Pole barn dilemma

[dodge em]

I am having a guy build me a pole barn. He wanted me to do the holes because there is a unmarketable gas well line on the property. So i did them sunday with inspection for monday. Code is 5ft 24in wide. 24" 12"d footer brings post 4ft under.

A unannounced rain storm filled 15 holes 1/2 full of slurry sunday night.


So contractor came and sholved most of it out and put quick crete in. The tops are at 4ft below grade.

I have no idea how much concrete he did, what if all the silk is not all out? He called inspector and some how at 4ft and not the supposed to be 5ft it passed.

Looking for what you would do.

Orginal plan was redi mix truck was supposed to deliver 1.75 yards and do the job.

 

[DougWil]

Looking for what you would do.

Pull the posts out, fire that "guy", get a different "guy" to build your barn and put perma-columns made of concrete in the ground. Or something similar.

Code is 5ft 24in wide. 24" 12"d footer brings post 4ft under.
^ I have read this several times and have no idea what it means.
Code is a 24" diameter hole, 5 ft deep?
The rest makes less sense.

 

[chaosracing]

#1 No holes should have been dug until all utilities were properly marked out, especially knowing there was a gas line running thru your property. That was clue #1 not to go with this guy.

#2 I would not proceed any further with this guy. I would remove all work already done.

#3 I to am at a loss for what you are saying here Code is 5ft 24in wide. 24" 12"d footer brings post 4ft under.


#4 When ever I have dug holes, if there is even a slight chance of rain, I always put a piece of plywood over the hole to prevent them from collapsing or filling in.

 

[jd_1138]

Go with somebody else. He's not even getting the basics correct, and these basics are the foundation of the entire build.

 

[UpNorther]

I'd abort and find a different guy too.
Just move your pole barn 5' over if you dont want to pull the footings out.

 

[Voi]

Code is 5ft 24in wide. 24" 12"d footer brings post 4ft under.
^ I have read this several times and have no idea what it means.

#3 I to am at a loss for what you are saying here Code is 5ft 24in wide. 24" 12"d footer brings post 4ft under.

I read it as the concrete "cookie" needs to start at 5' below grade and be 24" in diameter and 12" tall -- then the pole would rest on that and be 4' below grade.

OP, is that correct?

 

[Diesel Dan]

I read it as the concrete "cookie" needs to start at 5' below grade and be 24" in diameter and 12" tall -- then the pole would rest on that and be 4' below grade.

OP, is that correct?

That is correct and what I had to do for my Ohio barn.

Depending on the truss width the diameter of the pad could be 30" and the thickness is 1/2 the diameter. The post needs up lift preventers too, either 2x6x12" blocks nailed on or 1/2" rebar cross drilled and poured into a concrete collar.

 

[DougWil]

OK then decipher the rest of the riddle.

Code is 5ft 24in wide. 24" 12"d footer brings post 4ft under.

and

The tops are at 4ft below grade.

and

He called inspector and some how at 4ft and not the supposed to be 5ft it passed.


Is the post supposed to be embedded 4' or 5'??

 

[Diesel Dan]

Bottom of the post had to be minimum 48" below grade so the holes would have to 60" deep total (from grade) in this application.

Sounds like the inspector was just making sure the poles were set deep enough. Inspector could make the contractor excavate the side of the footing to prove the pad was thick enough or just take his word for it I guess.

 

[DougWil]

Bottom of the post had to be minimum 48" below grade so the holes would have to 60" deep total (from grade) in this application.

Sounds like the inspector was just making sure the poles were set deep enough. Inspector could make the contractor excavate the side of the footing to prove the pad was thick enough or just take his word for it I guess.

But weren't the holes dug 5' deep? The OP dug them.

Were they 5' deep and refilled with 1' of silt runoff?
In which case the bottom of post is sitting on a bed of wet silt?

 

[Diesel Dan]

A unannounced rain storm filled 15 holes 1/2 full of slurry sunday night.

Like this?


Used a submersible sump pump to get the water out and scooped, shovel or what ever worked to get the muck out. Dug out the bottoms a little deeper to make sure I was down to solid soil and the pads ended up being 14-15" thick to keep my posts at grade.

 

[Diesel Dan]

But weren't the holes dug 5' deep? The OP dug them.

Were they 5' deep and refilled with 1' of silt runoff?
In which case the bottom of post is sitting on a bed of wet silt?

I was helping clear up what code wants.
Even the OP doesn't know what he has and there in lies the problem.

I set grade pins in the bottoms of the holes, brought in a concrete truck and poured them myself. No questions what I have. Cost extra for a short load but much better than 40+ bags of quickcrete which still wouldn't be as good a mix as the concrete plant mix.

 

[dw1]

Just asking..., if there is a gas line that is running through your property, there must be some type of easement for it to run thru, is it close to your barn (Hopefully not under), do you have a plot plan of your lot, showing the easement?

 

[bullnerd]

If the bottom of the pill is below the frost line, what's the problem?

 

[Diesel Dan]

The concern is the pill itself.
Did the contractor just dump a couple bags of quickcrete to absorb the extra moisture and not mix it properly?
Is it only 4-6" thick?
Is it sitting on 6" of muddy slurry that will settle when the weight of the barn is set on it?

 

[bullnerd]

The concern is the pill itself.
Did the contractor just dump a couple bags of quickcrete to absorb the extra moisture and not mix it properly?
Is it only 4-6" thick?
Is it sitting on 6" of muddy slurry that will settle when the weight of the barn is set on it?

Ahhh...I re read it. Not using a prefab pill, just dumped quickcrete in the hole.

Yeah, that doesnt sound good.

 

[lakeroadster]

I have no idea how much concrete he did, what if all the silk is not all out? He called inspector and some how at 4ft and not the supposed to be 5ft it passed.

Looking for what you would do.

What I would do.... Pump the water out and inspect it. That's your only way of knowing what was done.

You're in Ohio? Don't rely on the inspector to do anything worthwhile or on your behalf. You personally need to inspect and approve, it's your building and it's your money... A colleague of mine lives in Farmersville, Ohio, the inspector that came out to look at the footers on his barn never even got out of his vehicle.

Dumping Quickcrete in the bottom of the hole, placing the post and then back filling, is SOP by a lot of barn builders... but the hole is not supposed to have any water in it. The theory is the concrete pulls the moisture out of the soil and sets up over a period of time.

IMO.. that's half-assing it. They wanted to do that on my barn and I wouldn't let them. They got pissed, I didn't care.

 

[dodge em]

Ok, to clear things up. Code is a 22" hole and poles need to be embedded 48". Footer needs to be 1/2 the of the width of the hole for depth (11"). The only auger around town is a 24 so that puts me at 12" footer aka 5ft hole.

all i can think of is contractor said to inspector I dug 5ft and he applied concrete before inspection and there at the approved 48".

I called contractor and asked the amount of quickrete installed and it was 3000lbs. which is a far cry from the 6100lbs required. Construction has been put on hold by me.

That picture is my site to the tee! it wasn't the openness of the holes as it was the flooding of the site. I had to dig a place for the sump in the soon to be drive way first. then the holes...

The gas line, it is from a well that was installed way back in the day. No tracer. Called 811 before and got the all clear. Installed a 1500ft tv cable line and ripped thru a 10psi line. For this job i got the all clear again.
Its for the free heat PO used to own 50 acres and parceled my lot off to there daughter. Parents died they took parents house and I bought the daughters.

As of right now, I am calling off work tomorrow and re doing the holes. I will fill with the required 79 80lbs bags. the rain we got today did not affect anything on the sight. It was just the mini flash flood.

 

[Diesel Dan]

Imo, spend the money on a couple yards of concrete. The aggregate in quickcrete is really fine compared to the #57 gravel mixed at the plant. Saves a LOT of wear and tear on your body as well.

 

[dodge em]

Yeah, 2 yrds of 3000 psi fondation mix is schedule for 3pm tomorrow. Im gonna put some rebar and a measuring rod for depth down there too

 

[pmiranda]

You going to break up and lift out the concrete at the bottom of the holes, or just do new holes offset?

 

[Diesel Dan]

I used short pieces of rebar stuck into bottom of hole for grade marker. Used rotary lazer to set heights and a short piece of 2x4 nailed to the end of a 4-5 foot piece making a tee to level out the pads.

 

[dodge em]

So far so good. We are back down to 5+ ft. I have a few that are 6.25ft. Contractor called and said he will be here in the morning with auger to redo them. And pour this afternoon. Told him i rented one already and he said he will pay me back for it. Plus pay for the now 2.5 yd load of redi mix. He will be here to pour at 3.

Thanks all

 

[lakeroadster]

I called contractor and asked the amount of quickrete installed and it was 3000lbs. which is a far cry from the 6100lbs required. Construction has been put on hold by me.

Contractor called and said he will be here in the morning with auger to redo them.

He is going to auger through 3,000# of concrete? Sounds like the contractor I had for my barn moved to Ohio.

 

[Exit 61]

Got my Nomex on ........ Its just a pole barn. put a 12"x12" paver in the bottom and be done with it....... It will out live you...... everyone way over thinks these pole buildings including county or city codes....... Thankfully my county has no code......... The norm here is 6"x6" green 48" deep, 12' on center with double 2x6 trusses (we can build our own trusses) with 2x6 purlings on 24" centers. And yes we are in snow country.......

 

[Diesel Dan]

Got my Nomex on ........ Its just a pole barn. put a 12"x12" paver in the bottom and be done with it....... It will out live you...... everyone way over thinks these pole buildings including county or city codes....... Thankfully my county has no code......... The norm here is 6"x6" green 48" deep, 12' on center with double 2x6 trusses (we can build our own trusses) with 2x6 purlings on 24" centers. And yes we are in snow country.......

He is doing his to current code. Plus I have seen some of those barns where they drill and drop 2" thick cookies and don't bother to clean the holes out properly and then a post or two will settle later on and you can see the dip in the barn.

Snow country, spanning 12' with only 2x6s?
Up in Michigan we do 8' OC and double row of 2x10s for our truss headers. Been that way for 30+ years that I'm aware of. The posts will, and have, rotted off at the ground level before the roof structure ever gets compromised.

 

[Exit 61]

I can show you buildings that are over 50 year old built as described still standing...... self shedding roof 4in12 metal roof.... even when a code or plans are required all built the same way, I could post many photos as pole barns spring up this time of year quicker than weeds......

He is doing his to current code. Plus I have seen some of those barns where they drill and drop 2" thick cookies and don't bother to clean the holes out properly and then a post or two will settle later on and you can see the dip in the barn.

Snow country, spanning 12' with only 2x6s?
Up in Michigan we do 8' OC and double row of 2x10s for our truss headers. Been that way for 30+ years that I'm aware of. The posts will, and have, rotted off at the ground level before the roof structure ever gets compromised.

 

[Diesel Dan]

I can show you buildings that are over 50 year old built as described still standing...... self shedding roof 4in12 metal roof.... even when a code or plans are required all built the same way, I could post many photos as pole barns spring up this time of year quicker than weeds......

Obviously I'm no expert but what span charts do they use out there that allows a double 2x6 in a load bearing application to span 12'?

I wouldn't even call a 6/12 metal roof self shedding. Seen 24" sitting on all metal 6/12 without any snow cleats.

I was getting a rough plumbing inspection today in Tennessee and described your specs to our inspector and no way it would pass here, ohio, Michigan or Wisconsin. Not the rural areas we lived anyway.

Edit: after re-reading I'm not sure what kind of truss headers you described. But you are spanning something 12' by the sounds of it.

 

[hemifalcon]

I'm not the grammar police by any means.. But--please re-read some of your postings to make this useful to some of the other knuckledraggers out there.. This is not being directed at any one person posted on this thread--but it seems like some of you get your ******* in a bunch-launch a knowitall response to the OP and you can't make sense of have the **** typed.

OH--and post some damned pictures OP along the way if you have the ability..

 

[lakeroadster]

Obviously I'm no expert but what span charts do they use out there that allows a double 2x6 in a load bearing application to span 12'?

Depends on the building design. On my building the trusses sit on top and inside the columns. (2 ply truss w/ 4 ply column -or- 1 ply truss with 3 ply column) The outer two column ply's extend up and the entire truss / column sub-assy is all truss locked together.

In that case the headers aren't really headers, they are simply the top wall girt and support no snow / roof loads. They simply support the barn siding and whatever wind load the building is designed for.

Make sense?

 

[dodge em]

Holes are redone. Some are 6ft. Thats what happens when drilling at midnight. 3 yards of concrete are in place. Redi mix driver asked why all the wells?. Lol.

I would say there was a bag and a half in each hole. The day I had the rental he said he was sending a guy out to redo them. Told him i was already on it. He is paying for the rental and materails and my time. Or better yet deducting it as full payment is due upon completion.

I feel my problem lies is he is a amish contractor and has a older guy drive him around. He cleaned alot of muck out by hand alone. So im not sure on there policies and skid loaders. Must have a non amish sub contractor. He came out and directed the redi truck and wheeled it alone while his driver and I watched. He didnt even grunt over the ruts. 3 yards in 30 min. I ordered and scheduled redi mix.

 

[Diesel Dan]

Make sense?

Yup, not something I'd want to try and finish off.
Works as a machinery shed but still needs bigger footers, IMO.

I had to clean up the remains of a 60x80 that was in a pile since whoever built it decided it didn't need up lift protection. Lifted one whole side out of the ground and snapped the other 6x6s off just above the ground. What a mess.

OP,
Glad you got it taken care of.
Amish contractors, whole thread in itself.

 

[lakeroadster]

Yup, not something I'd want to try and finish off.
Works as a machinery shed but still needs bigger footers, IMO.

I had to clean up the remains of a 60x80 that was in a pile since whoever built it decided it didn't need up lift protection. ....

Explain.... What does footer size have to do with uplift protection?

 

[Diesel Dan]

Explain.... What does footer size have to do with uplift protection?

My bad, rambling thoughts.

Old habits were 16" diameter 2-4" thick cookies and no uplift protection.
Or 12" hole, 80lb bag of dry sackcrete, water and set pole.
Must be just fine since there are many still standing, right?

I do know the building inspector here said they are going to start cracking down on pole barns with living quarters. Too many people trying to skirt the building codes with these non-traditional building designs. They have failed many building inspections due to improper roofing, ventilation etc. IIRC they are still planning on allowing them but will require engineered prints showing the structure will meet wind load, energy efficiency etc.

 

[dodge em]

Barns done. Lol. They started monday and were done today. Tee'ed to old 24x44 took them all of 15hrs.
30x40x14
2 12x12 openings
1 man door
5 windows
Shingled valley
Tyveked
Wainscoting
6x6 poles


For me doing holes they took off $1k.im impressed

 

[Diesel Dan]

Nice!
Now we need some pics!

 

[dodge em]

Theres 15 holes under the water. "Sigh"

 

[dodge em]

Aside from ground prep and footer this is how far they made it from 7-4 on day 1

 

[dodge em]

I graded it at stared gravel. Doors will be here tuesday.

 

[Diesel Dan]

Looks nice!
What size are the OH doors?