hi guys, new here but it seems like I could learn a bit on here a lot quicker than searching everything myself. I've found out its a lot easier to ask people that have been there done that instead of finding out myself. i'm looking to build a 24x40 shop this summer. it will be 24 on the garage door side and 40 deep. i'm tired of not being able to have room behind and in front of things i'm working on. i'm looking at the pros and cons of a pole building vs a stick built one. I know that a pole building can be made to look just as appealing as a stick built one and not like a large barn so looks do not come into play here really. what i'd like to have is an over hang on one side which will cover a kind of patio/ seating area and probably double as some shelter for a boat out of the sun. I also want to put some sort of a loft in one end. maybe above the overhead door for kids to have a place of their own out of the house. for the rest of the roof i'd like to have scissors rafters to raise the ceiling and run infrared heat tube down the center. my uncle suggested room in attic rafters over the door area and scissors for the rest of it. i'm in southern mn and we put stick built garages on a floating slab with no deep footings. i'm wondering with a pole building if I can finish the inside with sheetrock and run the wiring in the walls like stick built? i'm not a fan of conduit and tin interior walls. would there be any major price difference with what i'm thinking of doing between the two building options? thanks for any input or ideas!
pole building vs. stick built pros & cons
- Thread starter Jarhead01
- Start date
Welcome to the group. I suggest that you peruse the gallery section for ideas. Start with the sticky at the top of that forum. My build below has a loft room that was planned into the building by adding some poles and rafters in place of trusses.
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I should probably add to this that I will only have a contractor do the initial shell of the building. I will be doing the rest of it, shingles, siding, interior wiring and all the finishing work along with the concrete as my brother does concrete for a living. i'd like to have one 10'x16'wide door. also thinking of having walls spray foamed. i'll be putting insulation and pex tubing in the floor for future heat as a boiler system will probably be out of my price range right now. how would a spray foamed pole building compare in efficiency to a spray foamed stick built garage?
tomroblee
Well-known member
The main cost advantage of post frame construction is that it avoids the need for a traditional "deep" foundation. A floating slab also avoid the cost of a traditional "deep" foundation, so there would be little savings in using post frame construction---especially if you would spend the extra money for Perma-Colums or some type of post protector.
A post frame construction building can be finished inside and out with any materials that you would use in traditional construction. The main difference is that you will probably have to add some traditional type framing to the post frame building just to have something which the siding and drywall can be attached. That will further erode any cost advantage of post frame construction.
Spray foam insulation will work with either type of construction. The spray foam will provide more insulation than wood. If you have wood posts spaced 8' apart, you will have more room for insulation than if you have studs spaced 16" apart. If you have both posts and studs (needed for attaching siding and drywall), you will have even less room for foam insulation.
Foam insulation is great, but it is expensive. If you use post frame construction, your walls will be 6" thick---plenty of room for a lot of traditional insulation. Most of your heat loss will be through the ceilings rather than the walls. Do you have a plan to insulate them sufficiently to take advantage of well insulated side walls? (There isn't much point in super insulating the walls unless you can also super insulate the ceiling/roof.)
I don't know how you intend to use you shop, but your combination of ideas seems a tad strange to me. If your door is going to be 10' tall I would assume that your walls would be about 12' tall. Using attic trusses over one end suggests that you will have a fairly steep roof (if you want a reasonable ceiling height in the attic.) Do you really want or need an 18' or 20' high cathedral ceiling over the rest?
One issue that I see with having attic trusses over the garage door is that you will need some way to get to the attic room (loft?) that you will have created. I don't think that you will want to build a permanent staircase in the middle of your garage. I don't know how comfortable you will be using (or having your children use) a tall steep ladder on a concrete floor. You might want to consider just how big of playroom you will create----then decide whether your money might be better spend putting it somewhere else on ground level (assuming that you have room on your lot.)
I'm a big fan of wider garage doors---especially if you will ever be putting wide vehicles in them. I would personally go with an 18' wide door.
I don't know the total cost of the in floor and/or radiant heat systems you are considering. It's hard for me to imagine that putting in a boiler would be more expensive than installing an overhead radiant heat system.
A post frame construction building can be finished inside and out with any materials that you would use in traditional construction. The main difference is that you will probably have to add some traditional type framing to the post frame building just to have something which the siding and drywall can be attached. That will further erode any cost advantage of post frame construction.
Spray foam insulation will work with either type of construction. The spray foam will provide more insulation than wood. If you have wood posts spaced 8' apart, you will have more room for insulation than if you have studs spaced 16" apart. If you have both posts and studs (needed for attaching siding and drywall), you will have even less room for foam insulation.
Foam insulation is great, but it is expensive. If you use post frame construction, your walls will be 6" thick---plenty of room for a lot of traditional insulation. Most of your heat loss will be through the ceilings rather than the walls. Do you have a plan to insulate them sufficiently to take advantage of well insulated side walls? (There isn't much point in super insulating the walls unless you can also super insulate the ceiling/roof.)
I don't know how you intend to use you shop, but your combination of ideas seems a tad strange to me. If your door is going to be 10' tall I would assume that your walls would be about 12' tall. Using attic trusses over one end suggests that you will have a fairly steep roof (if you want a reasonable ceiling height in the attic.) Do you really want or need an 18' or 20' high cathedral ceiling over the rest?
One issue that I see with having attic trusses over the garage door is that you will need some way to get to the attic room (loft?) that you will have created. I don't think that you will want to build a permanent staircase in the middle of your garage. I don't know how comfortable you will be using (or having your children use) a tall steep ladder on a concrete floor. You might want to consider just how big of playroom you will create----then decide whether your money might be better spend putting it somewhere else on ground level (assuming that you have room on your lot.)
I'm a big fan of wider garage doors---especially if you will ever be putting wide vehicles in them. I would personally go with an 18' wide door.
I don't know the total cost of the in floor and/or radiant heat systems you are considering. It's hard for me to imagine that putting in a boiler would be more expensive than installing an overhead radiant heat system.
mellamoesrico
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2011
- Messages
- 54
Tomroblee brings up several valid points in his post above. Although generally, it is cheaper to gain room by going up, rather than going out with a bigger foundation. The trick is that the second floor MUST be properly engineered for safety.
HoosierMark
Well-known member
I am building a new house with a 30 x32 attached garage. There was a $1,600 fee to go from regular trusses to an attic room truss. The room is 12 foot wide and has a 7 foot high ceiling. I figured it was pretty cheap space (360 sf). Since I had steps from the garage to the basement, I just put steps up over this area to the attic room. You might be able to put a 1/2 bath under the steps area which would be handy for the kids and for you.
I personally would go stick built. Make sure you compare the true cost of all the wood you will need to take a pole barn from rough to finished versus stick built. Also since you will have a concrete floor, you could easily have them pour a 6" or 12" inch wall or do a row or two of conc blocks on the perimeter which would make it nice for hosing out and no worry about wood rot or "varmints" coming in.
Don't forget if you are planning for a heated slab to make connections to heat the attic area also.
I personally would go stick built. Make sure you compare the true cost of all the wood you will need to take a pole barn from rough to finished versus stick built. Also since you will have a concrete floor, you could easily have them pour a 6" or 12" inch wall or do a row or two of conc blocks on the perimeter which would make it nice for hosing out and no worry about wood rot or "varmints" coming in.
Don't forget if you are planning for a heated slab to make connections to heat the attic area also.
tomroblee
Well-known member
Building up rather than out generally is the cheapest way to gain total floor space. The problem is that you may lose valuable space on the first floor by dedicating an area for a staircase of sorts. The staircase (or some alternative) will take up the same amount of floor space regardless of whether it gives you access to a 10' long room or 40' long room.
Some people recommend building an outside staircase to avoid losing room inside the shop. This might not be the best option in MN if you don't like climbing snow covered stairs in the winter.
If you would build a traditional flat ceiling, it would be rather easy to blow in as much insulation as you desire on top of the ceiling. If you use attic trusses, the top member of the truss will likely be a 2" x 6". The knee wall portion will likely be a 2" x 4". This will make it more difficult to super insulate the attic portion of the building.
As an alternative to having 12' walls and a steep roof (to accommodate the attic trusses), have you considered using 14' or 16' tall walls with a lower slope roof. You could put in floor joists for a loft/attic at the 11' or 12' level and have a wider room than you could get with attic trusses.
Some people recommend building an outside staircase to avoid losing room inside the shop. This might not be the best option in MN if you don't like climbing snow covered stairs in the winter.
If you would build a traditional flat ceiling, it would be rather easy to blow in as much insulation as you desire on top of the ceiling. If you use attic trusses, the top member of the truss will likely be a 2" x 6". The knee wall portion will likely be a 2" x 4". This will make it more difficult to super insulate the attic portion of the building.
As an alternative to having 12' walls and a steep roof (to accommodate the attic trusses), have you considered using 14' or 16' tall walls with a lower slope roof. You could put in floor joists for a loft/attic at the 11' or 12' level and have a wider room than you could get with attic trusses.
thanks for the input on here guys. I think the 10' door may be scratched as I still wouldn't be able to fit my camper in there anyway and I don't want or need to go that high with my walls. I will do blown in insulation in the ceiling like I did in my attached garage. it was fairly cheap and easy and I filled it with 24". it costs barely anything to heat that one. one of my ideas for stick built was doing 2x6 walls and sprayfoam 2" for cost reasons and then fill the rest with fiberglass. the sprayfoam would be to basically seal it up tight from drafts. I may just forget about the loft idea also as I haven't been able to figure out a good way to get up there without either a fold down attic stairs in the middle of the garage or taking up room for other stairs. maybe the kids can have the 12x20 shed I build a few years ago when this is done. 
I would like the scissors rafters though to run the heat tube up higher and give it broader coverage of the whole shop. I can do a quality infrared heat tube installed for $2500, also with the angled ceiling you get better lighting on projects like a bike on a lift. the boiler systems for the floor heat I've looked at start at around $5000! now I know some people have used simple hot water heaters for houses but I've been told from several contractors and others that is not a good idea as they are not designed for the purposes that in floor heat needs. so as of now the infrared is my most cost effective and efficient form to use but like I said the tubes will be in the floor for the future. I guess i'm left wondering how much extra work and money it would be to make a pole building able to be sheet rocked? do you have to run stud walls in between the poles like a regular stick built shop? or can you just run 2x4's all the way around every couple of feet from the floor up? i'm not real familiar with what you can or can't do with the pole type buildings. I've helped my brother build a couple garages now and I've built my own wood floored12x20 shed which is basically a small garage with 9 foot ceilings and an overhead 8x7 garage door 3 windows and a service door 12" and 24" overhangs and full siding. I guess i'm more or less wondering which one will be more efficient to keep heated in the winter and what the cost savings would be with one or the other. if they end up being close i'll probably just go with stick built. my brother has done both ways now and he said he would do the pole building again. he now has a 30x40 one with 14' walls a 12' door and he had it spray foamed and the inside is fully tinned and he loves it. i'm not much on the interior tin though or the conduit. thanks for pointing things out guys, I appreciate it. any more ideas are welcome!
I would like the scissors rafters though to run the heat tube up higher and give it broader coverage of the whole shop. I can do a quality infrared heat tube installed for $2500, also with the angled ceiling you get better lighting on projects like a bike on a lift. the boiler systems for the floor heat I've looked at start at around $5000! now I know some people have used simple hot water heaters for houses but I've been told from several contractors and others that is not a good idea as they are not designed for the purposes that in floor heat needs. so as of now the infrared is my most cost effective and efficient form to use but like I said the tubes will be in the floor for the future. I guess i'm left wondering how much extra work and money it would be to make a pole building able to be sheet rocked? do you have to run stud walls in between the poles like a regular stick built shop? or can you just run 2x4's all the way around every couple of feet from the floor up? i'm not real familiar with what you can or can't do with the pole type buildings. I've helped my brother build a couple garages now and I've built my own wood floored12x20 shed which is basically a small garage with 9 foot ceilings and an overhead 8x7 garage door 3 windows and a service door 12" and 24" overhangs and full siding. I guess i'm more or less wondering which one will be more efficient to keep heated in the winter and what the cost savings would be with one or the other. if they end up being close i'll probably just go with stick built. my brother has done both ways now and he said he would do the pole building again. he now has a 30x40 one with 14' walls a 12' door and he had it spray foamed and the inside is fully tinned and he loves it. i'm not much on the interior tin though or the conduit. thanks for pointing things out guys, I appreciate it. any more ideas are welcome!tomroblee
Well-known member
In a typical agricultural type post frame building the posts are set about 8' apart. 2x girts are nailed horizontally on the outside of the posts. These provide something to which the vertical metal covering can be attached. You can do the same thing on the inside if you wish to attach vertical metal panels (or sheets of drywall or ???).
When people are intending to finish the inside of the building, they will sometimes install horizontal 2" x 6" boards between the posts rather than to attach girts to the outside of the posts. This will provide something to which both the exterior and interior wall coverings can be attached.
Another alternative is to just fill in the space between the posts with a traditional stud wall.
In an unfinished agricultural type post frame building the trusses may be spaced the same distance as the posts. Purlins are run at a 90 degree angle to the trusses to stabilize the trusses and provide something to which the roof can be attached. With 8' truss spacing it will be very difficult to install a ceiling. If you want a ceiling, the truss spacing should be 4' or less (preferably 2').
If you have a flat ceiling in an attached garage, it's fairly easy to blow in 24" of insulation----except near the wall where the distance between the ceiling and the roof decking may be less than 24". If you are building with an ordinary scissor truss, there may be limited room for insulation between the ceiling and the roof decking. Ideally, you want to leave a few inches of room between the top of the insulation and the roof decking to provide for air flow ventilation. This means that you will probably want to use some kind of raised heel scissor truss that provides more room for insulation.
I would suggest that you do some research on trusses and talk with a truss manufacturer or two in your area. They will be in a better position to help you design your building than someone like me who is only guessing about your needs and desires.
With regard to possible attic or loft; you are right about stair placement being a problem. There have been several recent threads about this very problem. There might be several possible solutions---especially if you are wanting a covered porch along one side of the building.
What I am thinking about is a little hard to describe, and I don't know how to attach a drawing. If you have a 24' wide garage with a 12' wide porch along one side, you could use a 36' wide room-in-attic truss to cover the entire span. The truss could be built so that one wall of the attic room was directly above the outside wall of the garage. A doorway could be built into this wall of the attic room. It would lead to a stairway built under the covered porch. (The same thing could be accomplished with traditional rafter construction.)
When people are intending to finish the inside of the building, they will sometimes install horizontal 2" x 6" boards between the posts rather than to attach girts to the outside of the posts. This will provide something to which both the exterior and interior wall coverings can be attached.
Another alternative is to just fill in the space between the posts with a traditional stud wall.
In an unfinished agricultural type post frame building the trusses may be spaced the same distance as the posts. Purlins are run at a 90 degree angle to the trusses to stabilize the trusses and provide something to which the roof can be attached. With 8' truss spacing it will be very difficult to install a ceiling. If you want a ceiling, the truss spacing should be 4' or less (preferably 2').
If you have a flat ceiling in an attached garage, it's fairly easy to blow in 24" of insulation----except near the wall where the distance between the ceiling and the roof decking may be less than 24". If you are building with an ordinary scissor truss, there may be limited room for insulation between the ceiling and the roof decking. Ideally, you want to leave a few inches of room between the top of the insulation and the roof decking to provide for air flow ventilation. This means that you will probably want to use some kind of raised heel scissor truss that provides more room for insulation.
I would suggest that you do some research on trusses and talk with a truss manufacturer or two in your area. They will be in a better position to help you design your building than someone like me who is only guessing about your needs and desires.
With regard to possible attic or loft; you are right about stair placement being a problem. There have been several recent threads about this very problem. There might be several possible solutions---especially if you are wanting a covered porch along one side of the building.
What I am thinking about is a little hard to describe, and I don't know how to attach a drawing. If you have a 24' wide garage with a 12' wide porch along one side, you could use a 36' wide room-in-attic truss to cover the entire span. The truss could be built so that one wall of the attic room was directly above the outside wall of the garage. A doorway could be built into this wall of the attic room. It would lead to a stairway built under the covered porch. (The same thing could be accomplished with traditional rafter construction.)
tomroblee I understand exactly what you are saying. my brother did a similar build on his last stick built but a section of the "porch" area was actually enclosed as part of the garage so his garage was actually in an L shape. that's also a very interesting idea, not sure why I didn't think of it before since I helped him build it. a person could then put some narrow stairway right against the "back" wall and you wouldn't really loose much space that way. thanks for the input, I think i'll price out some of those trusses now. I imgagine that those type wouldn't be far off in price from scissors trusses and the more I think about it I probably don't really need any more than 9-10' of headroom in there. just want to make sure I have plenty of overhead to use a cherry picker without bashing out lights. thanks again!
wnstwolf
Well-known member
Jarhead this was one of those things you can debate for a long time. What are your plans for final interior use? If any type of wall board will go up you will need to add stringers or some internal framing if you start with pole barn design. After having a pole barn and getting a chance to do it all over again due to a move I did a hybrid of sorts.
Large floating slab on grade 3 sections total is 60x40 (5 years in Upstate NY little to no movement that inpacted structure of the barn)
Stick frame
Metal sheathing
All in under 30k. Tons of own labor and a lot more went into the final fit out of the interior elect, insulation, storage, stuff.
Large floating slab on grade 3 sections total is 60x40 (5 years in Upstate NY little to no movement that inpacted structure of the barn)
Stick frame
Metal sheathing
All in under 30k. Tons of own labor and a lot more went into the final fit out of the interior elect, insulation, storage, stuff.
hippie2cams
Well-known member
my building here is Texas is a 30x40 pole style building on a poured slab, meaning the slab was poured first then 2x6 plate and 4x6 poles anchored to the plate with 2x6 girts on 10 foot high walls. I insulated with r-19 insulation batts. then finished the inside with 5/8 plywood. We don't have the winter time problems that ya'll have up north at least not until this year. but it seems to be working fine, with a 3.5 ton heatpump stays 70 degrees all year.