Pole Barn Woes

[aalleexx]

Oh Lawd!!!
I live in East Texas and just got back from talking to a recommended Pole Barn builder this evening from a not to far away city. Turns out my city wants an 18"x18" perimeter footing for even a pole barn even though it is not needed by the builder.. Builder said he has only built ONE in my city and that was for the city itself! City also wants engineered drawings. He has no idea why my city is so hard to do business with. He wouldn't even work up an estimate until I talk to the permitting department to find out if it is still the same. Said it would probably add 3500 to 4000 more because of the crazy requirements. Friends from other cities have pole barns built by them and they swear by the good jobs done. I saw one and asked who did it and that is the reason I went to see him. Going to the building department in the mourning. Pretty discouraging.

 

[bigcreek]

your spelling of morning/mourning was rather fitting I thought. Good luck!

 

[ThumperPilot]

Ugh, sorry to hear that. That's a bit extreme but yes city building requirements can hose you up. Did the city's pole building get that same foundation? I assume so if you're builder didn't say "they didn't require one when i built theirs". You may be able to apply for a waiver on it. Not sure in TX but in the town I last lived in in CO we had to pay $1200 or so to apply for a waiver and if it was denied you did not get your money back. I didn't do that but that's what they told me was the deal.

 

[aalleexx]

I was thinking a pole building was an affordable way to get the shop I want, but not looking too promising.

 

[Docbentley]

What city are you in? I live in Chandler

 

[ctgoodman]

This is a rather crazy requirement. Sounds like they need to take a class on post frame building processes.

 

[aalleexx]

Longview, builder said they make it hard for new businesses to open also. He also said several people thought that they could work around the requirements but not successful.

 

[Brown6041]

I had a similar response from my local plan reviewer about needing a footing but after a second discussion about structural loads being on the posts he approved the plans without the footing.

 

[joe_padavano]

This is a rather crazy requirement. Sounds like they need to take a class on post frame building processes.

^^^THIS! Clearly someone has no clue as to how pole buildings work structurally.

 

[My Old Tools]

Are you doing a slab in the building? 18x18 beam isn't outrageous if you are supporting a slab. If it is a dirt floor pole barn, then it might be overkill. Are you on sand or red clay there? We live about 20 miles west near the Gregg Co. line.

 

[matt_i]

Imo, the posts have to pierce thru the 18" depth foundation, to a depth approaching 48" rendering the concrete just a thickened edge to the slab and providing no support to the actual post. Its not safe to build a post frame on top of a footing like that.

 

[My Old Tools]

Yes, that's what I was pointing out. The perimeter beam is more about the slab support than the posts.

 

[aalleexx]

I've been in touch with the city to confirm setbacks and forms or documents needed. The lady in charge of the inspections that would be able to give me the specifics of what is needed was in a meeting. I left a voice-mail and call back number this AM.Still waiting for that call.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Turns out my city wants an 18"x18" perimeter footing for even a pole barn ...

18" wide and 18" deep ? That is close to 1/3 of a yard of concrete per lineal foot !!

 

[James-W]

What city are you in? I live in Chandler

Just wanted to say "Welcome to the forum."

 

[aalleexx]

Thanks, I get a lot of good information from this site. I feel guilty that I don't have much if anything to contribute but I love learning from all the knowledge folks here.

 

[ctgoodman]

Thanks, I get a lot of good information from this site. I feel guilty that I don't have much if anything to contribute but I love learning from all the knowledge folks here.

Sharing your experience is a great contribution in my book. That alone may be more helpful than answering some "how do I" questions.

 

[ctgoodman]

18" wide and 18" deep ? That is close to 1/3 of a yard of concrete per lineal foot !!

So I wonder what the requirement look like if you just put a gravel floor in it???? If that would keep you from pouring those ridiculous footings, I might would consider building it that way and sneaking the concrete floor later. The description he gives this seems more like a pour for a steel building.

 

[MagKarl]

18" wide and 18" deep ? That is close to 1/3 of a yard of concrete per lineal foot !!

You want to check that math Wizard?

 

[My Old Tools]

1.5x1.5x1=2.25 cu ft.

 

[benjamintmiller]

If you need a small perimeter footing, why not build a conventionally-framed building on a shallow frost-protected footing? It will likely cost less than a pole barn if you want to finish the inside.

 

[moneypit_k5]

I ran into issues up in wahington when I went to build a pole barn. planned to sink 6x6 posts, pour inside, walaa.

City wanted 12x12 #1 posts spaced every 8'. it was completely cost prohibitive, and I tried everything to fight them on it. Eventually I decided I wasnt going to build a train trestle, and went with a steel building set on a monolithic pad. The engineered beams bolt down directly to the pad.

I also had an 18x18 perimeter poured for a 1200 sq ft floor. But that is because my structure bolted directly on top of the footing. Total concrete cost was 6500 3 years ago.

If you are sinking posts into dirt, an 18x18 footing is a reasonable footing around each post. If you are bolting the building down like I have, an 18x18 footing is also reasonable.

Perhaps some more information about the type of building you are putting up would help.

 

[ptgarcia]

18" wide and 18" deep ? That is close to 1/3 of a yard of concrete per lineal foot !!

(1.5x1.5x1)/27=.083

0.083cy per LF

 

[MrSurly]

Interesting discussion to read, given my recent experience. (Hi, y'all, long time lurker here, *finally* getting to the build stage on my own project!)
I signed the contract today with the builder for my upcoming 30x40x14 post frame in the City of Longview, TX which is about 50 miles from Chandler, btw.
I researched this project three years ago, never actually pulled the trigger then; I am pulling it now, at last. I have spent recent weeks talking repeatedly with city officials regarding my overall plan, acquiring a Permit for Electrical Work to upgrade my residential service in preparation for the garage's added electrical (it was an outdated 100A setup) and also getting a Permit for Development (pad placement and dirt work).
The next step is the Building Permit which will be obtained by the contractor. In prep for this I have been talking with and then *arguing with* a certain individual there who did not understand the difference that a pole foundation makes. This person (of authority) knew that stick-built and red iron buildings required 'engineered' slabs and then decided that beyond this, a slab is a slab is a slab and therefore ALL slabs need to be engineered. No amount of explaining or reasoning about the meaning of 'non-structural' concrete would unseat them from their steadfast proclamation.
My approach became two-fold: first, I talked with Inspectors, found that they agree that the slab is structurally transparent in a post frame and second to agree that presenting Engineer-stamped post frame plans with NO slab at all was a perfectly viable building that they would permit.
These inspectors then carried my concern to the Top Gun at the City and he agreed and has (at least verbally) summarily overruled the misinformed Plans Examiner.
My Contractor will now present his drawings (sans concrete slab) to the city for approval next week and we will see. There are now two avenues for approval: we aren't presenting a slab for permitting, only a structurally complete pole frame building design AND, if I decided to add one, the slab doesn't need engineering anyway.
The process isn't concluded but soon we will see who's really the boss, I guess!

 

[buddyboy]

i bet they mean for you to drill 18" holes and pour 6" of concrete in the hole for a footer for the posts

 

[rburke65]

18" wide and 18" deep ? That is close to 1/3 of a yard of concrete per lineal foot !!

That isn't correct. You would be able to get 12' from a yard of concrete, but still sounds excessive.

 

[MrSurly]

I just realized that aalleexx is in my very city! That's why this is so familiar.
Aallexx, PM me! I think I may have the fix as explained above. I've already had the conversations with some key persons up there and have (reputedly) affected a cure for your woes and mine. I know precisely of whom you are speaking up there and have been assured that she was "going to be educated" on exactly this subject. At least you know you're not alone.

The misinformation there has to do with one specific issue: her statement that there needs to be an engineered drawing *specifically for the slab* on a post frame (because this is required for other types of buildings).

Getting this one misunderstanding addressed should clear that hurdle, HOWEVER;

There is a separate requirement for all structures that STILL DOES apply: your builder will need to provide engineered stamped drawings of the *building*. That hasn't gone away. Most of the pole barn outfits (I've talked to ALL the locals) can provide this, some charge extra, some charge a LOT extra, some include them free. Just ask the builder to give you a price for the stamp..
The stamped drawings that they provide will not include the slab.
Message me, I can give you run down on all of this and the contractors etc.
Hopefully in maybe a week or two I will have the permit and can proceed.
There is currently ONE builder of pole frames that has built some in Longview and their drawings are "on file".... but they don't have stamped concrete drawings, either; they have only the stamped drawings for their *buildings*. Shortly, there will be a second contractor who has run their gauntlet.
Ricky
[email protected]

 

[MrSurly]

I have to come back in here to fill in and update: I'm in Longview (the OP's town) and I have run the gauntlet of the city, including *educating* the Plans Examiner about Pole barn/ post frame.
I am currently building my post frame building in Longview fully permitted *with no slab at all* required.
I am going to pour a slab in it, and the city has signed off in writing that I can add the concrete in the building at *any time* with NO permit required for the concrete.

The contractor that I had signed with turned out to be a fraud; I lost some money to the guy but I found him out and bailed. Thank goodness I discovered this before I got burnt much worse than I did.

I paid for engineered drawings for the building of my design, with detail showing placement for the floor slab *if customer elects to add one*, but no slab required per the engineer.

These drawings were the only tangible received from my 'down payment' to the shyster.

After I fired him, I took my drawings back to the city and obtained a permit to build it "my damned self" and that's exactly what I'm doing for a week, now.
I'm not buying a 'kit';
I sourced the lumber locally, the posts from a dock building outfit in Shreveport, trusses from Henderson and sent my drawings to some steel suppliers to get quotes. I've now ordered the steel through Michiana.

 

[ard]

OP ever reach out to you?

 

[MrSurly]

OP ever reach out to you?

We did PM briefly. At that time I was hitting snags so it was an uncertain period waiting for resolution. Since that time, everything has changed and I'm proceeding with mine. I'm hoping he'll look me up; I'd like to help!

 

[Makoto]

I am positively shocked that government is making something more difficult and expensive.

 

[Marctrees]

aalleexx - I realize the post is not about the builder, but the municipality.

Anyway - Would appreciate knowing who you are considering for the build.

We will be doing it this summer, so far I figure either Robbuilt, or 5 Starr.

Would like another option if you don't mind saying.

Thank you, Marc

 

[MrSurly]

aalleexx - I realize the post is not about the builder, but the municipality.

Anyway - Would appreciate knowing who you are considering for the build.

We will be doing it this summer, so far I figure either Robbuilt, or 5 Starr.

Would like another option if you don't mind saying.

Thank you, Marc

I'm going to chime in to say don't deal with Mark Sample aka Marcus Thompson, American Pride Lonestar builders, Texas Barnbuilders (he has used many others).
After the fact, I realized that an important tool to use is Google Earth. There are many many barn builders on Craigslist, etc and weeding out the bad ones is aided by asking their physical address and Googling to see if it's a 'yard' with lumber and equipment, or maybe just a UPS mail drop.

 

[MrSurly]

Marctrees: another well-established firm in the area is Arklatex builders http://www.shopsbuilt.com/

 

[aalleexx]

I've actually decided to go with a Mueller building, 30x40x12. Having LellandBradlee Construction(Here in Longview) put it up for me. Have lots of dirt work needed and retaining wall to make it work in our backyard. Just got a message from Mueller saying the engineered drawings were on the way in the mail. Thanks for all the suggestions.

P.S.
This is a good company if you're not too far away from this area. Father and son(s) business with easy going, friendly people working there. They have a couple of the Mueller buildings as part of their shop and Bradlee put up the bolt-up one(looks good). They do concrete work and I have been very impressed with my dealings with the so far. Looking forward to the shop!

P.S.S.
I don't have any connections with this company other than my dealings with them on the preparations for my shop, just real impressed so far.

 

[MrSurly]

I've actually decided to go with a Mueller building, 30x40x12. Having LellandBradlee Construction(Here in Longview) put it up for me. Have lots of dirt work needed and retaining wall to make it work in our backyard. Just got a message from Mueller saying the engineered drawings were on the way in the mail. Thanks for all the suggestions.

P.S.
This is a good company if you're not too far away from this area. Father and son(s) business with easy going, friendly people working there. They have a couple of the Mueller buildings as part of their shop and Bradlee put up the bolt-up one(looks good). They do concrete work and I have been very impressed with my dealings with the so far. Looking forward to the shop!

P.S.S.
I don't have any connections with this company other than my dealings with them on the preparations for my shop, just real impressed so far.

That's good news. I'm curious about the concrete part of that build as I had been exploring that way, as well. I understand that Mueller supplies the stamped drawings for the building and they provide "reactions" information... but who or what company actually creates the drawings for your concrete for the building ? Is that something that LellandBradlee does, or is that a separate firm?

 

[6768rogues]

I would check the laws with my own eyes. Most codes, rules and regulations have two paths for compliance. One is the prescriptive method where you do what is shown in the code and it is deemed to be acceptable. The other is that an alternative method is engineered and the engineer's stamp demonstrates that it meets the intent of the code. If you have to get engineered drawings anyway, the engineer should be able to design a system that meets the structural requirements of the code and his stamp means he certifies it as compliant. That is why people are licensed to practice engineering.

 

[Marctrees]

We did a 4800ft2 Mueller in Rockport, TX about 13 yr ago.

Very good experience.

I highly recommend for insulation - 3" x around 4 or 5' wide, reinforced white poly faced batts, PERFORATED face - for use in hot humid climates.

We did entire ceiling and all walls.

The Mueller location manager will know about, if not the salesman.

Mr Surly - will check them out, thank you ! Marc