Pole Barn Upgrade Advise?

[wfopete]

Ok guys, here the scenario: About 10 years ago I had a 30x50 pole barn built. Nothing fancy, just your basic pole barn w/10ft walls. I use it for storing and working on various toys, but I have run out of room. The floor consist of an 8” concrete pad, which was poured days after the barn was built. Some folks don’t consider pole barns legitimate buildings because of their lack of a foundation but I think a 8” pads helps make up for some of that missing foundation. The bad part is I didn’t use a vapor barrier prior to having the pad poured, so sometimes I will get a damp spot in areas of the floor. The building does not have any gutters and I believe much of the dampness can be attributed to this. I think a viable solution could be achieved by simply adding good gutter/drainage system in conjunction with an addition of a 10-12ft overhang around the building. I am going to upgrade and convert this pole barn into a garage & office space.

See this link for an example:

http://www.barnplans.com/showcase/main.cgi?month=nov07

The upgrade calls for:

Installing fully studded walls around the interior perimeter of the building (for added support) in addition two interior walls that will be built approximately 15ft from each end of the barn. Essentially the floor will be divided into three rooms (15x30, 20x30 and 15x30). The main reason for the studded walls is to support a second floor that will be installed after the existing truss/roof assembly is removed. I-joist will be installed for floor support and I’ll cap it off with a gambrel (barn style) roof. I really like the “Barn” theme as I live out in the country. Pouring a 10-12ft, 4-6”concrete pad around the circumference of the building with a corresponding over hang w/gutters and an appropriate drainage system to channel away runoff water. I hope that will take care of the dampness and allow me to paint the floor. After that, interior work will consist of electrical, plumbing, insulation and finishing off each room for its intended purpose.

Anyway that’s the plan and I’ve already started making the layout and building the studded walls on the lower level. I see a lot of neat garages out there but rarely with a second floor. I think a second floor really adds a good measure of options and coolness that is tough to get with a single level unit.

So that's the plan. Has anyone gone through this type of upgrade and can give me advice on “thinking ahead” for possible issues with this design? Thanks!

 

[krooser]

Big project...You COULD support the 2nd floor trusses with 2x10's/12's bolted to the existing poles which would support the second floor. I assume you're going to span the 30' with engineered lumber?

I'd hire a structural engineer to work this out... you'll probably need one anyway to get your plans approved.

Where are you located? How much rain do you get each year? That would make suggestions much easier... put your location in your profile.

 

[kbs2244]

Big project, but doable.
You are right about keeping the water away.
Don’t forget the ends of the building.
Aprons, or at least good grading, will help a lot.

The 15, 20, and 15 walls are across the lines of the current truss?
If so you are down to very doable spans for the new upstairs floor.
I don't know if you need the outside studded walls downstairs for strength.
They may make insulation and drywall easier though.

I like the DIY gambrel truss idea.
Everybody seems to think truss design is something like rocket design.
I have a 100 year old book published by the U of Ohio that shows farmers how to build barn truss up to 50 wide for hay lofts.
You just lay out your jig on the loft floor and spike together a whole lot of 2x8's.

Keep us up to date.

 

[havi]

I'm always on a tight budget, and therefore I would start with the gutters and see how well that prevents the puddle. Secondly, I would look at the surrounding grade and if necessary, dig and install 4-6" corrugated pipe.

My 24x24 garage is a 2 story barn style with 2x8's forming a grid for the ceiling. Only problem is the builder did it himself prior to me buying the place, and put the long 2x8's over the double doorway and rear wall, instead of the sides (the short 2x8's are about 2 feet long spaced 30" apart between the 12 footers butted together that lie over a center 4x4 beam that is spanned the other 24' by using 3- 8 footers sistered by 2 12' 2x6). That caused the single post between the doors to hold all the weight of the upper story and roof, which in turn caused the floor to break (4" slab no footer!), and the ceiling to sag about 6-9" in the middle. I believe that's what caused the nails to pull a bit, and so nothing sits right anymore. But it's lasted a few years now, and should last until my new garage is done. Moral of this is, do it right, and have the proper people look at it, like krooser said....no engineer would have said mine was acceptable.

 

[wfopete]

Ok, stand by. I think some pictures are in order.

 

[bop_pa]

It would be a total waste of money to build all that without properly fixing the water problem. First you need gutters everywhere and they need to drain the water at least 10ft away from the house. Check your grade and make sure you are sloped away from all walls. Second, you should at least consider a sump pump. If you are getting enough hydro pressure to cause water on top of the concrete then you need a serious solution. It can probably be installed for less that $500 and should take care of that problem. The experts would want to cut a trench around the entire floor and place drainage pipe in there, but I think (bearing you have the proper gravel and drainage under your concrete, that a sump would be fine. I would have this remedied before doing any other work.

 

[wfopete]

Ok, I'm back on track with some pictures.

Here is the pole barn in question:



And your basic pole barn mess. Nothing new, just the accumulation of over a dozen motorcycles & assorted parts, lumber, household goods, bicycles, ect.

Somewhere in there is a 80% restored Pontiac '67 Firedbird convertible that I need to find and get finished.



Your basic pole barn wall:



and header section:



Put down the blue underlayment, vapor barrier thingy.



Add one pressure treated 2x6:



Clamp in place one 2x8 to the header (or whatever you call it).



How does it look so far? This is my prototype wall.

 

[wfopete]

Ok add some studs and viola! a wall suitable for sheet rock, yes? My goal was to strengthen the outside wall to help support the second floor and have more conventional framing for future construction like sheet rock, windows, electricity etc. I was going to use another 5x5 between the main support posts but decided against it as I think it would cause problems down the road with adding windows. I tend to go with a little over kill when it comes to construction but I did stick with 2x4 studs as opposed to 2x6's.

 

[havi]

Consider adding more insulation between the studs. Can't ever have too much, lol. However, I wonder if condensation would build up between the insulation and the metal walls? I'm not an engineer, but my poor 24x24 is 2x4 studs as well. And with yours not holding any snow load, I would guess it'll do fine.

I've seen various offices built inside polebarns doing similar to what you're doing, with a simple stairway going to the top of the "office" where another sitting area, or storage area resides. The office has it's own heater, that can get up to 70 quickly while sitting there waiting for the rest of the shop get to 70....that is if you keep the shop at 45 while away. Arkansas might not have that problem, lol.

 

[Palmetto]

I like the idea. Go for it!

but first you need to have a garage sale, or get a roll-off dumpster and fill it up. If its not making you money, or you havent used it in atleast 1yr, throw it in the dumpster! Some may disagree, but clutter drives me up the wall!

Have fun with it....
Later!

 

[wfopete]

Current plans call for using sprayed cellulose insulation on walls & the roof will have a gambrel design and incorporate and radiant barrier with cellulose applied underneath. The truss design I’ll be using is engineered for a standard 60 psf snow load, 90 mph wind load, seismic category D and exposure C according to the 2007 CBC.

The water problem I'm having is just a occastional dampness in certain areas - not puddling. I think that can be solved with a 10'-12' overhang combined with gutters, trenches filled with gravel draining away from the building. Sounds EZ...to say.