POR 15 floor epoxy

[Value]

Well, in between this post and that one I backed the car out of the garage. I had the window down and I could acutally hear the armor peel up with the tire. When I got out of the car, I saw a CD sized chunk of the floor missing. I wonder if you must have the clear to avoid this issue and the basic kit isn't enough. I'm really at a loss now.

POR 15 should send you two gallons of clear, activator and chips for FREE.
This is the LEAST they can do considering how they "sold" you an inadequate garage floor system. The FACT is POR 15 paint without CLEAR won't hold up.
We are not certain at this point that POR 15 WITH Clear will hold up to Florida weather. The product needs more testing at the least.

Value

 

[CTPJ_911]

I have put down POR 15 (Basic) on my 800 Sq.Ft. garage floor. The slab is about 9 months old, has no old paint or sealer, and has never been driven on. I swept and vacuumed the floor prior to putting down the first coat using a 1/2 in. nap roller. I waited 24 hrs and put down a second coat using a 1/4 in. nap roller as suggested. As I was not using a clear coat, non-slip or chips, I was not happy with the fact that i could see roller marks and areas where the surface was not as shiny as others. I had plenty of material left over because I purchased a 2 1/2 car and a 1 1/2 car garage kit. I decided to put a third coat on using a 1/2 nap roller, being very careful as to how it was rolled on and going heavy. The appearance was much better though by no means perfect. I let it cure for 6 days before placing anything on it and to date (2 weeks later) have yet to really drive on it, and thus have not had any problems, as the garage is still full of moving boxes. I am hoping that the third heavy coat will be enough to avoid the problems discussed here. If not I may need to talk to Chris about getting some clear. I will report on durability as I do plan on using floor jacks and jack stand on it (although now with pads underneath them as a precaution).

 

[Value]

I have put down POR 15 (Basic) on my 800 Sq.Ft. garage floor. The slab is about 9 months old, has no old paint or sealer, and has never been driven on. I swept and vacuumed the floor prior to putting down the first coat using a 1/2 in. nap roller. I waited 24 hrs and put down a second coat using a 1/4 in. nap roller as suggested. As I was not using a clear coat, non-slip or chips, I was not happy with the fact that i could see roller marks and areas where the surface was not as shiny as others. I had plenty of material left over because I purchased a 2 1/2 car and a 1 1/2 car garage kit. I decided to put a third coat on using a 1/2 nap roller, being very careful as to how it was rolled on and going heavy. The appearance was much better though by no means perfect. I let it cure for 6 days before placing anything on it and to date (2 weeks later) have yet to really drive on it, and thus have not had any problems, as the garage is still full of moving boxes. I am hoping that the third heavy coat will be enough to avoid the problems discussed here. If not I may need to talk to Chris about getting some clear. I will report on durability as I do plan on using floor jacks and jack stand on it (although now with pads underneath them as a precaution).

Good Luck.

I have a small failure (the size of a nickel in my bay) today. Several days of heavy rain on a hot tire was enough to cause this problem.

My wife wants me to re-coat my bay ONE last time with the remaining Clear. Then, allow a few months of real word condition testing (rain) on the floor.

She will use my bay when it rains hard for convenience. We will keep her bay dry except when I mop the floor. So far, no failures in her bay since the repair becuase ONLY hot, dry tires are allowed in that area.

Sadly, POR 15 is not holding up to my real word testing. PineSol is NOT the problem; it is strictly related to wet, hot tires which are allowed to cool on the POR 15 floor.

I will continue to update but POR 15 will most likely fail in my bay during the next 30-45 days despite my best efforts and $$$. Fortunately, I have the BLT mat for my wife's bay. I will see if the mat causes any peeling of the POOR 15 prior to ordering a mat for my bay.

If you plan on WET, hot tires on this product wait for FAST COP to report his data. Until then AVOID this product.

Value

 

[Fast Cop]

Well so far I have only done 1 half of my garage. But that half I have done has had no problems to date. (I did have the bubble issue, but I caused that) I have yet to have any wet days so I cannot report on hot wet tire pick up yet. But with the clear I have had no dry hot tire pick up issues. I have noticed that unlike stright concreat when you slide a jack stand over the clear coat it will leave a mark. I don't know about this with other products like u-coat it, or any of the epoxy coats but I will get some pictures on as soon as I get a chance. Maybe someone with other floor systems will chime in about this issue and also my floor jack leaves a mark. Overall I am satisfied so far with the product, but would like to hear from others that used the epoxy floor systems to see what issues they have had. OK, back to work!!!!

 

[Value]

Today, I recoated my two car garage (my bay) with the remaining Clear Chris sent me. My wife's bay ( two car garage) has the ORIGINAL clear with Grit on it.

We will use my bay for "testing" purposes and ALWAYS park our wet, hot tires in my bay while reserving hers for DRY tires only. Remember, DRY Tires even when RED HOT do not cause a problem on POR 15. Only wet, hot tires which are allowed several hours or more to cool down on the POR 15 product causes failure.

My BLT mat arrived two days ago. If I get more floor failures (which I will report) then the mat will be placed in my wife's bay. If, by some miracle, the POR 15 holds up in my bay for 2-3 months under WET conditions then I will recoat my wife's bay.

Again, until FAST COP reports in with data about how his floor holds up to wet, hot tires I would avoid this product.

 

[PoorOwner]

I don't think it is your hot tires (tire's are not that hot in the rain??).
But water is like general enemy of epoxy, when we spill gasoline, oil, we are quick to clean it up, but not water.

Epoxy repels water, provided it had a perfect surface, but once you have some cuts and nicks in the floor, you want to be careful. The water just sit on top waiting to evaporate, it could possibly seep between layers of the coating, find weak spots in the adheresion and work downwards giving you a bubble.

If you don't believe in me try pouring big puddles of water standing on the floor... it possibly could lift areas that are problematic, I suspect it is what you are seeing. For the same reason pressure washing is not recommended epoxy coating.

Thats why I think system that employ one thickcoat is better... there are less layers and less chance of lifting. When lifting it doesn't mean it could lift showingl the bare concrete, could be just the clear coat, second coat etc.

I think it's ridiculous to have another rubber mat on top though, you already paid for the epoxy, why hide it. Maybe just touchup the floor as needed.

This is just my personal opinion. But life goes on, just use the floor... Throw some paint chips on it so blemishes are not as obvious.

 

[Value]

I don't think it is your hot tires (tire's are not that hot in the rain??).
But water is like general enemy of epoxy, when we spill gasoline, oil, we are quick to clean it up, but not water.

Epoxy repels water, provided it had a perfect surface, but once you have some cuts and nicks in the floor, you want to be careful. The water just sit on top waiting to evaporate, it could possibly seep between layers of the coating, find weak spots in the adheresion and work downwards giving you a bubble.

If you don't believe in me try pouring big puddles of water standing on the floor... it possibly could lift areas that are problematic, I suspect it is what you are seeing. For the same reason pressure washing is not recommended epoxy coating.

Thats why I think system that employ one thickcoat is better... there are less layers and less chance of lifting. When lifting it doesn't mean it could lift showingl the bare concrete, could be just the clear coat, second coat etc.

I think it's ridiculous to have another rubber mat on top though, you already paid for the epoxy, why hide it. Maybe just touchup the floor as needed.

This is just my personal opinion. But life goes on, just use the floor... Throw some paint chips on it so blemishes are not as obvious.

I agree that WATER is a major part of the problem; but, the hot tires do play a role. My wife has been using her bay after a rain. SHe waits 30 minutes for the tires to cool down and then parks in her bay. The result is NO FAILURE so far. Similarly, small amounts of water occur from our A/C systems all the time and again, this does NOT result in failure.

What does cause failure is heat, water and high pressure/adhesion from the tire. THe water combined with the warmness of the rubber tire helps the moisture "penetrate" the layers of POR 15. In my opinion, you need all three factors for floor failure. Over the next 2-3 months I will continue to speculate on the floor problem.

As for contining to use the floor and do repairs monthly that is not my strategy. I prefer a clean looking floor and having sections that are peeled off the garage floor is not why I recoated my floor with POR 15.

 

[Value]

Water alone does NOTcause POR 15 to fail. I have about 8 inches of garage floor which extends past my garage door. This is for both bays. So, this area is exposed to a lot of rain and UV light. After 8 weeks NO failure on this area of POR 15.

It seems that it takes moisture plus pressure with slight heat (warm tires) to cause floor failure. The warm temperature helps the water PENETRATE the POR 15 floor. But, you need HIGH PRESSURE like a car tire combined with the other factors to get underneath the POR 15 paint and cause failure.

I am uncertain if wet tires that are cool will cause floor failure as I have been allowing my tires to cool down (but they are still wet) prior to parking in my wife's bay. As of this date, no floor failure has been observed. My wet tires are cooling down as you read this and I am going to park my vehicle in my wife's bay.

My gut feeling is that POR 15 didn't test the product under the conditions which I believe cause failure. This is why POR 15 is NOT ready for market yet and needs to be recalled. At the very least POR 15 needs to more thorough field test the product (like we are doing) prior to general release.

Every person who purchased this product deserves a refund and the company needs to "retool" the product to withstand wet, hot tires.

Value

 

[5wndwcpe]

I'm sorry to see you guys are having these problems with POR-15, but you just saved me some major aggrevation as I was leaning towards using this product, but certainly won't be now. Thanks for reporting back on your findings.

 

[Fast Cop]

OK, are we talking class action here. Hot tire + water = failure. Same thing happened to me this morning. This realy ticks me off since I just spent another $170 for another gallon+activator to complete my project. I had to buy another gallon because my bubble problem caused me to recoat the clear on the 1st half of the garage.

I think I have been a paitent man, but Chris if you are reading this I think you need to speak to the people at POR-15 about some sort of compensation for all of us who purchased this product in good faith!!!! Like Value said, and I agree, I do not think POR-15 did adquate testing prior to putting this product on the market. It has been one failure after another, and to top it off one mistake (shipping wrong product) after another. I have used your other auto products with great success, but this product is a falure and I for one would like some form of compensation. Please Reply

 

[SteveL]

Wow.......glad I did not jump in when I was going to back in August. Sorry to hear about your problems!

 

[Skinny_Blinky]

Valve and all of the other posters,
Thank you for the information. This is exactly what I have been looking for, in that, real time information.

Valve, those folks should pay you for all of the testing and conclusions that you have done. I would have been much less patient with your issues, a long time ago.

I would have stopped at poor quality control in the shipping department. Por-Dave and Por-Chris appear to be middle-men drop shippers with poor marketing and little if any, proof-in-the-pudding (no personal disrespect toward the Por-Folks intended). This is an honest observation and humble opinion resulting in information from here and feedback of a once-potential customer.

Valve, thanks again for your time and effort here. You must have a great wife too. I feel like I owe you a beer for saving me from this fiasco. Man I am grateful for your and others' feedback here. Tell the Mrs Valve and any little Valves a big thanks for allowing your time here.

I wish everyone here the best success with this product. I feel certain that the product will provide an equal level of satisfaction of epoxy as one knows it. DIY is one thing, but doing it at the mercy of others is another thing.

Thanks 462gilley for starting this thread. I'll keep looking or break down and etch my floor for epoxy prep. I work in the nuclear power industry and those guys place some type of nice floor covering over the concrete flooring in potential spill areas of the power plants. Time to request those old construction specs.

 

[Value]

My bay is dry and will be tested in the upcoming days. I sealed my pavers so it will be Tuesday before cars are parked in my bay. I have a NEW , thick coat of clear over my two car bay. My wife and I will park our wet cars with warm tires in that bay for the next two months. This will be a good FINAL test for the POR 15 product.

I will update you on the results. The floor holds up well to dry, warm tires and avoiding the grit leaves LESS tire marks on the floor. I can live with my bay's limitations but my wife will not. If the product fails again then I will deploy the BLT mat in my wife's bay and repair my floor one more time.

I hope the POR 15 holds up for at least 3 months under severe conditions.
Stay tuned.

Value

 

[CTPJ_911]

Although I have yet to have a failure, I am now becoming concerned that my Basic kit (with three coats) will not stand the test of time on my new garage floor. If a clear coat will significantly increase durability, then I feel the least that POR can do is send me the clear at no cost to apply so that the product will live up to durability expectations. If that is not a solution to the problem, then I feel a refund is in order. Thoughts Chris and others?

 

[Value]

POR 15 is a POOR 15 product. Even Fast Cop had a FAILURE despite excellent prep work and NO GRIT added to the CLear.

We were the guinea pigs for POR 15's inadequate product testing. Chris needs to contact POR 15 corporate and Rec. an IMMEDIATE halt to the sale of this product. In addition, POR 15 needs to issue a FULL Refund for the cost of all materials. The customer is still "eating" all his prep work and painting time.

Despite the low probability of success I will report back about how my garage bay is holding up to wet, hot tires. I expect failure to occur within 15-30 days but it depends on the the amount of rain in my area.

POR 15 Depot has been WARNED to stop selling this product without the proper disclaimer that FAILURE is likely if warm, wet tires are parked on it for several hours.

Value

 

[Fast Cop]

Chris, I realize you are caught in the middle, but I think you owe us some sort of response here. I don't expect it to come out of your pocket, but I think the POR-15 company need to step up to the plate here and give some sort of compensation to us.

At this point I dread to think of the nightmare I have ahead of me sanding, grinding and preping the floor for the next product. I know you can't refund me for my time but a refund on the product is called for in this matter.

I would like, no I think we are due a response to this matter!

 

[bmwpower]

For those with failures:

So the floor was NOT etched?

Do any of you have a true vapor barrier under the slab?

Did any of you do a water vapor test prior to coating the floor?

 

[Value]

For those with failures:

So the floor was NOT etched?

Do any of you have a true vapor barrier under the slab?

Did any of you do a water vapor test prior to coating the floor?

First, the DIRECTIONS did not call for etching/acid washing of the concrete.
On the contrary, POR 15 states that its EVOLUTIONARY product requires NO ACID WASHING or Special surface preparation except removal of oil stains.

That is why POR 15 is RESPONSIBLE for the floor falures. POR 15 did not disclose the product's limitations and thus our floors failed.

 

[bobx]

will chris be back? hmmmmm.....it ***** that you guys had to buy the product only to find out that it didnt work as advertised. i would hope that the company would 'make it right' with you.

 

[PoorOwner]

Why don't you guys post pictures of the lifting?

Does it come lift to show the bare concrete?

I have another brand of epoxy, I lifted, dissolved accidently by chemical, scraped by jacks and heavy steel dollies, and the base coat is still there coating the porous surface underneath, which I etched.

 

[BreBar21]

If you go back a page, I posted a picture of one of the areas where my floor failed. Yes, it did lift to the concrete below.

 

[PoorOwner]

Ok saw the pictures, that's terrible guys.. I hope they give you your money back. Putting a thick clear coat on top of this is not going to solve anything. For some reason it's not adhereing to the concrete.

On the good side, it should be easy to remove, some duct tape will lift it all out (duct tape is usually used as a ultimate test of adheresion).

Go with a one coat system, I think epoxycoat is. I would recommend this over multi coat system with clear coat. The more layers, the more chance of adheresion problem between coats. Sometimes the surface is too smooth for the next coat to adhere to.

 

[bmwpower]

First, the DIRECTIONS did not call for etching/acid washing of the concrete.
On the contrary, POR 15 states that its EVOLUTIONARY product requires NO ACID WASHING or Special surface preparation except removal of oil stains.

That is why POR 15 is RESPONSIBLE for the floor falures. POR 15 did not disclose the product's limitations and thus our floors failed.

Ok, I didn't want to assume things.

 

[Value]

Ok saw the pictures, that's terrible guys.. I hope they give you your money back. Putting a thick clear coat on top of this is not going to solve anything. For some reason it's not adhereing to the concrete.

On the good side, it should be easy to remove, some duct tape will lift it all out (duct tape is usually used as a ultimate test of adheresion).

Go with a one coat system, I think epoxycoat is. I would recommend this over multi coat system with clear coat. The more layers, the more chance of adheresion problem between coats. Sometimes the surface is too smooth for the next coat to adhere to.

First,

POR 15 holds up well to duct tape, hot tires, etc. on a DRY surface. The POR 15 product has ONE Achilles' heel: Wet, warm tires which are allowed to cool on the floor.

The FAILUE occurs when the warm rubber tires helps the water to penetrate the floor. If the tires are cool the Floor holds up.

After Re-coating the floor with a thick clear the floor is more Resilient to wet, warm tires but not 100% so. For example, the floor where my front tires were parked had ZERO failure. The rear tires had a floor failure the size of a nickel. Thus, in my opinion, an extra thick layer without grit/sand helps minimize floor failure.

If POR 15 figures out the issue the CLEAR could be enhanced to eliminate this problem.

My "strategy" is to purchase RACE DECK next year or sooner if POR 15 issues me a refund.

 

[CTPJ_911]

Has anyone tried calling Chris or POR directly? I believe that Chris posted a POR contact name and number in one of the POR-15 related posts on this site.

 

[POR-15 Chris]

Has anyone tried calling Chris or POR directly? I believe that Chris posted a POR contact name and number in one of the POR-15 related posts on this site.

Im Still here and kicking on the phones dilligently trying to find out what is the problem with the Floor Armor. I have been on the phones with the president and with the vice president and ceo's and anyone else big in the company trying to get some solutions and answers to these problems. I will be addressing this problem shortly.

 

[Value]

Im Still here and kicking on the phones dilligently trying to find out what is the problem with the Floor Armor. I have been on the phones with the president and with the vice president and ceo's and anyone else big in the company trying to get some solutions and answers to these problems. I will be addressing this problem shortly.

Every person who applied POR 15 over their concrete floor developed failure after parking their cars with wet, hot tires. This is FACT.

POR 15 needs to issue a refund and stop selling the product while it is 're-tooled.'

 

[462gilley]

I just got off the phone with Chris about returning the 2 floorarmor basic kits that I had bought, when we were trying to get the ten people for the 10% discount.
I was asked if the buckets were opened, and if any of the material was used? I advised I had opened one to check on the contents to make sure it was what I had ordered, since there had been several screwed up orders. It was in one of the buckets. I did not open the other one since it was for a friend.
Chris was checking with some one else on his end to see what they could do. I was told by Chris that they would refund the credit card for the unopened bucket when they got it back. As far as the other one goes I am stuck with it.
I live in Ohio so hopefully the humidity will not be a problem. It will be used on a floor that has a 1972 Buick GS, that only goes out in good weather to the track or on a cruze.
SORRY I started this whole thing.
I have used POR-15 products for years and been happy with the products. Now I guess I will have to find another product line to take there place.

Mike

 

[BreBar21]

I spoke with Chris today as well. He said they are working with corporate to get a refund for those that want one and should have more information soon.

 

[Skinny_Blinky]

SORRY I started this whole thing.
Mike

No need to be. You, Valve, and others here have saved me a headache. I much appreciate your thread and the input from all here.

This is a good healthy consumer advocate thread. Many thanks.

 

[Value]

I spoke with Chris today as well. He said they are working with corporate to get a refund for those that want one and should have more information soon.

Since I will need to purchase RaceDeck any type of REFUND would be helpful.
Chris has my name and address. Alternatively, POR 15 could DEVELOP a solution to the wet, hot tire problem and send us the RETOOLED POR 15 Floor Armor.

Somehow the warm rubber allows water to penetrate the floor armor paint (all layers). But, when the rubber is COLD the penetration does not occur.
Perhaps, a reformulation of the paint so it is more resilient to warm water would solve the problem.

Value

 

[MotorCity57]

Just to go on record, I applied POR-15 to my garage floor last weekend. It looks beautiful right now, but I have yet to park a car on it. I'll do that this weekend. (Keeping my fingers crossed).
I used the Deluxe kit, so I have 2 coats of color (light grey) with color chips on the second coat. I finished up with one coat of clear. I put less than the recommended amount of aggregate in the clear coat because the color chips provide enough surface variation to prevent (I hope) slipping on a wet floor.
Hoping it lasts....
John

 

[BreBar21]

Since I will need to purchase RaceDeck any type of REFUND would be helpful.
Chris has my name and address. Alternatively, POR 15 could DEVELOP a solution to the wet, hot tire problem and send us the RETOOLED POR 15 Floor Armor.

Somehow the warm rubber allows water to penetrate the floor armor paint (all layers). But, when the rubber is COLD the penetration does not occur.
Perhaps, a reformulation of the paint so it is more resilient to warm water would solve the problem.

Value

Like you, I wish there was just a fix. I like the floor and would like to keep it, but the warm, wet tire issue is a big deal for those of us in places like Florida.

My current plan is to tile over it. Since the only problem area is where the cars are, I plan to create a parking pad for the cars. I think it'll look good and will help to minimize additional cost.

 

[POR-15 Chris]

Ok so i had everyone from the main office in NEW JERSEY get in here and read the post and this is what they sent me.



Here are some things to consider when applying Floor Armor:



· Loss of adhesion: in the pics, there were a couple spots where there was an adhesion loss. Since the loss of adhesion occurred in specific spots that clearly indicates an area that either was not properly prepared or was wet. If there was a problem with the batch, then there would be zero adhesion anywhere on the surface plus there are thousands of gallons of that batch out there that would have failed too.



· Regarding surface preparation, the foundation of any coating system is the surface preparation. It is the most important factor in success. The purpose of surface preparation is to remove all contaminants that can interfere with adhesion and to promote a mechanical bond. Perhaps there is a sealer or grease stains not properly treated or dampness? Floor Armor is designed to penetrate into the concrete and when cured have a mechanical bond to the surface. Why is it bonding to some areas and not others? If it is bonding in certain spots, the paint did not decide where to adhere or not. The surface preparation determines that – and not the paint. I know sometimes a customer can get frustrated and when you get personally acquainted with them it is difficult to tell them that the paint does not choose where it adheres or not without sounding like a wise guy. But it’s true though. Keep this in the back of your mind…when a customer says that a product is failing just in a spot but is successful everywhere else (Floor Armor, POR-15, whatever) they are literally telling you the paint has a brain and has consciously made a decision where to adhere the same way you or I would make a conscious decision where to eat dinner.. Sounds silly right? But that is what they are saying but put another way. When paint fails, it fails universally throughout the batch. Keep in mind that flaking or peeling of any paint system is always adhesion loss.



· Moisture: Is the concrete slab on a moisture barrier? If a barrier is not used many times the concrete may appear dry on the surface but is damp and is moist down a bit below the surface thus causing issues with most paint systems. The best way to test for this is to duct tape a 4” x 4” piece of saran wrap to the floor in each corner. Let it sit for, ideally for 72, hours. If there is condensation or a damp odor. The surface is not suited for painting.



pH Levels: On the surface, the pH is highest shortly after the concrete is poured and decreases with time as the surface carbonates. The pH is also related to the moisture content of a slab—concrete with higher moisture levels tends to have a higher surface pH. Cured concrete can go from neutral (pH 7) to highly alkaline (pH 12 or 13). Compare this to using Marine Clean (and no Metal Ready) and then POR-15. You will have adhesion loss (if the surface is not thoroughly rinsed off) because the pH of Marine Clean is high. This is partly why we recommend the use of Metal Ready to bring the pH of the surface down for proper adhesion.



And relating to moisture and pH content is efflorescence which occurs during the initial cure of concrete. It occurs when water is being pushed out of the concrete (this happens very, very slowly) as a result of heat occurring as the poured concrete is curing which brings salts (with high pH levels) to the surface. Efflorescence often looks powdery (white) but is sometimes difficult to spot. This too impacts adhesion because it adversely effects the pH level.



Is the concrete new?. Minimum concrete cure is 30 days at 75° F, however certain conditions can affect the cure rate. The depth of the pour, presence of a moisture barrier, type of concrete, temperature and humidity can all change the cure schedule. If not cured properly, no paint will adhere properly. Concrete also does not cure uniformly, it tends to cure in spots. Again touching on the sealer, some concrete has what’s called a curing membrane which speeds up the cure so the concrete can be walked on during construction but also acts as a sealer. Same issues as a sealer can occur here too.

 

[bmwpower]

That's all fine and dandy and has been discussed numerous times on here and other boards. From what I've read is that the POR-15 directions leave out some of the important points regarding surface preparation. You mention grease stains, etc. Often this type of stain is not going to be reliably removed without mechanical intervention, the likes of which doesn't seem to be in the directions. Again, I've not personally read the directions. Value and others, please post the directions if possible as it seems as though the problem is with the instructions for installation.

 

[scotw]

Wow - I read the reply from POR and there is no way I will use any of their products.

I have a garage floor that I applied epoxy to 18 years ago. The slab was 90 days old and I did the surface prep properly. 18 years later, the epoxy looks perfect except were the tires came into contact with the floor. In those areas it is bare.

According to POR's reasoning, it must have been surface prep since the same paint was used over the entire floor. How could my surface prep cause four straight lines in my floor exactly where the tires go and be perfect everywhere else? Do they think I masked off the areas under the tires and didn't use acid there?

 

[bmwpower]

Wow - I read the reply from POR and there is no way I will use any of their products.

I have a garage floor that I applied epoxy to 18 years ago. The slab was 90 days old and I did the surface prep properly. 18 years later, the epoxy looks perfect except were the tires came into contact with the floor. In those areas it is bare.

According to POR's reasoning, it must have been surface prep since the same paint was used over the entire floor. How could my surface prep cause four straight lines in my floor exactly where the tires go and be perfect everywhere else? Do they think I masked off the areas under the tires and didn't use acid there?

That sounds like wear to me. If you abrade an epoxy floor long enough, especially 18 years of tires in/out, eventually something is going to wear.

 

[mhoffm911]

Chris,

I am not an attorney.

However, I have read enough cases through the years to recognize a "spin" when I see it.

I recommend that you take a step back and read what the USERS here have posted related to A) the Por-15 product marketing literature and B) your latest response.

I believe you will find that A) the users were lead to believe that the Por-15 product would fit their needs in a professional manner and B) that they could apply it with MINIMAL (key here) effort on their part.

There is more than enough information on these forums to readily show a reader how to properly apply ANY type of epoxy flooring (in my opinion). If they followed those directions (as most would because they are based on REAL World experience), they should have a fairly comfortable safety net of success.

Therefore, it is my belief that the Por-15 product has issues that are being too easily dismissed by the manufacturer and not enough weight is being given to the REAL world experiences that have been documented herein.

If I were a manufacturer of a product that was getting totally blasted, I would be taking ever step I could to make it right with the customer. Once blood is in the water, the sharks only get more aggressive.

 

[scotw]

That sounds like wear to me. If you abrade an epoxy floor long enough, especially 18 years of tires in/out, eventually something is going to wear.

I did the floor in November and the tire tracks appeared the following summer. Sorry, my first posting was not clear.

 

[Skinny_Blinky]

Ok so i had everyone from the main office in NEW JERSEY get in here and read the post and this is what they sent me.



Here are some things to consider when applying Floor Armor:



· Loss of adhesion: in the pics, there were a couple spots where there was an adhesion loss. Since the loss of adhesion occurred in specific spots that clearly indicates an area that either was not properly prepared or was wet. If there was a problem with the batch, then there would be zero adhesion anywhere on the surface plus there are thousands of gallons of that batch out there that would have failed too.



· Regarding surface preparation, the foundation of any coating system is the surface preparation. It is the most important factor in success. The purpose of surface preparation is to remove all contaminants that can interfere with adhesion and to promote a mechanical bond. Perhaps there is a sealer or grease stains not properly treated or dampness? Floor Armor is designed to penetrate into the concrete and when cured have a mechanical bond to the surface. Why is it bonding to some areas and not others? If it is bonding in certain spots, the paint did not decide where to adhere or not. The surface preparation determines that – and not the paint. I know sometimes a customer can get frustrated and when you get personally acquainted with them it is difficult to tell them that the paint does not choose where it adheres or not without sounding like a wise guy. But it’s true though. Keep this in the back of your mind…when a customer says that a product is failing just in a spot but is successful everywhere else (Floor Armor, POR-15, whatever) they are literally telling you the paint has a brain and has consciously made a decision where to adhere the same way you or I would make a conscious decision where to eat dinner.. Sounds silly right? But that is what they are saying but put another way. When paint fails, it fails universally throughout the batch. Keep in mind that flaking or peeling of any paint system is always adhesion loss.



· Moisture: Is the concrete slab on a moisture barrier? If a barrier is not used many times the concrete may appear dry on the surface but is damp and is moist down a bit below the surface thus causing issues with most paint systems. The best way to test for this is to duct tape a 4” x 4” piece of saran wrap to the floor in each corner. Let it sit for, ideally for 72, hours. If there is condensation or a damp odor. The surface is not suited for painting.



pH Levels: On the surface, the pH is highest shortly after the concrete is poured and decreases with time as the surface carbonates. The pH is also related to the moisture content of a slab—concrete with higher moisture levels tends to have a higher surface pH. Cured concrete can go from neutral (pH 7) to highly alkaline (pH 12 or 13). Compare this to using Marine Clean (and no Metal Ready) and then POR-15. You will have adhesion loss (if the surface is not thoroughly rinsed off) because the pH of Marine Clean is high. This is partly why we recommend the use of Metal Ready to bring the pH of the surface down for proper adhesion.



And relating to moisture and pH content is efflorescence which occurs during the initial cure of concrete. It occurs when water is being pushed out of the concrete (this happens very, very slowly) as a result of heat occurring as the poured concrete is curing which brings salts (with high pH levels) to the surface. Efflorescence often looks powdery (white) but is sometimes difficult to spot. This too impacts adhesion because it adversely effects the pH level.



Is the concrete new?. Minimum concrete cure is 30 days at 75° F, however certain conditions can affect the cure rate. The depth of the pour, presence of a moisture barrier, type of concrete, temperature and humidity can all change the cure schedule. If not cured properly, no paint will adhere properly. Concrete also does not cure uniformly, it tends to cure in spots. Again touching on the sealer, some concrete has what’s called a curing membrane which speeds up the cure so the concrete can be walked on during construction but also acts as a sealer. Same issues as a sealer can occur here too.

Thanks again Valve and others for saving me this headache and insult of a response to the situation.