Pole Building Ceiling

[68 Bird]

Hello all. I am new to the site but have been lurking for a while. Lots of great info here but I am still torn on what to do for the ceiling in my shop. I know there are several threads here concerning this topic but I still can't quite get satisfaction.

The specs: 32 x 48 x 10 pole building, 6x6 poles on 4' centers. 2 x 6 girts on 2' centers, 2 x 4 perlins on 2' centers, 5/8 OSB /tar shingle roof, stucco and rock exterior. Trusses are on 4' centers, spaning the 32' dimension, all 2 x 4 construction. Total load rating on the trusses is 40 psf, TC-LL 30 psf, TC-DL 5 psf, BC-DL 5 psf. I have framed in between the trusses on 2' centers with 2x4s.

The building is stout. In fact the buiding inspector advised me to bring my family to this building if we get a tornado. I am flying under the radar for the interior finish.

I have considered steel as an option for the ceiling simply because of the lighter weight but am not real jazzed about it, don't like OSB, would really rather use drywall. I don't want to start the old 1/2" vs 5/8" debate. I have hung many panels of 1/2" on 2' centers with no issues. It's very dry here.

The simple question is will the truss system support the wieght of the 1/2" drywall and R38 fiberglass batt insulation? My calculations say I'll be at roughly 2.5 psf BC-DL. The new lightwieght drywall is right at 1.3 lbs psf.

Thoughts?

 

[kbs2244]

For some reason no one ever things of the 2x4 panels used for suspended ceilings.
All kinds of material and patterns, light, and not very expensive.

 

[68 Bird]

You saying go straight to the framing with an adhesive or light nails?

I didn't think of that because I'm a *****. Worth considering. The first issue that pops into my mind is the look. Did I mention I was an aesthetic *****?

Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[IHI]

Nobody siders the 2x4 panels since:
1. add up ALL the components needed to install them and it gets expensive
2. labor intensive with all the finagaling to install runners
3. zero ability to support insulation, it barely holds it's own weight and will often develope dips/sags in the panels themselves overtime.

Steel:
1. expensive on the front side, BUT you can spec out thinner guage material or call metal building erectors and buy "blems". We did an entire 18x36 bay for a truck repair bay- walls and ceiling, with blems...we hawked every panel before cutting/installing and could not find anything wrong with them; so there is another option in the steel route.
2. easily support attic insulation
3. installs/covers FAST
4. ceiling is done/done when you put the last panel up

Drywall-
1. they have high strength 1/2" but then price is negligable with 5/8" that has been time proven for ceiling strength over decades so IMO 5/8" is the no brainer if going this route since it has history. I've watched many latest greatest ideas/products come and go after failing with long term use in the feild.
2. Cheaper than steel-upfront. The flip side of cheaper up front, ALOT more labor intensive to finish and ends up washing out price wise once you consider everything needed to finish the drywall ceiling start to finish: rent a lift, mud, primer, paint, something to cover the floor where your mudding or the entire floor when it comes paint time so the floor does'nt look horrible when your finished and require even more downtime scrapping and scrubbing if you dont cover floor correctly

 

[68 Bird]

Thanks IHI.
You forgot to mention that if I actually suspend the cieling (which I don't think kbs was iluding to) every time I open the overheads I imagine a good gust of wind would displace a few.

Have all the gear for drywall, no renting there. I'm a very efficient mudder and painter, no wories there. 2 Teenage sons for labor, we're a sheetrock hanging machine.

I'm just worried about the weight.

 

[wedge40]

Who did the building or manfactured the trusses. Call and ask? I'm guessing most trussed are designed to take drywall and insulation. And insulation weight can get pretty substantial. If you can drywall and mud. ( I HATE MUDDING), I'd go with drywall. It's going to look so much better, and reflect the light back down better.


Wedge

 

[IHI]

Thanks IHI.
You forgot to mention that if I actually suspend the cieling (which I don't think kbs was iluding to) every time I open the overheads I imagine a good gust of wind would displace a few.

Have all the gear for drywall, no renting there. I'm a very efficient mudder and painter, no wories there. 2 Teenage sons for labor, we're a sheetrock hanging machine.

I'm just worried about the weight.

Since your profiecent at drywall, go that route...but like I said, the price between the new fangled HS 1/2" drywall is not saving you much long term over 5/8" drywall...the way your furred out will work for either high strength 1/2" or 5/8"....but again, and i cant say this enough...the 5/8" is time proven over 4 decades, the HS 1/2" drywall has been on the market for what, 8 or 9yrs and professionally i never met anybody that used it...why? because it goes back to being time proven. I and many other's in the trades have seen guys take a BIG financial hit trying "new and imporved" products and then a few years down the road getting bit in the azz since manufacturer testing, while good, simply cannot emulate real world useage. That is my take, do the math, you wont save much using the HS 1/2" and your taking a big chance...it might pay off and last forever, but for the cost and labor to do this job...I stick to what is PROVEN, once and done for me/us....doing it that way is what saves you money since your not having to do the job twice.

This is a line i used when trying to sell people on quality:
The only people that can afford to be cheap are rich people....they can afford to do it twice"

think about that for a minute and then make your descion

 

[68 Bird]

I had considered calling the manufacturer, I have the plans right in front of me, but figured they would give me the standard CYA disclaimer. The insulation weight is only about 6 ounces psf.

BTW IHI, I agree with you on the 5/8 topic but again, weight. I have had good luck with 1/2" on 24" centers. Screw the hell out of it. If it sags a little, that's what the flat white paint is for. I don't plan on entertaining the Queen out there.

I hate mudding too but have gotten pretty good at over the years. I don't hate it as much as hiring out yet. No offense to the GCs out there.

 

[Herb67SS]

Every unheated garage I've ever had with drywall ceilings eventually developed tape lifting from the seams from freezing and thawing. Takes few years and then I don't seem to be able to prevent it from reoccurring more frequently. However, there are few similar alternatives with the same finished look.

I'm considering 1/4" plywood (or luan) with latice strips on 24" centers in both directions to cover seams and fasteners. You can even preprime it. Once it's all painted white, the latice strips blend in with the ceiling.

 

[68 Bird]

Thanks Herb. I have the weather with drywall issue covered as well. Dual 75K btu , seperated combustion, forced air heaters. I won't let it get below 60 degrees out there plus I want to work in a T shirt when it's 15 below zero.

Luan is a thought but it burns.

 

[Random Guy]

Could you do drywall with lattice strips instead of taped seams, to alleviate the tape lifting issue?

 

[68 Bird]

Since your profiecent at drywall, go that route...but like I said, the price between the new fangled HS 1/2" drywall is not saving you much long term over 5/8" drywall...the way your furred out will work for either high strength 1/2" or 5/8"....but again, and i cant say this enough...the 5/8" is time proven over 4 decades, the HS 1/2" drywall has been on the market for what, 8 or 9yrs and professionally i never met anybody that used it...why? because it goes back to being time proven. I and many other's in the trades have seen guys take a BIG financial hit trying "new and imporved" products and then a few years down the road getting bit in the azz since manufacturer testing, while good, simply cannot emulate real world useage. That is my take, do the math, you wont save much using the HS 1/2" and your taking a big chance...it might pay off and last forever, but for the cost and labor to do this job...I stick to what is PROVEN, once and done for me/us....doing it that way is what saves you money since your not having to do the job twice.

This is a line i used when trying to sell people on quality:
The only people that can afford to be cheap are rich people....they can afford to do it twice"

think about that for a minute and then make your descion

Thanks IHI, feedback from you pros is always valued and I take it seriously. You're bang on with everything you've said. Why do you think I built a pole building with the poles on 4' centers. Code here was 8'.

I would rather go with 5/8 for the reasons you state. My sons will have to deal with the extra weight. I just want to be sure the trusses can. Your input is apreciated.

 

[haugy]

When I spec'd out the trusses for my shop I told them I wanted to hang drywall. They must have missed that part. I looked up at my trusses and realized they wouldn't be strong enough to hold the weight. I got the engineering drawings on the trusses to confirm it. Good thing I did. Get the true weight of what those things can handle. That is a **** ton of weight to hand drywall up there.

I did steel, the only ***** was cutting the holes for all my light sockets. The trick is go SLOW with the hole saw, go fast and it will eat up the blade and you can't cut ****. SLOW and let it eat. It may take a couple of minutes per hole, but better than buying multiple hole saws, repeated trips to the store for hole saws, and then ****** cutting from them all together.

 

[68 Bird]

Could you do drywall with lattice strips instead of taped seams, to alleviate the tape lifting issue?

Thanks Random, it won't get cold enough in there for the tape to lift per my previous post.

 

[68 Bird]

When I spec'd out the trusses for my shop I told them I wanted to hang drywall. They must have missed that part. I looked up at my trusses and realized they wouldn't be strong enough to hold the weight. I got the engineering drawings on the trusses to confirm it. Good thing I did. Get the true weight of what those things can handle. That is a **** ton of weight to hand drywall up there.

I did steel, the only ***** was cutting the holes for all my light sockets. The trick is go SLOW with the hole saw, go fast and it will eat up the blade and you can't cut ****. SLOW and let it eat. It may take a couple of minutes per hole, but better than buying multiple hole saws, repeated trips to the store for hole saws, and then ****** cutting from them all together.

Funny you say that Haugy, that's pretty much what happened to me but fortunately I have the plans in front of me and know what they'll carry, it;s down to the math.

The best glimer of hope I have at this point is from IHI when he said "the way your furred out will work for either high strength 1/2" or 5/8"...."

Besides, sheetrock won't cut me when I work with it. I'm much better with the rock than steel.

 

[cyamaha2007]

I wanted drywall too. The kit i bought had no way to add the weight of drywall. I talked with the engineer for the trusses he said no way. Also with drywall you will need to add runners every 2 feet on the bottom of the trusses. That will add cost and more weight. The ceiling i used was metal and it spans the 4ft no problems. I was in the attic and slipped i put most of my weight on the tin and it held me fine.

 

[bullnerd]

How about doing the steel ceiling since no one will really care when its done anyway and doing your aesthetic obsession on the walls and other details?

FYI-Classic rib panel is $1.75 a linear foot(36"W) from Metal sales.I'm not affiliated but I am about to buy some ,so price is current,for me anyway.

 

[68 Bird]

How about doing the steel ceiling since no one will really care when its done anyway and doing your aesthetic obsession on the walls and other details?

FYI-Classic rib panel is $1.75 a linear foot(36"W) from Metal sales.I'm not affiliated but I am about to buy some ,so price is current,for me anyway.

Still on the fence with steel but I see they have a distributor not far from here as well. Thanks, I'll look into it. Still not too jazzed about cutting it for light boxes, etc.

 

[lowell66dart]

I am going white steel and will paint the boxes white and screw them to the ceiling. That way I will only have to drill a hole, snap a plastic bushing in and feed the romex through.

 

[68 Bird]

I'm already wired.

 

[bullnerd]

I'm surface mounting everything,no cutting.

 

[68 Bird]

Right but all my boxes are in as well, set for drywall. 26 boxes in all. If I leave them hanging 5/8" below the lumber then put steel up it may look a little sh@tty and I really don't want to reposition them all. Still a thought though. Thanks.

 

[IHI]

Right but all my boxes are in as well, set for drywall. 26 boxes in all. If I leave them hanging 5/8" below the lumber then put steel up it may look a little sh@tty and I really don't want to reposition them all. Still a thought though. Thanks.

Other than having sore shoulders and neck from all the overhead work, hopefully you also have mobile scaffolding to make quick work of this, or just get a few quotes from some smaller local guys to see what it'd take for them to tape/mud it...no texture obviously in the garage, but just remind them you dont need a level 5 finish either-perfectly smooth and time consuming even for the pro's. Tell them you will paper and tape the entire floor, so all they have to do is come in tape/mud/feather sand and out. You may be suprised at how cheaply you could pay a small crew as opposed to the muscle aches you'd have doing it yourself. Depending on ceiling height, they will just extend their bazooka and box mudder and do everything from the ground. A good crew could be in and out finished in 8-10 hours total if they have no papering or clean up to worry about.

I'm sure you've used quickset mud if you've been at this awhile, in a garage application, well whenever we kept drywall finishing in house, I always bedded tape with quick set. I'd just buy the 210 and mix up a bag at a time, that way there was no shrinkage to worry about and it's just like cement when it's set up. If you've never used quick set mud, the kind you mix and comes in 5,20,45,90,210 minute setting times, be dang sure you wash the tools and anything the mud touches before it sets, otherwise you can plan on throwing tool away...and it will set up under water LOL, found that out the hard way when I made the switch on the first job. I just liked it because when doing typical bathroom room remodels, small additions, blending new into old jobs we could tape, 3 coat mud, and texture in 1 day and be done with it....I used to hate the premixed stuff for these small jobs since it takes forever for it to dry and you are stuck, and cant do anything until it is dry...so when we started using quick set exclusivly, we were able to make the mess once, get the tools out once, clean up the drywall mess once, and move onto the next phase the next day.

 

[IHI]

another tid bit, check to see if your local rental store has the porter cable drywall sander. It's like a light wweight orbital sander on a pole hooked to a hepa vac.

almost ZERO dust
scarey fast at knocking everything down to blend in and makes getting a smooth finish alot faster/easier.
I read about it before it even hit the market and jumped to rent it when the place we rented fron got some in stock...after using it I dam near bought one, but since i subbed 90% of our drywall out I just decided renting made more sense over time.

Advice it you go this route, it gets heavy holding it up doing ceilings...get a 1x and make a stick that a helper can help hold the orbital end of the sander and work it back and forth...it will take alot of weight off both guys since your splitting the weight of the unit. (it's not really heavy, but holing a 5lb pole that is 5' long takes a toll one one guy after awhile LOL)

honestly, I dont know if you'd ever not rent it on larger jobs like this since it makes life so much easier and expedites the project quickly...with hardly any dust!!! that is the best part, I honestly never remember seeing any dust floating in the light that is normal through regular sanding methods.

 

[68 Bird]

IHI you have been a gold mine of expertise on this thread. Your info above is from an obvious pro, that is valued, really. My basic background is more founded in the shaping of auto bodies using a touch of mud,(metal finish is king) than pulling a perfect drywall seam. But I do enjoy the art of it all. Pulling straight mud (in whatever application) is a special challenge.

As to the ceiling, I was simply going to pull two good heavy, clean, feathered coats (with one touch up coat for the glaring mistakes) and call it good. Flat paint and the fact that it's a shop, will suit my expectations well enough. I would rather pull a clean knife than sand down a shoddy spread. I hate sanding, anything, period. I want it nice but the Queen (or my wife) will spend little time in the my cave. My main goal in this post was a weight question, which I think I have my answer to....unless somebody else chimes in with good backup that says I'll sag my trusses.

However, I will study, and perhaps solicite your advice on a couple of projects down the road in which the perfect, seemless joints will be required in the house. The only texture I will want on these projects will be from the paint roller. I have not perfected that level of mud mastery yet.

Thanks again.

 

[68 Bird]

BTW IHI, I need more details on the ETs in your signature. Please give more info on what they're about.

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

I priced drywall and steel for my garage. My labor is free, I'm not a drywall guy. I'm very, very happy with the white steel. I was lucky. Menards had 16' pieces on sale. I needed 16'-1". Working to fill that last 1". I'm very happy.

Since then I've found PVC panels in the same shape as the steel siding. Anyone have experience with it? I would think it would be lighter and easier to cut than steel.

Biggest problem was missing the bottom cord of the trusses when I shot the screw in. Filled the holes with large, white plastic headed pop rivets. They have almost disappeared. I have to point them out to visitors. Warning though ... you need the pop rivet tool with the long handles!

 

[68 Bird]

Good input ****. Steel is definately plan B in my case.

Menards...God we need one here. If I had a dime for every Menards reference I've seen on GJ I could have retired a year ago.

One of the glories of missing the bottom cord with drywall is that a touch of mud makes it go away.

I love the signature details on your post. Call it like it is brother. Good or bad, attitude is everything.

 

[samert111]

Personally, I like the look of the white steel. Cost for finished and painted drywall was x 2 and the contractor said it would eventually crack at the seams due to movement in Pole building construction.

Menard's has the light weight Dura Panels you can order to the length you want. Just add an inch or two for overlap, Goes up quick and no taping, mudding, finishing, painting, etc. Plus it's lightweight.

For ceiling light boxes, I suggest you measure as you go and move them to fall within the flat between the ribs and mount them flush with the bottom truss chord. Measure the location as you come to them, hang the steel panel loosely then drill a 1/2" hole where the box is then trim it out with left or right cutting snips, just go slow. I tried the 4" hole saw and ended up throwing it across the room. Snips take only a minute or so to trim out a box nicely.

Installing panels

Installation finished

 

[68 Bird]

Very nice Samert.
Clean, slick and light.... high tech looking. I like it.
And yes maybe I'm over thinking the effort to cut the boxes in.
Much to think about. Where the hell is Menards when you need them?

 

[68 Bird]

Who did the building or manfactured the trusses. Call and ask? I'm guessing most trussed are designed to take drywall and insulation. And insulation weight can get pretty substantial. If you can drywall and mud. ( I HATE MUDDING), I'd go with drywall. It's going to look so much better, and reflect the light back down better.


Wedge

Well, I called the manufacturer and spoke with the engineer who designed my trusses. In short I'm good for R38 and either 1/2" or 5/8". The plans state 0 psi for BC-LL and he said they are actually at least 10-15 psi. If you think about it during construction there is a lot of 200 pound meat walking on the top of the bottom chords. The BC-DL is realisticall at least 15 psi as well. Engineers, always state the absolute worse case scenario.

Thanks for all the input and suggestions. IHI you were spot on.

 

[kbs2244]

I suggested the 2x4 suspended celing panels because he said the truss were on 4 foot centers

The metal strips are light weight.
The panels are various weights.
They could be removed if needed for access.
The offer various amount of insulation.
They are pretty cheap.