Pole barn saga....

[Cuda416]

Good morning everyone,

It's been a while since I've been here. No reason to come around since nothing has happened with my barn other than it is still laying on the pallets it was delivered on, next to a pad that isn't done.

Some of this is me venting, some of it will get me beat up for being an idiot, but mostly I'm looking for options and opinions on what I will describe.... Many things in advance for not being too brutal and being as productive as possible.

In November, I had paid half up front, with a promise of the other half "when I was happy with the work" to a "well known" local excavator to build me a 38x50 pad, 12 inches thick for my 36x48 Barn. The edges sloped down for the rain etc and things looked good for a while. i was promised it would be done in a week, then the guy doing the work got sick, so a couple of days go by and it rains. Boss says he doesn't want to mess up the pad by rolling black dirt up on it, seems legit, I'm no pro and it may be that's the right thing to do.

Anyway, it's only recently gotten to the point that it stops raining long enough for the ground to dry fully and it would start raining again. It's robably been about 6 weeks (until we got 6-7 inches last week, which cut ruts into the pad), since the rains subsided long enough for the ground to dry, and I find out the Boss has been in the hospital for a month (he's 68 and has had several heart attacks) recovering from open heart surgery. I get some apologies etc and a suggestion that I should probably get someone else to finish the work. After s short conversation we decide he'll finish it when he's feeling better, which doesn't seem like a big deal, he's the boss, he's not actually doing the work afterall... So a month goes by and nothing so I call him back, to find out he's back in the hospital. Now, I'm all for his privacy but jiminy cricket, it's business, let me know what's going on... anyway, I finally had had enough and told him it was time to part ways and he agrees, with lots apologies etc. That don't get my pad done...

Now, for some reason, getting someone to cut 18" holes 48 inches deep takes an act of God around here and I finally find someone willing to take a look who has all of the right equipment (bobcat and 18" auger with extension), progress.... The guy comes out to the house only to tall me, there is no way the pad is ready for concrete which his primary business and asks if it had even been compacted. Here's the rub, I thought it was soft when it was dry after getting "rolled" and questioned the original guy who assured me it would "harden" in a couple of weeks (that was early December).

I'm sure I'll get a few folks who will simply "call me out" for not being on top of the guy etc and maybe rightly so, but dang it, when a guy says, "Yeah, I can do that" and they've been in the business for 50 years, verified by half the town who says "Yeah, he's a good guy and well known, does good work), I tend to believe people, that was a lesson I'll not soon forget.

I can take the hit for making the mistake, but now I have a choice to make.

1. Continue down this path, having the pad re-done, hoping the materials are still good enough to complete my barn.

2. Scrapping the pole barn idea and going with a pre-fab'd metal building on a traditional foundation. Then selling the kit at a loss. A guy down the road did one of these and it was done in just a few weeks including the full foundation etc. The building went up in a few days.

3. Going with a traditional foundation, but building my wooden pole barn on it using those big steel brackets that get cemented into the foundation.

Other options are welcome

I am going to get the old guy out to talk and try to get some of my (if not all) money refunded and he can take his materials and equipment with him.

 

[nomadskidoo]

Cuda:I've just had about the same troubles,contractor walked off the40'x64' after 90 ,(cost me $30K extra, Attg General has has 16 other complaints for this guy,)I hired a new contractor to fix it(had to disassemble complete unit total rebuild),2nd guy cost me $4,400 in overcharging for materials not even used,my post will be closed.I'm doing the rest of the building myself,figured,wood screw every thing make a mistake,take it back apart,it's just about impossible to find a good contractor,Amish get units up in 4 days,rain or shine.

 

[Cuda416]

it's just about impossible to find a good contractor,Amish get units up in 4 days,rain or shine.

Funny thing is that guy I hired says the same thing. Good news is I was able to arrange a meeting with him tomorrow at the building site. Hopefully he's interesting in maintaining his good name.

I cannot imagine being out for something like this $30k. I'd be done and roast marshmallows for a week. Dang.

To be fair, as hard as it is, I think that it's because all of the good contractors are taken up by bigger jobs etc. I hope that's the case anyway. When I talk to contractors around here about pole barns, thay all assume "Steel building"...

Anyway, thanks for chiming in.

 

[nomadskidoo]

Cuda' Oh Yes a Crazy World we get to deal with People that say "The Lord will trust me">Well that guy cost me another $ 5k in over charges ,,I finished the 3400sf walls of insulation,tin,in 80 days.1 Man'Band.the 1,200sf floor(attic) took me 2 weeks,(8'x150'),with 1/2" floor,,,,,oh it was 90 DAYs the guy tried to do the Building.The "Would of should of"I should have done a spray foam roof over the ruined roof,then no replacement roof,them ceiling,& insulation,all done @$5,000 not $12,000. with roof replacement,& all the extra work,hind side 20/20!A lot of # I know,you don't want know what I've got it in now!Sad I did a year of GJ checking & still got took!check out https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/investigations/readers-watchdog/2018/03/26/iowa-contr...

 

[WausauDug]

Cuda your dead on, I've been in the business. Post frame construction is hard work, heavy posts, long sheets of steel, big nails and then there's the digging... Most guys will frame houses if they can get away from doing these. If the gravel is in the pad has to be compacted otherwise they will just cave in and be a mess while you build

 

[lakeroadster]

Let us help you... tell us more about the site prep and the fill material.

Did they remove the top soil?

How much fill was needed?

What type of fill material was used?

Was the fill compacted as it was being placed?

How about posting up some photo's?

I'd suggest you check out these threads and their links. The more you know, the more you can figure out if your contractor is doing right by you.

1. Picking a Pole Building Contractor: Specifically... Look at the site prep and the concrete sections https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=353625
3. Going To Pour Concrete Slab, How Will I Know I Got The Strength I Wanted? https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=353845
   
4. Proctor Compaction Testing of Sub-Grade Material. https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=346747
   
5. Slab On Grade.. More Opinions Than Carter's Got Liver Pills. https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=326215&highlight=handbook
   
6. Selecting Sub Grade Materials: Soil Compaction Handbook. http://www.multiquip.com/multiquip/...dbook_low_res_0212_DataId_59525_Version_1.pdf

 

[nomadskidoo]

Lakeroaster has the check list!I did look at 1 building,talked with that owner but still got took!Guy estimated fill at 160ton(10 truck loads) well 45 days later add 700 tons ($7k).take lg X w X d= needed fill.I cut out the sod while his crew watched me,just a crazy crew,always different guys.Cudas right could have had a wienne roast,2nd contractor said burn it down,,,glade to hear Posts.

 

[Bob P1]

Sounds like a good time to reevaluate the building. I have seen many guys build a pole barn, then wish they built a traditional one, footings, foundation etc. I don't think it is as much $$$ wise in building, but what you have after the construction is done.

 

[ahaugh]

What part of TX are you in?

 

[Cuda416]

Cuda' Oh Yes a Crazy World we get to deal with People that say "The Lord will trust me">Well that guy cost me another $ 5k in over charges ,,I finished the 3400sf walls of insulation,tin,in 80 days.1 Man'Band.the 1,200sf floor(attic) took me 2 weeks,(8'x150'),with 1/2" floor,,,,,oh it was 90 DAYs the guy tried to do the Building.The "Would of should of"I should have done a spray foam roof over the ruined roof,then no replacement roof,them ceiling,& insulation,all done @$5,000 not $12,000. with roof replacement,& all the extra work,hind side 20/20!A lot of # I know,you don't want know what I've got it in now!Sad I did a year of GJ checking & still got took!check out https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/investigations/readers-watchdog/2018/03/26/iowa-contr...

It's this sort of story that caused me to look around for so long and ask people who have known the guy for years. He was actually recommended to me by another contractor in town who didn't have time, but tried, to do the work themselves. At this point, I don't think the issues are intentional or based on a lack of character, and I will be speaking to him on site this afternoon to discuss the way forward.

Cuda your dead on, I've been in the business. Post frame construction is hard work, heavy posts, long sheets of steel, big nails and then there's the digging... Most guys will frame houses if they can get away from doing these. If the gravel is in the pad has to be compacted otherwise they will just cave in and be a mess while you build

Thanks, i know all too well there are always the 10% at the bottom who drag people down with them, and 10% at the top (my 10% rule) most in the middle are "just fine". My brother is a Master electrician and an awesome one at that. Old school work ethic etc. I expect that from people and I think for the most part it's still prevalent , but dang it's hard sifting through the cruft left over.

Let us help you... tell us more about the site prep and the fill material.

Did they remove the top soil?
Yes

How much fill was needed?
The ground was only 4 inches off from one corner to the other, but I asked for a 12" lift

What type of fill material was used?
Around 4 or 5 inches of #2 base, covered by 3/4 with fines.

Was the fill compacted as it was being placed?
yes, it was compacted with a small riding on roller with every layer.

How about posting up some photo's?
Sure, I'll post some when I get home.

I'd suggest you check out these threads and their links. The more you know, the more you can figure out if your contractor is doing right by you.

1. Picking a Pole Building Contractor: Specifically... Look at the site prep and the concrete sections https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=353625
3. Going To Pour Concrete Slab, How Will I Know I Got The Strength I Wanted? https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=353845
   
4. Proctor Compaction Testing of Sub-Grade Material. https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=346747
   
5. Slab On Grade.. More Opinions Than Carter's Got Liver Pills. https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=326215&highlight=handbook
   
6. Selecting Sub Grade Materials: Soil Compaction Handbook. http://www.multiquip.com/multiquip/...dbook_low_res_0212_DataId_59525_Version_1.pdf

Thanks, I'll definitely look these over!

Lakeroaster has the check list!I did look at 1 building,talked with that owner but still got took!Guy estimated fill at 160ton(10 truck loads) well 45 days later add 700 tons ($7k).take lg X w X d= needed fill.I cut out the sod while his crew watched me,just a crazy crew,always different guys.Cudas right could have had a wienne roast,2nd contractor said burn it down,,,glade to hear Posts.

Wow, I'm just trying to keep the weenie roasting in the firepit where ie belongs.

Sounds like a good time to reevaluate the building. I have seen many guys build a pole barn, then wish they built a traditional one, footings, foundation etc. I don't think it is as much $$$ wise in building, but what you have after the construction is done.

I'm not ruling out changing direction entirely but I'm on a budget and it's pretty tight. This is not my forever home so going through this is a learning experience for when that day comes. I need a place to work on my 70 Cuda' Vert" hence the name, and my 69 Dart Vert

What part of TX are you in?

Castroville, blink and you'll miss it. I'm loving it.

 

[nomadskidoo]

I respect all Post,and Have been in Business for 36 Years,& have the understanding of how the World works,,I hope the Guys can research before they,,Build,GJ,, the Best choice for finding hopes.thanks so much,I just did the last North wall tin,,6,000sq ft in 5months of,now back to 12 hour days for 5 months.Then Back to Restoring Stainless Trim (1901-1970)

 

[Cuda416]

I was able to have a long discussion with my contractor and I believe things went very well. As promised though, here are the pictures of the pad.

He's promised to get the pad finished starting Monday or Tuesday. I'll run batter boards and string lines, mark post hole locations, then next Saturday, he'll get the holes cut then I can move forward. If that happens, I'll have a lot less heartache about the whole thing.

A couple of people have sent me PM's asking who the guy is, and I'll say here I'd rather not say until I know for sure I'm well and screwed. The simple fact he is willing to talk about things. I did tell him he needs to be more communicative and let me know what's going on and he agreed to do so.

 

[lakeroadster]

Time to re-evaluate Cuda.

You are going to have cracking issues with your slab. It doesn't appear that they removed the organic materials before placing the fill.

And when they auger in the holes you'll end up with dirt mixed in with the fill material and then proper compaction can't take place.

Why would they place the fill materials "before" augering the holes and placing the poles?

That's just ***-backwards.

 

[rusty1]

...built my barn on a floating slab, used sand for fill right over the grass, poured concrete, built building, still looks good 33 years later, not even a crack in the concrete...

 

[Cuda416]

Time to re-evaluate Cuda.

You are going to have cracking issues with your slab. It doesn't appear that they removed the organic materials before placing the fill.

And when they auger in the holes you'll end up with dirt mixed in with the fill material and then proper compaction can't take place.

Why would they place the fill materials "before" augering the holes and placing the poles?

That's just ***-backwards.

I watched them remove the organics, you can't see the pile in these pictrues.

 

[Deezler]

T
Why would they place the fill materials "before" augering the holes and placing the poles?
That's just ***-backwards.

Huh? This is how it's commonly done. You prep the site and the building pad first, then erect the building. You don't want to only be compacting fill materials inside of your posts and stressing them out, ideally the whole pad is uniformly compacted already before you start doing anything. But then yeah, you compact again pre slab-pour just to be certain.

That pad looks pretty decent to me, actually, Cuda. Yes, my preference would have been to strip the top soil first and then build the whole pad up, but lots of people get away with it like this. Maybe you are worrying a bit too much?

 

[Deezler]

I watched them remove the organics, that's the pile right in front of the pad. I'll admit I'm a bit confused by your statements. Can you elaborate?

What pile? I don't see it in your pics. But if they stripped the top soil and then laid that pad down, you are in good shape. You can rent a skid steer with a post hole digger yourself, no? And then a walk-behind plate compactor to make sure everything is ready for 'crete, too.

Just build it!

 

[Cuda416]

lakeroadster, you have to remember this was started months ago, and the grass around the edges as grown and spread.

 

[Cuda416]

What pile? I don't see it in your pics. But if they stripped the top soil and then laid that pad down, you are in good shape.

Yeah, sorry, I thought I had the pile in the pics. I've corrected the post.

 

[Cuda416]

Huh? This is how it's commonly done. You prep the site and the building pad first, then erect the building. You don't want to only be compacting fill materials inside of your posts and stressing them out, ideally the whole pad is uniformly compacted already before you start doing anything. But then yeah, you compact again pre slab-pour just to be certain.

That pad looks pretty decent to me, actually, Cuda. Yes, my preference would have been to strip the top soil first and then build the whole pad up, but lots of people get away with it like this. Maybe you are worrying a bit too much?

Thanks, I've done what i thought was a ton of research and decided to do it this way instead of filling in the building afterwards like you say. I don't like that idea for many reasons, mostly because it provides an opportunity to damage the posts etc.

I may in fact be worrying too much, but as part of my "research" I read a lot of horror stories here so I'm a bit on edge where my money is concerned. I'd rather be wrong believe me.

 

[Cuda416]

Here's a pic showing the pile of organics.

 

[lakeroadster]

Huh? This is how it's commonly done. You prep the site and the building pad first, then erect the building. You don't want to only be compacting fill materials inside of your posts and stressing them out, ideally the whole pad is uniformly compacted already before you start doing anything. But then yeah, you compact again pre slab-pour just to be certain.

I agree about prep, meaning level the site, but you don't go to all the effort to compact the fill and then auger holes, that's counter productive.

When the Amish folks built my Lester barn in Ohio they leveled the site with a bobcat and we established where the final grade would be. They then augered the holes, installed the poles, installed girts, filled and compacted the holes, then back filled and compacted the sub grade and poured the concrete slab.

Very tidy, clean and well thought out. We didn't have any sub grade fill that had soil mixed in with it.

I watched them remove the organics, you can't see the pile in these pictrues.

Thanks for clarifying

 

[Cuda416]

filled and compacted the holes,

Just curious, what did they fill the holes with?

 

[lakeroadster]

Just curious, what did they fill the holes with?

The same stuff that they augered out. Native soil.

 

[Cuda416]

The same stuff that they augered out. Native soil.

We didn't have any sub grade fill that had soil mixed in with it.

I'm confused by these two statements...

 

[lakeroadster]

I'm confused by these two statements...

• We didn't have any sub grade fill that had soil mixed in with it.

• The same stuff that they augered out. Native soil.

The sub grade fill is aggregate. You don't want to mix soil into the aggregate, it is detrimental to compaction.

When you put the compacted aggregate fill down first and then auger the holes, you end up with a mixture of aggregate and soil and then a bunch of soil on top of the aggregate. Not ideal by any measure.

When you auger the holes first, install girts, fill holes, then place the compacted fill there isn't the cross contamination.

 

[Cuda416]

When you put the compacted aggregate fill down first and then auger the holes, you end up with a mixture of aggregate and soil and then a bunch of soil on top of the aggregate. Not ideal by any measure.

Ok, I see what you're saying however, if the subgrade is compacted correctly, then a simple pass of a broom should be able to take care of it I'd think. I realize the auger will chuck the soil on top of the pad and I understand your concern. However by the time I get to the concrete stage, I'll certainly clean the top off and possibly compact one last time with a vibratory walk behind unit.

I do appreciate you taking the time to answer my question and explain your position. Our barns should look very similar by the way. I can't wait.

-C

 

[WausauDug]

Cuda your looking great. This is how its done all over, even TX... Post frame is supposed to be bigger, faster and cheaper and doesn't need a slab to get you going v$$. Happy to help keep asking

 

[Cuda416]

Cuda your looking great. This is how its done all over, even TX... Post frame is supposed to be bigger, faster and cheaper and doesn't need a slab to get you going v$$. Happy to help keep asking

Thanks, this forum has given me a lot of info over the last year, hopefully, I'll be able to contribute back in some constructive way in the future with what I learn and my own experience. That all said, as you can see, I ask a lot of question so you may live to regret that last part of your comment

 

[TractorJeff]

For what its worth: The more it rains on the Fill you have, the more it "naturally" settles!

 

[rmalkow2]

I agree about prep, meaning level the site, but you don't go to all the effort to compact the fill and then auger holes, that's counter productive.

When the Amish folks built my Lester barn in Ohio they leveled the site with a bobcat and we established where the final grade would be. They then augered the holes, installed the poles, installed girts, filled and compacted the holes, then back filled and compacted the sub grade and poured the concrete slab.

Lakeroadster is 100% correct. This is exactly the process used to build my pole barn last summer by a local contractor I picked that had put up many, many barns. It came out fine and I have no complaints.
Yes, some people build the pad first because they plan up front to have a cement floor installed. Remember there are lots of pole barns in this country that only have dirt floors and will never see cement. That's the purpose of post frame construction. The posts are the foundation.
In my case we started with a fairly level area of the yard, they stripped the topsoil and grass at the same time they were setting posts and starting to attack girts. It made the whole process more efficient.
Don't mistake someones "common" way with being the only "right" way.

Your pad area looks usable from pictures. It may require additional compacting before cement is poured but that's normal. To auger the holes the important part now is to properly lay them out so you end up with a square building and straight sides. Like many tasks, the preparation and measuring is most important. If you are not up to the layout task then before you just rent an auger and start drilling holes all over the yard I would suggest you figure out the contractor issue and see if your guy can actually complete the job or, find a new one that can do it correctly.

Best of luck with the project. You may go through some pains in the build process but will love using the finished product.

 

[Cuda416]

Lakeroadster is 100% correct. This is exactly the process used to build my pole barn last summer by a local contractor I picked that had put up many, many barns. It came out fine and I have no complaints.
Yes, some people build the pad first because they plan up front to have a cement floor installed. Remember there are lots of pole barns in this country that only have dirt floors and will never see cement. That's the purpose of post frame construction. The posts are the foundation.
In my case we started with a fairly level area of the yard, they stripped the topsoil and grass at the same time they were setting posts and starting to attack girts. It made the whole process more efficient.
Don't mistake someones "common" way with being the only "right" way.

Your pad area looks usable from pictures. It may require additional compacting before cement is poured but that's normal. To auger the holes the important part now is to properly lay them out so you end up with a square building and straight sides. Like many tasks, the preparation and measuring is most important. If you are not up to the layout task then before you just rent an auger and start drilling holes all over the yard I would suggest you figure out the contractor issue and see if your guy can actually complete the job or, find a new one that can do it correctly.

Best of luck with the project. You may go through some pains in the build process but will love using the finished product.

100% about what exactly? You just said, that, and then said Don't mistake someones "common" way with being the only "right" way. Don't get me wrong, lakeroadster makes very good points and I appreciate each and every one. His, and your crews did what was right for where you guys are. I've lived in MN (born and raised) and in CO for 6 years so I've seen both places and they are at far ends of the spectrum with respect to conditions. My brother in northern MN had his pad built first because his barn is next to a lake (within 150 feet) and he needed to build it up first as the ground was too wet. Cutting holes in that situation first would have been a disaster in my opinion, but clearly i don't build pole barns for a living, but the crew that did his do, and they know the area and what works. His has been up for around 15 years and looks new except for the spiderwebs.

There is no 100% right way to build a pole barn as the conditions often dictate how things are done. Even foundations for traditional houses are done differently in TX than in say, the upper midwest. It's all relative to where you are building. I've read so many threads that way "this way is the 100% correct way to do it" I can't even count them. There are however common issues like proper site leveling, compaction, etc. With all of the varying ways to actually design a post frame building (yes I know they were for animals, equpment and hay before they were "shops"), there are also as many ways to build them as well.

In the end, I simply chose to do it in the order that made sense to me. I don't like the idea of someone plowing into my posts when they are placing or compacting the fill. Seems to me, that the simple act of placing a tonne of material next to a post and then compacting it in, puts undue stress on the post. Makes more sense to me to have the pad down, then cut the hole, then place it, brace it, girt it, fill it, no drama.

Thanks for your input, it's greatly valued since as I've said before, this is not my last home and I'll very likely build another shop down the road so any and all opinions go towards my "edumacation".

 

[Cuda416]

For what its worth: The more it rains on the Fill you have, the more it "naturally" settles!

Well I'l likely have the most settled pole ban pad in south Texas then

 

[nomadskidoo]

Cuda416 I like your progress,with my saga of contractor issues,be sure to get a Bond coverage from contractor,references(call as many as you can find and go view buildings)sorry to be so picky,looking back for my roof replacement,I should've just "re-/screwed roof" then spray foam for any sealing of distorted screwing hardware issues not replacement of roof.Would've saved me $5k after insulation cost..It's getting so bad my LG fridge cannot be fixed in 7 weeks waiting on parts(I found,parts on Amazon thou) 10year warrenty,and over 10 hours on the phone with LG then A&E,just getting to be a normal anymore,good luck!

 

[Cuda416]

Thanks Nomad, My guy is coming out tomorrow to finish the pad. It was supposed to be today but it changed. He actually surprised me by calling me this time. it's the first call I've gotten from him so I think he's serious about getting it done.

I agree on the the fridge/appliance issue. That's what we get for helping certain countries into the WTO... I'll refrain from turning this thread into a rant about that topic, but I'm fine taking it somewhere else.

Anyway, I'm going to be doing the bulk of the actual construction myself, or at least that's my plan right now.

Thanks again to everyone who has commented and offered advice.

 

[nomadskidoo]

Cuda416 Good for you for taking the job on,just rent equitment needed and it'll at least get done,there's a lot of good contractors,just take 1 job at a time.I'm onto doing electricial(&have a electrician finish wire box)I got a lot done over 4 months ,keep checking GJ for resourses,a big brother for me, Best of Luck!

 

[Cuda416]

Good news on the saga, my contractor has been out a couple of times working the top, adding a bit of material here and there, rolling it out and making it flat (and compacted). We were scheduled to cut the holes this weekend, but the weather is turning against us so that part may once again get put off for another few days. Getting close though.

 

[nomadskidoo]

Cuda:Sounds like things are moving On ,but with the rain delay,it does help settle the dirt work,just keep in contact,my contractor made the front page of states biggest paper,he took another $204,000 from 17 customers,nothing the State can about him?With any future work try to get a couple of bids to keep things inline of cost.Best of Luck!My fridge parts just showed up,funny!

 

[Cuda416]

Time to revisit this thread. i finally got the post holes dug and the posts planted into the ground. One step closer and wishing even more that I'd gone with a steel building. Can't really turn back now so onward I go.

New problem though. Over the winter months, it seemed as though the lumber for the barn was doing OK, but as is got hotter and hotter, things dried out more than I'd realized and now I have a bunch of warped boards that I can't nail from one end to the other without popping nails out. It looks "ok" in the stack but now that it's loose, it's twisting like crazy.

Is there any way to deal with warped lumber or am I stuck replacing it?

 

[Millcreekmadman]

I would say you are sol on the boards. Salvage what you can and move on.