Pole barn question

[the duck]

Hello,
I am new to this forum and living in upstate New York, about 30 minutes north of Albany. I am planning on building a 30'x40"x10" workshop on my property, probably using a pole barn contractor. Does anyone in my region have a recommendation for a good pole barn outfit? Like everyone else, I'm looking for quality without the cost of a new house!

I expect to use the shop year round and plan to completely finish the interior - heat, electric, water, toilet, concrete etc. Any advice on finishing is welcome too, i.e. using the pole barn contractor vs. hiring a local subcontractor.

Thanks for your time,
Matt

 

[DougWil]

I hope if you are going to invest that kind on money into finishing your pole building that you use perma columns or drilled and cast concrete piers, and not put wood posts in the ground where they will eventually rot away.

 

[the duck]

Hello,
Thanks for the input. I'm looking into the plastic sleeve option around the base of the post. What is the perma-column?
Thanks,
Matt

 

[DougWil]

Since 2002, our company has been providing permanent foundation systems for post frame buildings, known to most as “pole barns”. Every day we get calls from frustrated building owners who have found that their wood foundation has decayed much earlier than promised. Many builders are also frustrated by the frequent changes in wood treatments forced on them by the EPA, and market studies have shown that they are building on concrete foundations more than ever. Post frame construction is one of the most attractive, economical, and efficient ways to build. Our products combine these advantages with the proven durability of concrete, resulting in a foundation that is permanent.

https://www.permacolumn.com/

I like this solution better than shipping heavy columns.
Wet set installation with Sturdi-Wall Plus brackets provides the highest ultimate strength connection to your foundation, but require being installed while the concrete is still wet.
https://www.permacolumn.com/wet-set-models

No connection to the company, etc......

 

[matt_i]

In my opinion, getting any wood up and away from the ground is best. That's what concrete is for. Google will lead you to the permacolumn.

I would think some about stick framing, it will be easier to insulate and not have the wood/ground-contact interface to worry about. Also, some studying on good concrete practices will help go a long way towards making a long-lasting building.

 

[DougWil]

I would think some about stick framing, it will be easier to insulate and not have the wood/ground-contact interface to worry about. Also, some studying on good concrete practices will help go a long way towards making a long-lasting building.

I agree 100%.

There will be little to no savings in cost when you fully finish a pole building vs wood frame.

Coming up 1 or 2 courses of CMU or concrete above the slab elevation will keep all your wood framing high and dry.

 

[ejkuhl]

I also agree on poured foundation/stick build for fully finished building. You can still use metal exterior finishes or you have many other options like typical siding and shingle roofing.

 

[the duck]

You guys sound like the coalition of stick builders!
Seriously, thanks for all the input, it's good to weigh options and think about different alternatives. I am going to talk with some local builders to see how they compare with the pole barn contractors.
Thanks again for all the input, I appreciate it. - Matt
ps still looking to hear any opinions/reviews of pole outfits in my region too

 

[383 240z]

I have a pole building for my shop. It was here when we bought the place. After all the work I put into it, running electric, building stud walls, insulating, building the ceiling. I REALLY wish it was stick built. Pole buildings go up and get dried in quick, however by the time I poured the concrete floor, built the stud walls inside the exterior purlins, sheeted the exterior, I know I went thru more lumber than I would have with stick construction. Labor as well. Run the numbers on a stick built, even if its just dried in, you can insulate and finish the inside later. Keith

 

[the duck]

An update:
I've called three different local stick builders for quotes - guys who have been recommended to me by people who have lived here their whole lives, so I'm hoping to get some good comparison pricing in the coming two weeks.
Thanks again for all the input! - Matt

 

[rieferman]

Search for threads on pole barns here. We have dispelled the "it's hard to finish interior of pole barns" myth 100 times. Many good threads on the topic. I used to sell construction and found that two buildings to same exact specs had post frame buildings 10% less expensive at the minimum. Interior finishing is fast and easy with r-value potential benefits.

There are situations for both styles of construction, and both are excellent choices if done well. We built hospitals, fire stations, homes, dream garages.... All pole barns on perma columns.

 

[mtwaterguy]

I have a pole building for my shop. It was here when we bought the place. After all the work I put into it, running electric, building stud walls, insulating, building the ceiling. I REALLY wish it was stick built. Pole buildings go up and get dried in quick, however by the time I poured the concrete floor, built the stud walls inside the exterior purlins, sheeted the exterior, I know I went thru more lumber than I would have with stick construction. Labor as well. Run the numbers on a stick built, even if its just dried in, you can insulate and finish the inside later. Keith

It always seems like that when you buy an incomplete project like yours. Evidently the original owner wasn't planning on finishing your pole barn. Otherwise he would have used commercial girts and saved you a lot of time & $$$$.

 

[the duck]

Thanks again - still haven't given up on the pole barn idea, but definitely shopping around a bit. The perma-column may be a good alternative. Still curious if anyone enthusiastically recommends a specific pole barn outfit serving upstate New York/Albany area.
Many thanks,
Matt

 

[Big Daddy Chop Shop]

Perhaps consider a steel building. Very happy with my 2nd hand (PO put up) KY steel building. No wood at all, 100% steel. Insulated, more is easily added.

 

[DougWil]

We built hospitals, fire stations, homes, dream garages.... All pole barns on perma columns.

Is that building a pole building for a hospital, as in a auxiliary building?

or

Built a hospital using pole building construction?
^ If so where and what is the name of that hospital?

 

[mtwaterguy]

Is that building a pole building for a hospital, as in a auxiliary building?

or

Built a hospital using pole building construction?
^ If so where and what is the name of that hospital?

Two separate statements. he's built those and others.... All of his pole barns use perma columns.

 

[DougWil]

Let me try it again.

Where and what is the name of a hospital built using pole barn construction?

 

[DCarr2]

I would advise against steel building if your in NYS.

while the kits, and erections are attractive, the cost of the FULL concrete footer and foundation, which will be required will cost as much if not more, than the entire steel building... I already went down THAT road

The concrete column idea seems like the most practical way to go if starting from scratch.

I would also like to point out that the rules, regulations and operating expenses for construction companies, operating in NYS (legally) is more expensive by double digit percentage points than 95% of the rest of the country. So the fact that you built a bigger building for less money in your state, means nothing to those of us in NY where everything is way more expensive...

Stick built with foundation will exceed his budget...

For instance, a 40x60x14 pole barn, with no floor is $40-50K up here.

add a foundation, your pushing 80-90K for the whole thing and that just includes a basic concrete floor if you can even manage to wiggle your way into a concrete floor with the foundation.

 

[rieferman]

Let me try it again.

Where and what is the name of a hospital built using pole barn construction?

Just as an example, check out the commercial section of Kistler Buildings website. I do not work there and am not affiliated in any way. Or check out national post frame builders association. The local ambulance building near my house is post frame and gorgeous. Luxury homes etc. The list of top end quality achieved with this building method is endless. But it's not the answer for all situations.

As for hospital to answer your question, it was years ago that I did that quote for a wing extension, and honestly cannot remember. The idea was to marry post frame onto traditional existing construction. Quoted with full amenities the same as any other style of construction. But the data above should be more than adequate to provide you solid examples. Not interested in a ******* match if that is the goal.

 

[the duck]

The point DCarr2 makes is a good one: everything is expensive in New York. Also, being about 30 minutes north of Albany, we get annual averages of 65" - 75" of snow (though this year very little).

So far I've gotten one estimate from a pole barn contractor: 30'x40'x10', 6:12 pitch trusses, two garage door openings (doors not included), two man doors, four 3'x4' windows for just under 25k assembled. Of course, that's no perma-columns, no concrete floor, no electrical, plumbing or heating, and no insulating/finishing of the interior (although it would include a white metal ceiling.

I've only lived here four years, but having lived in Pennsylvania for much of my life, NY seems way pricier. Looking for good quality, reliable company, without the cost of a second home.

Thanks for all the input - I'm going to get some quotes from both stick and pole builders and looking into the perm-column suggestion too.
Thanks again,
Matt

 

[DougWil]

Just as an example, check out the commercial section of Kistler Buildings website.

OK I did. No hospitals shown or listed that I saw.

Don't want a ******* match either, just find it hard to believe that a hospital, not an ambulance barn in the US would be pole barn construction or even wood frame.

 

[rburke65]

How about a 'pole barn' foundation.....either treated posts or perma column......and then stick build.

 

[jives]

My build in Central NY, using permacolumns and commercial girts is in the link below. It will be no harder to insulate or finish than standard stick built. In the end it is saving about $7K in concrete work for footers and a stem wall over stick built.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=287155&highlight=jives

There have been MANY discussions here and elsewhere about the advantages/disadvantages of pole vs stick. In sum, the belief that stick is better is simply a myth. Consider that stick framing started as a cheap alternative to balloon framing and timber framing because it could use mass produced lumber and nails and unskilled labor. It remains that way.

I don't know the builders your way, but Fingerlakes Construction in my area may reach north of Albany. They build a huge number of pole barns -- commercial and residential. If nothing else, check out their website. A lot of the buildings around here, like gas/mini marts, are FLC.

 

[rieferman]

Good post jives

 

[Ironhorse74]

I am the desenter on poles. I worked for a demolition contractor in Iowa when I was a kid. We pulled down 100 year old barns with untreated posts regularly. Not a one had a rotten pole. I wouldn't and didn't waste the money on my building.

YMMV

 

[DougWil]

It will be no harder to insulate or finish than standard stick built.

1st off, they did a very nice job on your building!!
But it will be harder to insulate and finish.

You have lots more clutter, odd shapes and bracing in your wall cavities vs the same sized, and depth rectangle over and over with stick using a precut batt of standardized thickness.

The girts beyond the wall cavity spaces makes the cavity depth 5.5" inches in some places and 7" in others. Where are you going to buy 7" batts? Or are you going to add 1.5" of additional insulation of some kind to fill that entire space before putting in batts?

If you don't fill that entire space, and the space behind the posts where there is no girt framing you will get air flow and convection losses.
Raising your heating bills.


The R value of a wall assembly is highly dependent on the quality of installation.
You will simply have to spend a lot more time to get that quality installation because of the non uniformity and clutter.
More info here. http://www.energyvanguard.com/blog-...-Grade-the-Installation-Quality-of-Insulation

How precise was the wall framing?
You will find out only after you have hung the sheetrock.
Will the edge of the sheets always land on a nailer?
And the un-nailed and unsupported edges of the sheetrock look like a much further span than the typical 16".

I believe you c to c spacing of your posts is slightly over 8ft, yet std sheeting is 4ftx8ft. Will the sheeting edge always land on a post to nail to?

What sheeting will span your 4ft?? roof/ceiling joists without additional framing? With typical 2ft spacing you are ready to go.

Also, the concrete poured up to the splash board is not near as good as air seal as a flat slab, foam and a sill plate with the weight of the building constantly ensuring a good seal.

It is the additional material, labor and heating costs that will whittle down the initial $7,000 you saved.

 

[rieferman]

I am the desenter on poles. I worked for a demolition contractor in Iowa when I was a kid. We pulled down 100 year old barns with untreated posts regularly. Not a one had a rotten pole. I wouldn't and didn't waste the money on my building.

YMMV

Treated posts have changed over the years, and soil conditions vary from area to area which can greatly change the equation. When I was pricing buildings, Perma-columns added only $100-150 per post, so it wasn't worth the risk around here where wet clay soils are the norm. In other areas where soils are different and shipping costs add to the perma-column cost, I can see arguments the other direction being valid. As you state, many buildings last a lonnnnng time the old fashioned way without issue.

 

[matt_i]

I am the desenter on poles. I worked for a demolition contractor in Iowa when I was a kid. We pulled down 100 year old barns with untreated posts regularly. Not a one had a rotten pole. I wouldn't and didn't waste the money on my building.

YMMV

So I would think if you had "pick of the forest" like they probably did in the 1840s and on, you could put something very moisture resistant like white oak in the ground. There are wooden ships still floating around that use live oak, sort of a close cousin to white oak, whereas one made from red oak, even though just across on the color-wheel, would fall apart very fast.

Fast forward to today and buying a white oak 4x4 or 6x6, 16 feet long would put most of us in the poorhouse. The treated SPF lumber is a lot more readily available but has some limitations.

Similar issues for not timber or balloon framing. There just is not that quantity of straight, close grained timber around that mortals can afford. Forests are harvested on a "fast" timetable (~30 years) rather than having the pick of acres of timber that was unmolested except by nature, up to that point in time.

 

[rieferman]

I found a few good links that explains R-value / insulation in a post-frame building nicely. These examples assume exterior girts to hold the siding (either sheathing with siding, steel, or whatever you choose.. all the same system) and interior re-girts to hold wall covering (e.g. vapor barrier, plywood, sheetrock, or whatever you choose.. all the same system).

Basically you have exterior wind/weather stop > dead air space > uncompressed continuous insulation > dead air space > interior wind/weather stop. There is very little continuous touch points from outside to inside to transfer outside temp to inside and vice versa. Very efficient system.

http://www.fbibuildings.com/product-options/post-frame-construction/energy-efficient-building

http://www.constructionmagnet.com/frame-building-news/research-technology-building-for-energy-efficiency

There are many more reports and articles on this topic all saying the same thing, but these two examples are quick/easy to read through for those that are interested.

 

[MagKarl]

Get a few quotes for both pole and stick on stem wall construction and I'll bet it will be an easy decision. There are many pros and cons to each method, but for larger structures the footing and stem wall cost line item is a huge differentiator.

I went pole barn for mine. I did investigate permacolumns but they are over $100 apiece, didn't come large enough for my 6x10 posts, and the closest distributor was in Montana if I remember right.

 

[jives]

1st off, they did a very nice job on your building!!
But it will be harder to insulate and finish.

You have lots more clutter, odd shapes and bracing in your wall cavities vs the same sized, and depth rectangle over and over with stick using a precut batt of standardized thickness.

The girts beyond the wall cavity spaces makes the cavity depth 5.5" inches in some places and 7" in others. Where are you going to buy 7" batts? Or are you going to add 1.5" of additional insulation of some kind to fill that entire space before putting in batts?

If you don't fill that entire space, and the space behind the posts where there is no girt framing you will get air flow and convection losses.
Raising your heating bills.


The R value of a wall assembly is highly dependent on the quality of installation.
You will simply have to spend a lot more time to get that quality installation because of the non uniformity and clutter.
More info here. http://www.energyvanguard.com/blog-...-Grade-the-Installation-Quality-of-Insulation

How precise was the wall framing?
You will find out only after you have hung the sheetrock.
Will the edge of the sheets always land on a nailer?
And the un-nailed and unsupported edges of the sheetrock look like a much further span than the typical 16".

I believe you c to c spacing of your posts is slightly over 8ft, yet std sheeting is 4ftx8ft. Will the sheeting edge always land on a post to nail to?

What sheeting will span your 4ft?? roof/ceiling joists without additional framing? With typical 2ft spacing you are ready to go.

Also, the concrete poured up to the splash board is not near as good as air seal as a flat slab, foam and a sill plate with the weight of the building constantly ensuring a good seal.

It is the additional material, labor and heating costs that will whittle down the initial $7,000 you saved.

Thanks for the complement on the barn. I disagree, however, with most of your points.

1. The gaps behind the insulation due to the double girt construction create dead air space, not gaps through which air can move through the insulation. It can actually help, but of course, if batt insulation is used it still must be installed properly.

2. The wall girts at 24" OC, perfect for 24" wide batts. At the top where there are Y braces there will need to be more labor involved in cutting and fitting. Though most bays are 8' OC, there are enough breaks (windows/doors) that using rolled batts rather than pre-cut is a better idea.

3. Because the girts are 24" OC, standard sheeting can be used. But, I have 90 2' x 8' solid core closet doors with no hardware that I will use to line the bottom 8' of the interior. Above that I'll use steel. No plans to use sheetrock.

4. The 4' OC roof trusses will easily take 4' wide batt insulation. This insulation can be purchased with a tough skrim skin that can serve as the ceiling, or steel can be used and can easily span the 4' OC trusses.

5. The slab is insulated around the entire perimeter, and in fact, creates a better insulation barrier than a frost wall with slab. In a frost wall there is a direct and un-insulated path through the concrete from the outside to the inside unless insulation is placed outside the frost wall, including above grade. Another alternative is to place insulation between the frost wall and the slab, but this leave insulation supporting the wall or inside the bulding. See:

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com...ons/48766/vapor-barrior-termination-mono-slab

 

[DougWil]

http://www.constructionmagnet.com/frame-building-news/research-technology-building-for-energy-efficiency

There are many more reports and articles on this topic all saying the same thing, but these two examples are quick/easy to read through for those that are interested.

Actually that was a poor comparison.
A newer pole building, 8" walls, wrapped with an insulated footing compared to an older, 4" stick wall, unwrapped ?? probably, uninsulated footing, probably no sill foam, with......
" Blower door testing revealed measurable air infiltration at bottom and top plates, as well as air exchange between wall cavities and the adjacent attic zone as a result of electrical and other penetrations through the framing (see Figure 14). These penetrations can be resolved with appropriate measures."

However all is not lost since it did point out the importance of reducing air infiltration, air exchange between wall cavities and penetrations between the wall cavity and attic zone.

Jives framing simply has a lot more unusual conditions for optimum insulation install vs stick that can be addressed and should be. It just takes time and money.

Due to having both interior and exterior 2x12? nailed to face of the posts at the wall/truss intersection that whole area is one big 6"x8ft penetration around the entire perimeter.
And it is right where attic insulation ends or is very shallow due to the fairly low slope and vaulted ceiling.

 

[DougWil]

1. The gaps behind the insulation due to the double girt construction create dead air space, not gaps through which air can move through the insulation. It can actually help, but of course, if batt insulation is used it still must be installed properly.

I am only going to address the 1st point since it is so far off.

Only it doesn't create a dead air space. It creates a space where a 5.5" batt doesn't have contact with the exterior sheeting and air is permitted to move from what should be cavity to cavity.
And probably with time would start separating and falling apart.

Or are you going to use insulation for a 7" space and where do you buy it?

Dead air spaces are created by stopping air infiltration to and from a cavity and entirely filling that cavity with the proper depth of insulation so it is filled but not overcompressed.

That is why many flash foam the cavity space prior to installing batts. The thin layer of spray foam entirely seals the cavity.

http://www.sbcmag.info/news/2011/sep/ways-create-energy-efficient-envelope

Otherwise you could just put 3.5" R11 insulation in a 5.5" space and have the equivalent of R19.
Instead you would probably end up with something like the equivalent of R8 because of the air flow and convection losses.

Your entire wall framing allows air to flow around the perimeter horizontally between the exterior sheathing and posts except where door or window framing stops it. Even around the corners.
And flows vertically through any gap in the girt/post framing.

That isn't a dead air space unless you entirely fill it with insulation and stop the air flow.

A good solution would have been installing well fitting 1.5" rigid foam between the girts, taping seams and foaming any gaps, then installing the exterior sheeting.

 

[mtwaterguy]

I agree with this definition of "dead air space"


"Dead air space is trapped air that has been sealed in a cavity and does not circulate. Therefore, each inch of dead air space accounts for an approximate R-1.
The true value of insulation depends upon creating a “dead air space”. The success of creating that dead air space directly effects the R-value."

 

[jives]

So, the last posts from DougWil and Mtwaterguy had me doing some thinking and research. Though it is unlikely there will be much vertical convective air flow, and the amount of horizontal air flow will not be enhanced by convection loops, and because convective loops are highly diminished if one side of the fiberglass has an air impermeable barrier, my current plan may not be as bad as reported.

Quoted from a discussion board on this matter of open air cavities in an otherwise insulated wall; "While this and other studies have demonstrated up to 40% reduction in effective R-value with "typically" to "poorly" installed fiberglass batts (such as in the attachment), this Canadian NRC study also stated:

"However, if it can be ensured that one side of the batt is flush with an air-impermeable material, thermal performance is maintained. It is this effect that is reflected in the National Building Code requirement that batt insulation products be installed so that at least one face is in full and continuous contact with cladding, sheathing or other air-impermeable membrane."

But, I have learned something, and to be on the safe side I should take the extra time and insulate the air space to make it a true dead air space. Doing so may also help retard the spread of flames.

Thanks, gents. Ya' learn something new everyday.

 

[DougWil]

Thanks, gents. Ya' learn something new everyday.

I just want guys to end up with the happy, warm, long lasting shop they want.

I like your solid wood doors to keep boys and basketballs from destroying interior sheeting... where did you score the 90 s.c. doors??

And the metal upper walls and ceiling.

I did mine in white white tuff rib and couldn't be more pleased.
Looks very sharp and clean, washable, great light reflection and really makes it easy to add a circuit by just unscrewing a few panels.

 

[Pwrgeek]

I am the desenter on poles. I worked for a demolition contractor in Iowa when I was a kid. We pulled down 100 year old barns with untreated posts regularly. Not a one had a rotten pole. I wouldn't and didn't waste the money on my building.

YMMV

I have some experience on this matter. I work in the electric utility industry. We are something of experts when it comes to putting wood in contact with dirt. I have worked everywhere from the desert southwest to the gulf coast of tx and I can tell you no matter what you coat/treat wood with the life of it in contact with dirt is highly dependent on the climate. The general rule of thumb is the life of wood in contact with dirt is 100 * (10 / annual rainfall in inches). In the desert southwest it was not uncommon for us to encounter 75-80 year old poles that were untreated and in as good of shape as the day they were set. On the other hand in the gulf we would be replacing poles with Creosote and Copper Naphthenate injected in them (which is way more protection than any pressure treated lumber you can buy at the Home Depot) after only 20 years and think we did okay on the life of them. Basically if I were building for the long term I would elevate the wood and let the concrete do its job and touch the dirt.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[justanengineer]

JMO but with the incredibly damp soil and weather we have I'd consider permacolumns (and Tyvek if siding with tin) a must-have if you want your building to last more than a decade or two. I've raised and repaired too many that had poles directly in the ground, all had 25-95% of the wood rotted away and thanks to the EPA wood treatments are only getting worse.

Personally, given the choice between the two I'll always go stick-built. You can either build it solid and pay a bit more or you can cheap out and regret it later. Contrary to popular gripes construction here isnt any worse than elsewhere, plan ~$40/ft2 finished and heated and unless you get bent over hard you'll be fine.

 

[jives]

I just want guys to end up with the happy, warm, long lasting shop they want.

I like your solid wood doors to keep boys and basketballs from destroying interior sheeting... where did you score the 90 s.c. doors??
.

A local college renovated their dorms and advertised them on CL. They are sliding closet doors, each weighing 60 lbs. The backsides are relatively clean with no pulls. Only needed to remove the hanging hardware from the top edge. Here is the best part, $1 per door. Had to rent a UHaul trailer and took 2 trips to load the 5400 lbs of doors. When attached, the doors will rest on a 2 x 4 PT board that runs along the base of the walls.

 

[DougWil]

Here is the best part, $1 per door.

Killer, 6 cents a square foot!
You can't even buy paint for that.