in my projects ... setting up the doors so the small screws are on the inside of the room -- they never are noticed. The parts get painted -- then installed.

It's a nice detail and save problems down the road ...

 

[Innovate1]

On doubles it's easy as you can pull the door to the center and remove the 1/2 upper head.

On singles you have to pay with it .. when I do the custom doors you have to make the split side removable as well as the door sits back. It's tight.

I typically do chrome hardware in my projects ... setting up the doors so the small screws are on the inside of the room -- they never are noticed. The parts get painted -- then installed.

It's a nice detail and save problems down the road ...

Thanks! That explains what I have wondered about for a long time.