Pole building steps...

[Cuda416]

It seems, after looking through all the build threads I could, I've come to the conclusion that site prep is not an exact science. Either that, or it's so complicated that only the initiated few are privy to all the dark secrets that surround the subject and nothing short of a room full of robe clad strangers and a raw chicken offering will get me all the answers. So, I'll just ask some questions and hope no one throws me in the fire pit.

To frame this, the building will be used as an auto hobby shop.

From what I have gathered, the basic steps are thus...

1. Locate the site, taking surrounding slope and water drainage issues into account.

2. Removal of topsoil and all organic material going as deep as necessary. This material is soft and could result in unwanted settling or growth of plants or worse, trees where you don't want them. Save this material for later.

3. Bring in fill material (what kind is best?), bringing the level up to the highest point of the original undisturbed soil. Compacting between 3" layers.

4. Drill post holes and set the bottom skirt board a few inches (3?) off the ground (grade?).

5. Build the rest of the structure using the bottom of the skirt board as the start point.

6. Bring in fill material to build up the base, approximately 6 inches. If the skirt is a 2x10 and 3 inches above grade, 6 inches of fill puts the bottom of the concrete 6.5 inches below the top of the skirt which puts a 4" slab around 2.5 inches from the top of the skirt board.

7. Use the original topsoil to build of the perimeter to help drain water away from the building.

If this is at all right, and I need say 12' of clearance between concrete and ceiling, I need to make sure the ceiling is placed with respect to where i believe the top of the concrete will be, correct? So that would mean that as long as i cut my poles such that the tops are 13 feet from the bottom of the 2x10, I would have roughly 12.4' of clearance when everything is said and done.


So, do I have that close to correct? (or even close?)

As always, any and all responses are appreciated.

 

[Captain Spaulding]

It seems, after looking through all the build threads I could, I've come to the conclusion that site prep is not an exact science. Either that, or it's so complicated that only the initiated few are privy to all the dark secrets that surround the subject and nothing short of a room full of robe clad strangers and a raw chicken offering will get me all the answers. So, I'll just ask some questions and hope no one throws me in the fire pit.

From what I have gathered, the basic steps are thus...

1. Locate the site, taking surrounding slope and water drainage issues into account.

2. Removal of topsoil and all organic material going as deep as necessary. This material is soft and could result in unwanted settling or growth of plants or worse, trees where you don't want them. Save this material for later.

3. Bring in fill material (what kind is best?), bringing the level up to the highest point of the original undisturbed soil. Compacting between 3" layers.

4. Drill post holes and set the bottom skirt board a few inches (3?) off the ground (grade?).

5. Build the rest of the structure using the bottom of the skirt board as the start point.

6. Bring in fill material to build up the base, approximately 6 inches. If the skirt is a 2x10 and 3 inches above grade, 6 inches of fill puts the bottom of the concrete 6.5 inches below the top of the skirt which puts a 4" slab around 2.5 inches from the top of the skirt board.

7. Use the original topsoil to build of the perimeter to help drain water away from the building.

If this is at all right, and I need say 12' of clearance between concrete and ceiling, I need to make sure the ceiling is placed with respect to where i believe the top of the concrete will be, correct? So that would mean that as long as i cut my poles such that the tops are 13 feet from the bottom of the 2x10, I would have roughly 12.4' of clearance when everything is said and done.


So, do I have that close to correct? (or even close?)

As always, any and all responses are appreciated.

I wouldn't fill until the building is finished. Once all the poles are up and plumb, trusses and bracing in place, then you add the skirt boards. Then you put the fill in and the skirt boards hold it in place. With extreme slope, say more than a couple of feet, you may need a retaining wall or stem wall, or you may need to extend your fill in repose outside the skirt boards to reduce the likelihood of fill pushing out.

 

[Cuda416]

I wouldn't fill until the building is finished. Once all the poles are up and plumb, trusses and bracing in place, then you add the skirt boards. Then you put the fill in and the skirt boards hold it in place. With extreme slope, say more than a couple of feet, you may need a retaining wall or stem wall, or you may need to extend your fill in repose outside the skirt boards to reduce the likelihood of fill pushing out.

So if I am understanding this, basically I should add step three to step 6? Seems like a good idea and I like the idea of doing the fill in one step instead of two.

I have read info on starting from the bottom to make sure the end result got the floor where it needed to be in relation to the ceiling. I intend on installing a lift, which will require some unknown to me at this point, minimum height.

Doing it this way, how do I ensure the correct ceiling height?

Thanks for the response.

 

[brycez28]

Depending on your compactor, 3" lifts might be exceeding its effective capacity. And if you have a high powered compactor, they can be rated for up to 6-9" of compacting per lift.

 

[LB-1911]

Batter Boards are your friend.

Site Preparation
The first thing to do after locating the site and determining the placement of the building is to lay out building lines and batter boards.

Install Skirt Board
Find the corner post with the highest grade. Set the building grade here by setting a nail in the corner post. Place a nail in each post around the building maintaining a perfectly level string line or laser.

Source of above and additional information @
http://www.pole-barn.info/squaring-building-lines.html

 

[Cuda416]

Depending on your compactor, 3" lifts might be exceeding its effective capacity. And if you have a high powered compactor, they can be rated for up to 6-9" of compacting per lift.

Ahh, good to know. Also I take it "Lift" is what I am calling a "Layer"? learned something new.

Thanks

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

It depends on what the end goal is. I've seen many pole buildings where they just sank the poles around a semi-flat area and built.
Sure there was a gap under the skirt boards, but 3 walls and a roof were plenty good shelter for some farm equipment. It doesn't take long for the grass to die.

If you are wanting a concrete floor it may be easiest to do the site prep first, then set the poles and some framing. Then pour the floor before closing in the walls.
When my neighbor added a concrete floor to his building we removed some of the wall sheeting to allow easier access.

 

[Cuda416]

It depends on what the end goal is. I've seen many pole buildings where they just sank the poles around a semi-flat area and built.
Sure there was a gap under the skirt boards, but 3 walls and a roof were plenty good shelter for some farm equipment. It doesn't take long for the grass to die.

If you are wanting a concrete floor it may be easiest to do the site prep first, then set the poles and some framing. Then pour the floor before closing in the walls.
When my neighbor added a concrete floor to his building we removed some of the wall sheeting to allow easier access.

Thanks for pointing out the obscurity. I've added the purpose for the building, which is an auto hobby shop so I want to ensure a fair amount of protection from the elements.

 

[stm317]

For mine, once location was selected, the sod was removed and a thin layer of rock was put down to avoid having to work in a mud pit. Then, poles were set to the required depth and the building was framed and skinned with metal. Dirt was brought in to properly grade outside of the building and keep the fill from spilling out. Only then did the fill work begin in a process of layering and compacting until it was brought up to the desired floor height.

Here's a picture that was taken as fill was being added. You can see that the terrain wasn't exactly flat, and this pic only shows the close corners. The back corner that's not visible in this picture has over 3 ft of fill.

https://scontent-ort2-1.**.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/18814746_10102893929823504_1136363322416181122_o.jpg?oh=58bb6120a654a72838abbc28500e6e96&oe=5A2E9B56

 

[Cuda416]

For mine, once location was selected, the sod was removed and a thin layer of rock was put down to avoid having to work in a mud pit. Then, poles were set to the required depth and the building was framed and skinned with metal. Dirt was brought in to properly grade outside of the building and keep the fill from spilling out. Only then did the fill work begin in a process of layering and compacting until it was brought up to the desired floor height.

Here's a picture that was taken as fill was being added. You can see that the terrain wasn't exactly flat, and this pic only shows the close corners. The back corner that's not visible in this picture has over 3 ft of fill.

Ok, I think when I've seen gravel put down right after skimming the sod off, that's what people are doing and not actually putting in "fill". makes much more sense to me. btw, the pic doesn't show for me.

 

[Cuda416]

Dirt was brought in to properly grade outside of the building

Sorry to seem "thick", but this phrase gives me problems because it seems there are many different ideas about it. Can you explain what "properly grade" the outside means?

What I "believe" it means is to slope the ground from the surrounding area, to the bottom of the skirt board?

 

[stm317]

Sorry to seem "thick", but this phrase gives me problems because it seems there are many different ideas about it. Can you explain what "properly grade" the outside means?

What I "believe" it means is to slope the ground from the surrounding area, to the bottom of the skirt board?

I believe your interpretation is correct, so long as the lowest point of your skirt board is a bit higher than the rest of your ground so that the dirt slopes away from the building.

Sorry about the photo. Not sure why you wouldn't be able to see it since I used the same technique that has been successful in the past to upload it.

 

[Cuda416]

I believe your interpretation is correct, so long as the lowest point of your skirt board is a bit higher than the rest of your ground so that the dirt slopes away from the building.

Sorry about the photo. Not sure why you wouldn't be able to see it since I used the same technique that has been successful in the past to upload it.

Thanks, the photo issue might be due to work systems. I'll take a look at home later.

 

[Cuda416]

On the topic of digging the holes, the quotes I got from a couple of local outfits
seemed a bit ridiculous. I asked for 20 holes, 48" deep and 18" across. One said $100 per hole, plus $200 trip fee per day required, another said $3200.

Am I wrong in thinking those are way off base? One person already commented on it being high, so I thought I would pose the question.

Also...

How big of an auger can I expect to reasonably use on a small skid loader/bobcat if I rent one for a day and bust it out?

Finally, if all else fails....

If anyone has recommendations for help on the west side of San Antonio, I'd sure appreciate it.

 

[ctgoodman]

On the topic of digging the holes, the quotes I got from a couple of local outfits

seemed a bit ridiculous. I asked for 20 holes, 48" deep and 18" across. One said $100 per hole, plus $200 trip fee per day required, another said $3200.



Am I wrong in thinking those are way off base? One person already commented on it being high, so I thought I would pose the question.



Also...



How big of an auger can I expect to reasonably use on a small skid loader/bobcat if I rent one for a day and bust it out?



Finally, if all else fails....



If anyone has recommendations for help on the west side of San Antonio, I'd sure appreciate it.

18" would be no problem for a skid steer with the auger attachment. Mine where 24" and they basically rented my Bobcat s220 from me. Its a 75hp machine with high flow auxiliary hydraulics. They didn't have any issues boring mine to a 4ft depth.

 

[Cuda416]

18" would be no problem for a skid steer with the auger attachment. Mine where 24" and they basically rented my Bobcat s220 from me. Its a 75hp machine with high flow auxiliary hydraulics. They didn't have any issues boring mine to a 4ft depth.

Good to hear, thanks!

 

[OneOfEm]

I did mine in a slightly different order as I had to remove some large stumps and then was having continual problems with stupid-heavy rains and didn't want to fight with it anymore. I prepped the site (removed topsoil, backfilled and compacted), then dug post holes (30" diameter with a small rented skid steer - it worked fine), then placed posts, and finally poured a slab. Once the slab was in place, the rain became a non-issue.

I realize that this isn't the "standard" order for a pole building, but it worked for me.

I'm in FL, and here, sand is recommended as a backfill material. Crushed gravel may be better, but availability probably plays into the local preference.

Check the rental rates for a skid steer with an auger. It took me all of an hour to dig 20 holes. It would probably take a bit longer since your soil composition might be more of a challenge than sandy loam.

 

[Cuda416]

I did mine in a slightly different order as I had to remove some large stumps and then was having continual problems with stupid-heavy rains and didn't want to fight with it anymore. I prepped the site (removed topsoil, backfilled and compacted), then dug post holes (30" diameter with a small rented skid steer - it worked fine), then placed posts, and finally poured a slab. Once the slab was in place, the rain became a non-issue.

I realize that this isn't the "standard" order for a pole building, but it worked for me.

I'm in FL, and here, sand is recommended as a backfill material. Crushed gravel may be better, but availability probably plays into the local preference.

Check the rental rates for a skid steer with an auger. It took me all of an hour to dig 20 holes. It would probably take a bit longer since your soil composition might be more of a challenge than sandy loam.

Thanks, looks like I can rent a SS with an 18" auger for about 400/day. Not sure what capacity of SS I'd need but the prices are generally not far off. There is a guy in the neighborhood who is building a home on a lot who seems to leave his equipment around quite often. I might see if I can borrow/rent that one next time he's around. He'll have good info on the soil and difficulty in cutting through it too.

 

[gungatim]

So if I am understanding this, basically I should add step three to step 6? Seems like a good idea and I like the idea of doing the fill in one step instead of two.

I have read info on starting from the bottom to make sure the end result got the floor where it needed to be in relation to the ceiling. I intend on installing a lift, which will require some unknown to me at this point, minimum height.

Doing it this way, how do I ensure the correct ceiling height?

Thanks for the response.

I have seen a lot of builders leave the posts long, once the top is set in relation to the skirt board, they lop the excess off with a chainsaw a few inches or so above the top boards. they get hidden between the trusses, assuming that is your construction method (24" OC trusses and not 6' apart set on poles).

 

[rburke65]

An 18" hole for a 4"x6" post leaves you 6" of play on each side to adjust. Lay out your post location with string, paint the centers, and drill your holes. $3200 is ridiculous.

 

[Cuda416]

An 18" hole for a 4"x6" post leaves you 6" of play on each side to adjust. Lay out your post location with string, paint the centers, and drill your holes. $3200 is ridiculous.

Thanks, I'm glad I am not the only one who thinks so.

This stuff is hard for me to judge though because I've never done it, don't what it costs to own the equipment, etc, etc. But when I can rent the equipment for a few hundred bucks and knock it out in a day (maybe), that's still way more than "I" think it should cost. Even if the job took 8 hours, that's $400/hour. Maybe I'm juts a cheap s.o.b. but for that much I'd like to see someone setting poles and landscaping my lawn while they were at it...

 

[ctgoodman]

I have seen a lot of builders leave the posts long, once the top is set in relation to the skirt board, they lop the excess off with a chainsaw a few inches or so above the top boards. they get hidden between the trusses, assuming that is your construction method (24" OC trusses and not 6' apart set on poles).

I think that was a requirement here. My gable end posts run all the way to the top cord of the trusses. The side wall posts also protrude from the framing and each truss is also connected to them as well.

 

[Cuda416]

I think that was a requirement here. My gable end posts run all the way to the top cord of the trusses. The side wall posts also protrude from the framing and each truss is also connected to them as well.

Seems like a really good way to lock down trusses. I've seen another way which involved a length of 2x6 nailed to the side of the post, protruding up over the headers. The trusses were then nailed to that 2x6. Seems like an old school version of a hurricane strap but I'm no structural engineer.

My plan is to notch the top of the posts and rest the top "header" boards on the ledge created so the weight is supported all the way down the post instead of using nails or bolts to "clamp" them to the side of the posts. It strikes me as much stronger that way. Though I don't think the 2x6 attachment method I mentioned will work in my case then.

I do plan on the posts on the gable ends going clear up to the roof line.