Pole barn starting...questioning builders method of setting posts...need experienced

[TheGator]

Good even all. I've been anxiously awaiting the start of my new 40x60 building and the time has arrived. My builder started this week and due to weather has only set about 1/3 of the posts...but after seeing his method and materials I'm getting nervous. So here is what he's doing and using:
6x6 posts- UC4A ground contact rated apparently from Lowes
24" hole about 50-60" deep
3 bags concrete per hole as a footer mixed and allowed to setup before dropping post
Piece of 2x6 ground contact rated (unsure of spec, not listed) anchored to base of post as a cleat to combat uplift and spread load over footer
Back filling hole with 1" crushed limestone

Here are my concerns:
1-In SW Ohio clay soil I thought UC4B would be minimum pressure treat rating for structural pilings. So I'm concerned about longevity already there
2- Not knowing the actual pressure treat rating of the 2x6 cleat I worry it will rot first and cause setting. I also question the actual strength it adds against uplift simply screwed to bottom of post.
3- The gravel back fill presents a couple concerns. I am located on high ground that has slight slope, so most surface water drains quickly. However the clay soil holds alot of moisture. I noticed the three holes he had drilled and not set anything in yet had completely filled with watee in few hours. We had some light rain that day, but not much. This really concerned me as once the post is set, the gravel backfill will act like a catch basin for water and basically keep the posts submerged frequently if not continuously. Also, if the water in gravel subsides...the gravel will allow air to penetrate and create a perfect condition for rot.
4-I've pulled fence posts out of gravel and out of clay...they come out of gravel much easier. I question the gravel backfill actually hindering resistance to uplift.

This builder is local and been around for quite awhile. Came highly recommended and his finished products are top notch from what I've personally seen...above grade anyways.
However, seeing how things are being done and having found out through conversation firsthand that he was completely unaware of the different ground contact pressure treat grades...I'm rather nervous. I realize this is a polebarn and likely won't last forever, but if built properly it should have a long life expectancy. Not to mention I'll have $60k+ into it once it's all finished out. I would really like to be confident that investment will last 30+ years if cared for properly.
I am going to call him tomorrow to further discuss this but honestly I'm thinking hard about either telling him the posts already set at least need to be removed and replaced with UC4B rated timbers and back filled with removed clay and the rest of them done in same fashion...If that's not willing to be done, I may be pulling the plug, paying for the days labor he has in it and materials other than the posts and finding a new builder that I'm more comfortable with. I dread doing either, but this is my money he's playing with and I expect a proprely built product for it.
Am I justified in my concerns or just being OCD and a miserable customer? Any input much appreciated.

 

[Chris705]

Sounds to me like your a pretty educated customer, don’t settle for what you know to be in correct. Approach the contractor with kind simple questions and educate him on the different levels of pressure treatment that you get from a lumberyard or on line from a manufacturer. He may choose to remove and replace the poles but possibly offer him an alternative way out, such as the post sleeve protectors they make out of plastic, using the concrete posts that others on this site use, etc. Giving him options to make this correct allows him to have input. If there are building plans I would assume there were no specs on the pressure treatment? So you can’t point to that as part of the implied contract....
Hope things work out for you as it sounds like otherwise he’s a decent builder.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

I think your on spot on with your concerns. get rid of that 2x6 on the bottom especially if he can't verify what class it is. It's probably useless anyway.

also get rid of that gravel and backfill with the existing soil.

my post are 4b (whether they need to be who knows)

I'm by no means a expert but just a guy like you that had a barn built.

One thing for sure now is the time if your going to make any changes.

 

[Vicious_Cycle]

Go through the pain now, get it straightened out before he proceeds. I think your concerns are 100% valid.

 

[barks]

How does all this square with the written contract and specifications you and he signed?

 

[TheGator]

I try to educate myself as much as possible on any large undertaking whether I'm doing the work or subbing it out. In this case, Ive been researching and planning for a few years so I've gotten up to speed on most of what's going to be done. There are building plans. In my county any building with a roof span over 36' requires stamped engineering plans to be submitted for permits. However, I do not have a copy at hand presently as the builder took care of the permits and plan submission but I will try to get my hands on what was submitted if things don't go smoothly. Technically I have not signed any type of contract yet so I'm unsure if that's a card in my favor or his should things go south. I like everything about the guy other than this issue with the poles. He's been great to deal with and as I said I've seen his work and have nothing bad to say. Unfortunately , he is well along in his career and it would seem to me he's gotten to the point of not keeping himself up to date on materials and techniques and is on the downward slope. Being a 34yr. old master auto/light diesel tech I see that a lot with older guys in my line of work. It's not that they aren't good at what they do, they just have let the times pass them by and often don't have the drive to catch themselves up once they get so far behind.
I generally take the "you catch more flies with sugar than ****" approach to conflicts and will certainly not go on the attack with him. I just hope that he doesn't get overly defensive or outright pissed off and proud as I have little tolerance for that and it will likely end in finding another builder and a lengthy delay to the project.

 

[Radix2]

Accordingly to the manufacturers, structural Piling's for permanent structures should be 4b.

The whole deal with which backfill seems to me to be over rated, whether you have wet clay, stone, water or whatever who knows what will really happen. Personally, the argument for native soil makes the most sense to me. But posts better be able to take the worst, cause you might have it.

Attaching blocks to the side of the post with bolts makes more sense than applying it to the bottom with screws..

I'd want the skirt boards to be 4b too


Sounds like a good builder, tell him what you want, be fair about the business aspects, he works for you, lumber yards exchange materials, no need for conflict.

 

[GarageGuy89]

Gator,

I think you need to go with a product/procedure that give you piece of mind. Otherwise you will be cursing yourself all the years to come, whether it fails or not.

I also think your concerns are valid, however, you may be over thinking it. I'm by no means an expert on this pressure treated stuff, but the 4B material to my knowledge is listed as heavy duty (ie. marine, saltwater, tropical climates) Of which Ohio sees none of. However, they are the backbone of the structure, so I don't think your too far off in your critic on this one.

I think the cleat serves it purposes. Don't see why it would rot out any faster than the pole itself.

As for the back fill material, I think this is essential. You either have a free draining rock up against wood, or a saturated clay up against the wood. When it is wet they will see water either way. The key is that the gravel allows the water to drain moisture out of the area. Image a wet suite that gets water in it, vs if you had gravel between you and the wet suite. Compacted gravel also provides superior support, vs clay.

Just my 2 cents...i'm no expert.

 

[Radix2]

Here is the specifics from the wood standards group on the UC ratings.

Notice that the 4A material is for non critical poles like fences, etc

For structural poles holding up permanent buildings 4B is the minimum.

http://www.awpa.com/standards/U1excerpt.pdf

Note that there are higher classifications for marine, etc uses.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

I try to educate myself as much as possible on any large undertaking whether I'm doing the work or subbing it out. In this case, Ive been researching and planning for a few years so I've gotten up to speed on most of what's going to be done. There are building plans. In my county any building with a roof span over 36' requires stamped engineering plans to be submitted for permits. However, I do not have a copy at hand presently as the builder took care of the permits and plan submission but I will try to get my hands on what was submitted if things don't go smoothly. Technically I have not signed any type of contract yet so I'm unsure if that's a card in my favor or his should things go south. I like everything about the guy other than this issue with the poles. He's been great to deal with and as I said I've seen his work and have nothing bad to say. Unfortunately , he is well along in his career and it would seem to me he's gotten to the point of not keeping himself up to date on materials and techniques and is on the downward slope. Being a 34yr. old master auto/light diesel tech I see that a lot with older guys in my line of work. It's not that they aren't good at what they do, they just have let the times pass them by and often don't have the drive to catch themselves up once they get so far behind.
I generally take the "you catch more flies with sugar than ****" approach to conflicts and will certainly not go on the attack with him. I just hope that he doesn't get overly defensive or outright pissed off and proud as I have little tolerance for that and it will likely end in finding another builder and a lengthy delay to the project.

I'll say one thing your a hell of a lot more educate about barns then I was when I built mine................oh by the way I think it's "more flies with sugar then vinegar"..............lol

 

[rburke65]

I agree....a lot more educated than I for sure. If you know the pokes to be questionable speak up now.

 

[LifeLongWNYer]

I'm getting ready to build a pole barn, so am interested in how tis turns out. Can someone explain what "4A" and "4B" mean?

As a "devils' advocate type" question, how can it be justified that the utilities industry sinks poles on the ground, simply by drilling a hole, dropping in the pole, and backfilling with whatever ( meaning EVERYTHING that came out, goes back in ) spoil came out of the hole? I do know that they really compact the backfill, the rule of thumb around here is that ALL the spoil which came out of the hole, goes back in. Considering the volume that the **** of the pole is, that means they really pack the back fill in.


.

 

[MrSurly]

I feel 100% with you on all of your points.
I built my building myself and I had my design drawn and blessed by an engineer (a P.E) whose specialty is pole barn structures. The posts *MUST BE* at least UC4B in order to comply with *any* standardized building code (IBC, etc) and with AWPA.
My guy spec’ed;
6x6 AWPA UC4B *OR* CCA 0.60 retention;
4’ deep 18” diameter holes;
two bags of Sakrete;
Two 2x6 cleats nailed to the sides of the post with spec HDG nails (6ea);
Back filled with soil.
I actually wanted to backfill (pour) with concrete and he advised against it.

I couldn’t get UC4B from Lowes, I had to source from a specialty outfit that supplies the highway bridge, railroad and marine structural contractors. Everything they treat is CCA 0.80+.
I would strongly agree that you should NOT leave the UC4A stuff in the ground as it won’t last.

For a quick primer on wood treatment, check out http://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/pole-building-faqs/treated-poles/






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[MrSurly]

I'm getting ready to build a pole barn, so am interested in how tis turns out. Can someone explain what "4A" and "4B" mean?

The ratings essentially refer to the “retention” of preservative in the wood after the treatment process.
Two different timbers can ‘look the same green’ but contain greatly different amounts of preservative and have vastly different service life in ground.
Because these days there are several different preservatives used, the comparison requires a lot more than just looking at or weighing them to tell.




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[TheGator]

Thanks for all the input folks. I spoke with my uncle who has been in construction and building inspecting his entire career and he eased my mind a bit on the gravel but confirmed my concern on the treatment. I sorted through the Ohio Revised Code and found they reference AWPA U1 section 4 for wood preservative requirements. After reading that it quite clearly states that structural post/piles/timbers in ground contact that are critical to the building structure or difficulty to replace must be UC4B min. Depending on how you interpret their chart it could be inferred that for anything other than Ag use that is considered Residential/Commercial they should be UC4C... regardless, AWPA spec UC4B and the code spec AWPA so these UC4A posts are not to code.
I called the builder and had a length discussion on the matter as well as printed out and highlighted the ORC and AWPA sections for him for reference. Things went over well. He was a little taken back and worried at first but did not go on the defense short of saying he honestly just didn't know. He agreed to finding the correct posts and removing those already put in and I offered to cover the extra expense of the B rated post vs the A rated....The really good news is that through this he ended up finding out his metal supplier still carries CCA .60+ treated 6x6 in stock since they sell to alot of ag builders that request it... and the cost is close enough he's not going to charge me anything extra! So no extra cost, minimum delay, only couple days and we can get this project going again with properly rated materials in the ground. At least if they ever do rot off on me now, I know I tried my best to make sure it got done right initially and its all on me for not dropping the extra coin on a foundation and stick built shop. I think both the builder and I are feeling much better, both getting some peace of mind in the end.

 

[MrSurly]

That is a Win-Win all around.
I’m curious about one point; I think you said that you have engineered drawings. If so, all of this should be spelled out in them.


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[sanddan]

My pole barn shop is now 23 years old and my main issue has been with the gasketed screws on the roof. Every leak I'm now getting can be traced to the gasket failing. I also have clay soil and the posts were set on a bag of concrete and back filled with gravel. They never show any sign of moisture except for the uphill posts that get all of the runoff. No sinking so far (knock on wood here). Knowing what I know now I would go with a screwless design for the roof metal if you plan on being in your current location for a long time.

 

[TheGator]

In regard to the drawings...I do not have a copy in my hands. We went over the exact layout in regard to dimensions, window/door/overhead door size and placement. Everything is pretty basic in that regard. The builder told me he would have his engineer contact go straight from what we laid out and get the stamped plans and then submit them when he was taking care of the permits. In hind site I should get a copy to go over and verify everything and just to have for my records, which I will do this week. The whole reason of biting the bullet and having someone else build this thing to begin with is lack of time. When he offered to take care of the plans and permits after we laid it out I just rolled with it. He's pretty old school and has a great reputation locally. Not much for written contracts. Mostly notes, drawings and handshakes thus far...maybe not everyone's idea of wise, but kinda refreshing to be honest. I'll try to get some pictures up once things get rolling along again.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

My pole barn shop is now 23 years old and my main issue has been with the gasketed screws on the roof. Every leak I'm now getting can be traced to the gasket failing. I also have clay soil and the posts were set on a bag of concrete and back filled with gravel. They never show any sign of moisture except for the uphill posts that get all of the runoff. No sinking so far (knock on wood here). Knowing what I know now I would go with a screwless design for the roof metal if you plan on being in your current location for a long time.

That's good info to know..........thanks for sharing

 

[850xpeps]

I want to know what the gain of a pole barn is when the building is to be insulated and sheeted inside? I would guess the posts will rot eventually right? And frost can heave them as I’ve seen plenty that show that around here. It’s not a common build up here unless someone is doing it because they “think” it’s cheaper or it’s used for a bale shelter.

 

[Bert_]

IAs a "devils' advocate type" question, how can it be justified that the utilities industry sinks poles on the ground, simply by drilling a hole, dropping in the pole, and backfilling with whatever ( meaning EVERYTHING that came out, goes back in ) spoil came out of the hole? I do know that they really compact the backfill, the rule of thumb around here is that ALL the spoil which came out of the hole, goes back in. Considering the volume that the **** of the pole is, that means they really pack the back fill in.

Assuming your talking about power line and similar poles. I've never seen them backfill with dirt in this area, always rock. Those poles are treated with creosote and will last for 50-60 years unlike the CCA posts usually used in construction.

 

[850xpeps]

Assuming your talking about power line and similar poles. I've never seen them backfill with dirt in this area, always rock. Those poles are treated with creosote and will last for 50-60 years unlike the CCA posts usually used in construction.

Powerline companies up here tamp the hole fill with fillings that came out. Usually carry a hydraulic foot tamper.

 

[Radix2]

Assuming your talking about power line and similar poles. I've never seen them backfill with dirt in this area, always rock. Those poles are treated with creosote and will last for 50-60 years unlike the CCA posts usually used in construction.

Here they put the native soil back in and what wont fit they pile at the base of the pole. The weather takes care of the final grade (and it is surprising how fast it happens - just had 5 posts set/replaced)

Do they bring a truck with gravel and a truck to haul spoils for every job there ?

 

[Handyandy23]

I wouldn't use utility poles as a gold standard of how to keep a pole stable in the ground. A lot of them around my area lean or move over time. They're stable enough as far as not falling over, but don't forget there's a big difference between the stability of a single post versus multiple posts all rigidly tied together by the rest of the building.

The utility posts have wires that purposely have slack left in them, so if the poles move or sink slightly you'll never notice. When you have several that are holding up a roof and structure together, if one starts to sink or move it's much more obvious.

I don't think I've ever seen someone build a pole barn garage here (near Toronto, Canada) other than a 'barn' barn for hay storage or something like that, likely because the weather swings and winter frost would have the posts shifting regularly.

 

[Bert_]

Do they bring a truck with gravel and a truck to haul spoils for every job there ?

I haven't really paid attention to how they do it when rebuilding a whole section of line, but when they do spot replacements they just have a ~55 gallon drum with hooks on the sides. They lift and dump it with the jib on one of the trucks. Most of the time the spoils just stay there, in the field or in the ditch, 95% of the poles are out in the country not in town.


As far as movement, if the poles aren't guyed correctly there is a TON of force pulling on it. So that's why you see some that lean/move.

 

[Diesel Dan]

My pole barn shop is now 23 years old and my main issue has been with the gasketed screws on the roof. Every leak I'm now getting can be traced to the gasket failing.

Exactly why I went with standing seam on my current build.

Old feed barn had leaking screws and I spent HOURS on the roof sealing screw heads, 30x100 barn.

OP, glad to hear you found a builder willing to set the poles right. Many still want to punch a 12" hole and drop a cookie down there. Per Ohio code my 30x40 had to have 24" holes with 12" of concrete. I augered all the holes, set grade stakes in the bottom and called a concrete truck to fill the holes. Way to many bags to mix by myself.

Those uplift blocks on the bottom are a must. We had to clean up a large barn in the past that was pulled out of the ground in a wind storm. The remaining 6x6s were snapped off at ground level but came out effortlessly as they had no uplift protection.

 

[TheGator]

Quick update...copy of engineer drawings are headed my way. UC4A posts are out and half the the ones up as of yesterday. Weather has been snowy, icy and bitter cold here but warm up starting and builder should be making some rapid progress. On the plus side the new posts are actually UC4C rated, even higher than required so I'm feeling much better about this build now. Big difference just looking at the stuff. Much different color and better quality wood than came from Lowes...no cracks and noticably more straight. Will get a build thread going with some pics when time permits.

 

[larry4406]

Powerline companies up here tamp the hole fill with fillings that came out. Usually carry a hydraulic foot tamper.

This is what happens here in northern va. Only utility that brings in select file is gas company and they use stone dust.

 

[larry4406]

Good news that your builder is a stand up guy and fixed it.

I’ve no experience with pole barns, I build houses and all are poured foundations and wood framed.

I need/want to build a large shop and like following along on the pole barn threads. Learned some good stuff here!

 

[850xpeps]

Good news that your builder is a stand up guy and fixed it.

I’ve no experience with pole barns, I build houses and all are poured foundations and wood framed.

I need/want to build a large shop and like following along on the pole barn threads. Learned some good stuff here!

Icf when I build my shop



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