portable generator hookup question

[Choirboy]

I'm re-wiring my house, and am adding a subpanel to house my 'emergency use' circuits: well pump, furnace, sump pump, deep freeze, fridge. I will only use one circuit at a time, obviously, and cycle through them as needed. My subpanel has a built-in manual transfer switch to handle the generator.
The generator is a late 90s 5000 watt (62xx peak) Coleman my grandfather bought in the pre-Y2k scare. It was never used and now that Grandpa is moved into an assisted living apartment (not bad for a 97 year old) he has gifted me the generator. My father started it up a month or two to make sure it works (it does). I just got it the other night, and it doesn't appear to have a 4 prong outlet like I expected it to have. It appears to only have two 110 outlets and 2 220v outlets.
What is the proper way to hook this generator up to the transfer switch to get the maximum power to my sub-panel? The well is 230v, the other circuits are 110v.

 

[mike93lx]

can you provide a picture of the plugs? That sounds like a pretty odd setup.

Have you put a load on the generator while running to make sure that it is making power or was the motor just run on its own?

 

[Choirboy]

I'll try to take a picture tonight but it is dark in the shed. I'll have to ask dad if he put a load on it or not; he did that before they loaded it up and took it to my place. I was expecting a lockable 4 prong plug like I've seen on other generators like that, and I've seen diagrams on how to wire those up to my transfer switch. I'll go out tonight and see if I missed it.

 

[mike93lx]

if you can't get a good pic, but can see it well enough, compare it to this chart to identify the plug:

 

[Rookie2]

I always tell people to power their whole panel ! You have a enough emergency power. When your on generator power ,You know your on generator power ! Turn off what your parents told you to turn off when you were a kid ! If you leave a room ,turn off the lights ! Don't turn on an electric oven if you have a well pump cycling.

Use the 4 prong plug.

scratch that....only duplex outlets never mind.

 

[Falcon67]

Most 5K gens should -may-have a 240v socket. Its important to also know how its fused. Some of them are only fused to 25A. Thats not a lot.

 

[Choirboy]

I wanted to leave room in my main panel for a planned future addition, so I figured since I'll eventually have to put in a sub-panel, might as well make it my emergency panel. Hence the transfer switch. Also that allows me to not have to mess with the power mains; I still have the utility-installed box and main breaker. I suppose I could have put a massive transfer switch outside and but this just looked easier and less expensive.
Here are pictures of the generator. The only side I didn't look at was the bottom as I didn't think about it last night, and I can't find a 4 prong plug. I was expecting one because all the other similar sized generators I've seen have them.

 

[CJ7VFR]

Nice free generator! No matter what you end up doing with it, you can at least have some piece of mind that in a power outage, you can run your basic needs items and still stay in your home!

It appears that the generator is a 20 amp unit based on the size of the receptacles and their orientation.

Jim

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Looked for a manual for your unit and found this one:

http://www.powermate.com/pdfs/2007/11/17/manual_pm0525202.02.pdf

But it obviously doesnt match.

Is there a model number somewhere on yours?

There is definitely NOT a 120/240v receptacle on it.

 

[Rookie2]

One safety note, If the fuel line uses a rubber bung (instead of a threaded hose barb) into the fuel tank ,replace it ! Ethanol kills rubber.

 

[wbrian63]

Looked for a manual for your unit and found this one:


There is definitely NOT a 120/240v receptacle on it.

The right-hand duplex outlet (see picture 4 of 5) has the upper right blade in the horizontal position. I believe that indicates a 20a 220v circuit.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The right-hand duplex outlet (see picture 4 of 5) has the upper right blade in the horizontal position. I believe that indicates a 20a 220v circuit.

The OP was wanting a 120v/240v 4-prong outlet, not just a 240v outlet. I stand by what i said.

And 220v is obsolete...

 

[Choirboy]

So, with the outputs on the generator I have, what are my options for wiring this thing to my house? My transfer panel is a Square D QO48M60DSGP 60amp with the two breakers and the safety toggle to prevent them from both being turned to the on position. The plan was the well taking up two of the available spaces, then the 'thinline' tandem breakers for the other four circuits (furance, sump, deep freeze, fridge) in the remaining two spaces.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The max load u can run is 20a.

How many HP is the well pump?

Depending on the size of the well pump, u may be limited to just that load due to in-rush/starting currents which can be 4x-8x FLC...

 

[Choirboy]

I'm at work now but I'm pretty sure the tag on the well relay says it draws 5.9amps, not sure if that includes a start up surge. I wouldn't plan to run all the appliances at once but instead to cycle on them as needed. As long as I have water in my sink/stool (well pump) and NO water in my basement (sump pump) I don't need much else!

So, my missing plug prong is a neutral, but when I wire up the box the neutral will be hooked to my main panel anyway, and is not switched with the 'hot' wires. I should be able to wire this up without the neutral wire to the generator (as I was expecting) and it will be ok, right?

I am planning on running this past my electrician friend before I finish up, but won't get a chance to talk to him for a while so trying to get a feeling for it so I can do some preliminary work.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

U cant use the utility neutral for generator loads.

It doesnt work that way.

If u want to run both 120v and 240v stuff off the generator then u need a 4-wire feed from the generator.

I say your best bet is to find someone to rewire the generator with a 120v/240v outlet.

 

[Choirboy]

Understood. Thanks a bunch!!

 

[theoldwizard1]

I always tell people to power their whole panel !

Good advice, but to do that properly you need an interlock that will ONLY allow either the power from the POCO or from the generator, BUT NOT BOTH !

 

[theoldwizard1]

... I suppose I could have put a massive transfer switch outside ...

Google generator interlock kit

 

[theoldwizard1]

If u want to run both 120v and 240v stuff off the generator then u need a 4-wire feed from the generator.

Wylie, time to get your glasses checked or get a bigger cell phone !

That generator is wired for 240V. It appears to have a 6-20R (right side of the 4th image). Typical house connection is a 14-30P. This does require a "custom" cord, which is not hard to make.

Now the big question is what to do the 4th wire ?
RECTRACTION : Ignore the following 2 paragraphs in purple ! (See later postings.)
If the generator is NOT bonded then the 4th wire should go to the frame. If it IS bonded (and the OP wants to leave it that way) the the 4th wire should be left disconnected.

The OP should be aware, that if the generator IS bonded that some electronic items (modern furnaces, etc) will NOT operate. To remedy this, un-bond the generator and connect the 4th wire to the generator frame.



And if the OP doesn't understand what I said, find someone who does.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Wylie, time to get your glasses checked or get a bigger cell phone !

That generator is wired for 240V. It appears to have a 6-20R (right side of the 4th image). Typical house connection is a 14-30P. This does require a "custom" cord, which is not hard to make.

Now the big question is what to do the 4th wire ?

If the generator is NOT bonded then the 4th wire should go to the frame. If it IS bonded (and the OP wants to leave it that way) the the 4th wire should be left disconnected.

The OP should be aware, that if the generator IS bonded that some electronic items (modern furnaces, etc) will NOT operate. To remedy this, un-bond the generator and connect the 4th wire to the generator frame.



And if the OP doesn't understand what I said, find someone who does.

Where did i say the generator didnt output 240v

U DO NOT want a neutral to ground bond in 2 places. Since the transfer switch doesnt switch the neutral, the generator needs to be unbonded.

If u leave it bonded then u create a shock potential at the generator frame where neutral current could flow on an alternate path.

This means running 4 wires and he needs a 4-prong outlet.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Where did i say the generator didnt output 240v

Here. (Or at least that is how I understood that statement !)

I say your best bet is to find someone to rewire the generator with a 120v/240v outlet.

U DO NOT want a neutral to ground bond in 2 places. Since the transfer switch doesnt switch the neutral, the generator needs to be unbonded.

If u leave it bonded then u create a shock potential at the generator frame where neutral current could flow on an alternate path.

That was what I was trying to describe ...

This means running 4 wires and he needs a 4-prong outlet.

... without install a 4 pin receptacle (14-20R) on the generator. That would be would be BEST (assuming you un-bond the generator),
RETRACTION : but it is not mandatory if you follow my directions.

IT IS MANDATORY !

"The English language can be an imprecise means of communication !"

 

[Choirboy]

And if the OP doesn't understand what I said, find someone who does.

I couldn't agree more! I'm pretty handy but I know more about Isaac Watts than James Watt if you know what I mean...

What type of expert should I contact to help hook this up? Would a regular house electrician be able to do it?

 

[theoldwizard1]

Well, it is a couple of hours later and I have come to the conclusion that WYLIE IS CORRECT !

I say your best bet is to find someone to rewire the generator with a 120v/240v outlet.

This IS MANDATORY ! My statements were made under poor ASSUMPTIONS !

 

[Choirboy]

What type of professionals re-wire generators to add a 4 prong plug? Would a standard house electrician be able to do it correctly, or if not who should I call?

 

[ard]

What type of professionals re-wire generators to add a 4 prong plug? Would a standard house electrician be able to do it correctly, or if not who should I call?

Im going to say a guy that works on generators- fixes them. He might be a house electrician, but Id say the odds of calling a house electrician and finding one comfortable (or 'fully competent') with this would be low.

 

[theoldwizard1]

What type of professionals re-wire generators to add a 4 prong plug? Would a standard house electrician be able to do it correctly, or if not who should I call?

I would say any electrician who is familiar with portable generator hooks ups should be able to do the job. Parts and labor - $100+ (?) (Retail on parts could be >$75)

Actual time, probably less than 30 minutes.

Tell him you want a 14-30R receptacle in a weatherproof box with a weatherproof cover. Ground should go to the frame and neutral and ground should be "un-bonded".



Not meaning to confuse you, but if you plan to ever use the generator for a temporary 120V application, you may need a temporary "neutral-ground bonding plug".

Then again, you may not (few 120V appliances really care about N-G bonding).

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Here. (Or at least that is how I understood that statement !)

That was what I was trying to describe ...

... without install a 4 pin receptacle (14-20R) on the generator. That would be would be BEST (assuming you un-bond the generator),
RETRACTION : but it is not mandatory if you follow my directions.

IT IS MANDATORY !

"The English language can be an imprecise means of communication !"

Well, i got busy and didnt have time to come back and keep arguing over this until now.

Now that Im reading all your comments, I have no idea what the heck youre trying to say in the above comment so I will just ignore it.

Well, it is a couple of hours later and I have come to the conclusion that WYLIE IS CORRECT !

This IS MANDATORY ! My statements were made under poor ASSUMPTIONS !

Yes, unbonding the neutral IS mandatory in this situation because there should only be ONE neutral to ground bond.

What type of professionals re-wire generators to add a 4 prong plug? Would a standard house electrician be able to do it correctly, or if not who should I call?

Look for a generator shop. An electrician whos worked on generators should be able to do it as well. I would put an L14-20 on the generator. That is a locking 120v/240v grounded outlet. All thats needed is some wire and either a hole saw to drill a hole for the outlet or a box to house it in mounted to the generator. And obviously the outlet.

I would say any electrician who is familiar with portable generator hooks ups should be able to do the job. Parts and labor - $100+ (?) (Retail on parts could be >$75)

Actual time, probably less than 30 minutes.

Tell him you want a 14-30Rreceptacle in a weatherproof box with a weatherproof cover. Ground should go to the frame and neutral and ground should be "un-bonded".

Not meaning to confuse you, but if you plan to ever use the generator for a temporary 120V application, you may need a temporary "neutral-ground bonding plug".

Then again, you may not (few 120V appliances really care about N-G bonding).

Using an 14-30 outlet doesnt make sense. He should use a 14-20. That generator can have a max running load of 20a.

A neutral bonding plug is a great idea if he removes the factory bond. It makes things easier if he decides to use it as a portable generator not connected to a house. The bonding plug makes it so the generator doesnt need to be taken apart to re-hookup the neutral bond.

However, bonding neutral has NOTHING to do with what appliance is used. The neutral NEEDS to be bonded when the generator is by itself because this establishes the fault current path so the breakers on the generator can trip when there is a ground fault. Without the bond, any short where a hot wire touches the metal chassis of the generator will not cause the breaker to trip.

Any separately derived system or separate power source needs to have this bonding.

When u hookup a step down 240v / 120v transformer, the neutral on the secondary side needs to be bonded to ground.