Pole barn concrete

[Grumpy365]

Ok. I was ready to build a 40' x 60' modified arch steel building, but I Have about talked my self out of it and into a pole barn.

The question / debate revolves around the foundation.

If I do a "real" foundation I will have to get it engineered and concrete work will cost a gazillion dollars. ( I built a home on the same lot and it cost me 2 gazillion dollars, due to the big a** piers and huge a** beams) expansive clay / black gumbo is awful to build on.

IF I do a pole barn, I think ( due to BS codes), I still have to get engineering and soil reports, but I think it would be a heck of a lot cheaper on a pole barn, since the foundation has no impact on the structural integrity of the building.

What has been y'alls experience.

 

[Abbott]

Here we set the poles on a small concrete pad we just shovel into the hole. Then back-fill them with soil.

 

[Justanoldguy]

Check local code requirements and stick to them.

 

[mtwaterguy]

Be sure to get below the frost line.

 

[Grumpy365]

Check local code requirements and stick to them.

^^ not a helpful post

Be sure to get below the frost line.

I live in just south of Houston, Texas, what is a frost line?
( we don't have a frost line )

 

[Justanoldguy]

^^ not a helpful post

So, I take it then you don't really want good advise...

Good luck floundering along on your own.

 

[James John]

Most HVAC contractors know about it. They can tell you how to insulate the slab and how much tubing is required. I have a few friends with it in their own buildings and they swear by it. It's a nice even heat and is said to be cost effective.

 

[Daniel Dudley]

Generally speaking I would guess that there are a **** load of pole barns in Texas. Call a contractor who has built hundreds. He will give you a price, and get plans to the inspector.

 

[Daniel Dudley]

Oh yeah. I have put footer pads of concrete under each pole, but I have also dug long trenches and put one long reinforced strip under each side of a structure. That is usually overkill. The pad goes on the ground, or on compacted gravel.

 

[Dragster Racer]

^^ not a helpful post

So, I take it then you don't really want good advise...

Good luck floundering along on your own.

If that is the advice that you have, then perhaps it would be easier and more efficient to just start a thread and say it once. "Whatever project you are working on, and whatever question you may have.....Just follow the code. That's all you need to know." Generally, folks are looking for a bit more direction than that. I live in the boonies, and you know what? No building code, no inspectors. I had to get a septic and well inspection and that was it. So where do I go for "code"? Should I use some other regions?

As far as the foundation...what exactly are you asking about? The poles or the floor? In a pole barn, these are actually different systems. Around here, SOP is to drill holes, insert poles and tamp dirt.(although I think they use disks at the bottom of the holes) No concrete anymore. They say that it shortened the life of the poles. You pour the floor when you are ready, or never if you want just a dirt floor.

 

[kb2tha]

I have been reading and following the posts on this forum for quite awhile now. This is a forum I wish I had found a little earlier. Am currently building a 1400 sf garage with a mid 50's Texaco theme. Will post pics later.

Since I know I am a noobie here (but not to building design and construction) I'll run the risk of getting flamed. Not to rain on anybodies parade, but in reference to code, each state has a set of building codes. If no local code exists, then the state code would be in order to follow. If a local code is present, it overides the state code as it will be more restrictive, not less.

 

[Dragster Racer]

No flaming from me. I understand about state codes, but just pointing the op in that direction kind of defeats the purpose of this board. That was my point. If that was all that one needed to know, we could get rid of the Garage Journal and have the "See local or state codes Journal". It would be a small website. LOL.

 

[kb2tha]

I was only trying to point out that state codes exist. Some posters on this forum may have no local code and assume that anything goes. This could lead to problems down the road with structural problems, health issues, insurance claims, etc.
I am in total agreement with the value of this board. As stated, I wish I had found it sooner. Found this forum through a link from a tractor forum. There is too much valuable experience on this forum to not take advantage of it.

 

[Dragster Racer]

I agree on all accounts.

 

[fefarms]

If I do a "real" foundation I will have to get it engineered and concrete work will cost a gazillion dollars. ( I built a home on the same lot and it cost me 2 gazillion dollars, due to the big a** piers and huge a** beams) expansive clay / black gumbo is awful to build on.

It seems your problem is expansive soils with poor bearing strength. Pole buildings in such an environment are no picnic either, although local codes might be more lenient (due more to poor drafting of the codes than sound engineering reasons).

If you want a concrete floor anyway, this seems like a perfect application for a "floating slab". Truck in enough rock to get up out of the clay and get good drainage, Compact it well. Design a reinforced slab with suitably thickened edges, and the entire slab supports the building. This method is used to build on permafrost in the arctic. My dad and I used this technique to build a detached storage bulding and sauna in Michigan's Upper Peninsula, avoided the need to dig 6 feet down to the frost line, and the building is still standing 40 years later.

Talk to the local code enforcement people and see what they think. You'll need a bit of extra reinforcement and concrete vs. a simple slab, but it isn't much compared to piers and grade beams. You may need a civil engineer's stamp, but it shouldn't cost much in engineering time.

 

[Grumpy365]

^^ not a helpful post

So, I take it then you don't really want good advise...

Good luck floundering along on your own.

Dude, i built a 3000 sq.ft house on this very site a year ago, with my very own little pinkies. Hundreds of feet of wood ranch fence and over a 1000 feet of metal field fence.

I work in installation of industrial equipment and keep up as much of the electrical NEC codes as possible.

It isn't my first time around codes or inspectors.

Code doesn't always mean best way (especially if you want to do anything innovative)

Saying build to code is like when someone ask a question on valve lash on a motor and you say "drive the speed limit". It has nothing to do with the question or your experience.

Building to code is a given, it kinda goes without saying. (no need to waste the banned with of a post, especially not 2 or 3)

 

[Grumpy365]

No flaming from me. I understand about state codes, but just pointing the op in that direction kind of defeats the purpose of this board. That was my point. If that was all that one needed to know, we could get rid of the Garage Journal and have the "See local or state codes Journal". It would be a small website. LOL.

In Texas there are no state codes, just city (and maybe county, but not usually)

 

[Grumpy365]

It seems your problem is expansive soils with poor bearing strength. Pole buildings in such an environment are no picnic either, although local codes might be more lenient (due more to poor drafting of the codes than sound engineering reasons).

If you want a concrete floor anyway, this seems like a perfect application for a "floating slab". Truck in enough rock to get up out of the clay and get good drainage, Compact it well. Design a reinforced slab with suitably thickened edges, and the entire slab supports the building. This method is used to build on permafrost in the arctic. My dad and I used this technique to build a detached storage bulding and sauna in Michigan's Upper Peninsula, avoided the need to dig 6 feet down to the frost line, and the building is still standing 40 years later.

Talk to the local code enforcement people and see what they think. You'll need a bit of extra reinforcement and concrete vs. a simple slab, but it isn't much compared to piers and grade beams. You may need a civil engineer's stamp, but it shouldn't cost much in engineering time.

Local inspector tells you you need a soil report and a stamped engineering drawing.
Last time i had a engineer do a slab, he designed a awesome one, but it also cost me dearly to build it. I wont have him design me another one, because i cant afford to have it poured.

I assume the first slab was high is because on conventional construction the slab is integral to the support of the house.

I I justo cant afford another slab-ma-hal.

 

[pinebarkauto]

I would talk to a contractor with experience in building a "pole barn". Years ago, I built my home/shop (1 structure) in a "pole barn" configuration. County codes required engineered drawings for the building shell. The floor was not considered part of the building since a true "pole barn" may or may not have a concrete floor and it would not matter for the structural integrity of the building. When the building was completed, a band around the perimeter of the building was there to pour the floor to or if no concrete was desired, one could spread gravel to it. This cuts floor cost dramaticly. If your soil is such that it will allow this type of costruction, great. If not, you will have to go with engineered flooring to place the "pole barn" on and lose much of the cost savings of that type of construction vs more conventional (concrete block or foundation and studwall) construction. The company I used (Morton Buildings) can provide a lot of information worth listening to even if you don't buy one of their buildings. Check out their website.

 

[slice]

PM sent to you ....

 

[Justanoldguy]

This guy doesn't live in the boonies.
The advise was specific to this threads OP.
Finding the legal requirement FIRST is usually a good move.
Then ideas from here can be incorporated into that.
As far as looking for more direction.?
A lot of advise on here is very misleading and wrong.

As I said, get the legal side sorted FIRST.

Have a nice day.,.

If that is the advice that you have, then perhaps it would be easier and more efficient to just start a thread and say it once. "Whatever project you are working on, and whatever question you may have.....Just follow the code. That's all you need to know." Generally, folks are looking for a bit more direction than that. I live in the boonies, and you know what? No building code, no inspectors. I had to get a septic and well inspection and that was it. So where do I go for "code"? Should I use some other regions?

As far as the foundation...what exactly are you asking about? The poles or the floor? In a pole barn, these are actually different systems. Around here, SOP is to drill holes, insert poles and tamp dirt.(although I think they use disks at the bottom of the holes) No concrete anymore. They say that it shortened the life of the poles. You pour the floor when you are ready, or never if you want just a dirt floor.

 

[Justanoldguy]

Talk to the local code enforcement people and see what they think.

**** mate .. Don't suggest that..

 

[Deltarat]

I poured a base in the bottom of the holes and up about 12" and then poured the rest of the hole along with the slab to tie everything together with rebar on an 18" grid.

 

[Holedgr]

In Texas there are no state codes, just city (and maybe county, but not usually)

I'm sure you know this, but for the rest who DON'T, following this thread...

NATIONAL CODE is the starting benchmark....

STATE codes doesn't necessary supercede, but add to the national code and still must be followed as a minimum....

COUNTY codes are the next in the code food chain...

CITY or TOWNSIP codes (if you live in one) are the almost the final say in the minimum...

The LAST code is that of the particular inspector (s) that are in the area and the code on occasion is subject to his interpretation....



All of this is a Minimum for what you are doing...

I would say to the O.P. that since you know the land, codes, and probably what you're gonna fill this building with.....

I'd go with some super reinforced floating slab which will effectively isolate the pole structure from the weight of the slab. I would not want to have to do structural repairs AND floor repairs at the same time....(temporary supports would be DIFFCULT and painful...

My .02....


-T

 

[Rickstir]

Our county doesn't reallly care, as long as they can get the building on the tax rolls. I am building my third outbuilding next spring. Concrete 'pad' for the treated post, fill with soil. Holes will be 4 ft.deep for frost line. This is a horse/cattle/goat facility, open on one side. Lime waste for the floor. My big challange will be drainage. Got to mold the soil on the up-hill side to flow around the pad, not through it.