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Portable GMAW system

Rockett69

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So I have been searching the interwebs looking for a solution to an issue that has been rather continous. I need to transport my hobart 140 with a shielded gas configuration. I am waiting for my local welding supply to get more gas in for a 80cf tank that will stay on the cart. However, being as this thing is so damn handy to transport, I find myself dragging it all over creation quite frequently. I have found a kit that uses a paintball c02 bottle ( actually made by hobart ) that will bolt up to the back and provide lightweight gas welding for a limited time. Problem is... they don't make them anymore!!!! Anyone have a clue as to what components are needed to make something like this work correctly ?? Fittings, special regulator etc?? This would help my road weary welder tremendously. Any ideas and thoughts are appreciated! ! Thanks!!!

I'll gladly post up a step by step and part numbers for anyone who would want a similar setup once we iron out all the details.

- Kris
 
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dr_clyde

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My LWS has a ****-ton of medical oxygen size cylinders that they re-use for welding gas. I use one for argon when I need to do any offsite TIG welding. They're super light, small, and hold enough gas for about an hour of welding.

I would inquire about those and see if they carry them. My LWS fills medical and food grade gases too, therefore they have them around but some welding suppliers only deal in industrial gases.
 
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Rockett69

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Interesting thought. I like it. What size are the neck size/threads? Same as a standard bottles? you know what adapters are needed? I'll contact the LWS in the morning about the bottles to make sure that's the right track for me locally.

Btw, you have an awesome table build. I love it. It's an absolute monster. Going to have to invest in some of those self centering weldable nuts you used. Been on Mcmaster Carr a lot, and never managed to run across those.
 

PoorOwner

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Can't you just get a small bottle like 20cu ft? It's easy to handle.

And if anything.. Use approved DOT bottles, not lightened version.
 

kkroger

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I generally keep an 80, a 40 and a 20 on hand... but I'm trading my 40s up for 80s. but I will keep a 20 of Argon and a 20 of C25 on hand for travel but I try to prevent that...
 
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Rockett69

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Could I? Absolutely! And have been quite certain that was my only option until stumbling onto this mini bottle stuff. When I'm mobile with my 140, it's typically a fairly quick job, 5 min of arc time maybe?? (Bad judge of time, haven't thought about it much) I would like to keep it light, the welder, my welding bag etc are bulky things, I'd like to not drag anymore around if I can help it.
 
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Rockett69

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I have small oxy/acy bottles that are pretty portable. I'm unsure of their size. Could be 20's. I don't use them much to know. I may could tote it arou d, just hard to get past the ease of bolting a small bottle to the back of my machine and go. Could even keep an extra 20oz in my bag for extended stays or not having a topped off bottle attached.

Kkroger, how is it transporting such bottles for mobile work? The 20 in particular. The 80 I am waiting on for home should suffice I would think for my home welding, I believe they are about 3ft something tall? No way that puppy is leaving my cart haha
 
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Rockett69

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Most of the stuff i'm willing to leave for is patch panel work on restos. Some that are non rollers and my garage is already full to the hilt with frame up cars. I have a few co-workers and their friends that do competition bbq, and constantly require services or additions to their rigs. I've done a small handful of gates and ornamental stuff that I just cannot fit in my garage that they have ample room for, or is done on site due to being concreted in haha
 
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Rockett69

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OH, and btw, when I left for work this morning, I ran and checked my mini oxy/acy bottles. They are 20cf and 10cf. The 20 isn't that bad at all, PoorOwner, you are right on that one. I was figuring those were just 10cf bottles so I might could swing that. I am a poor judge of size like that, thats why I have to use a measuring tape for everything :eyecrazy:

I just try to carry as little weight as possible if I need to go mobile, and if I could get away with a smaller bottle, I am game for it.

Another reason to go for a micro bottle would be cost. I'm already waiting on my 80cf tank to be filled. My reasoning for that one is its one of the biggest cylinders i can get that allow me to load and unload it by myself easily. I didn't see an option for a 122cf (shown in pic) as that would be an ok size for home too. I'd like to get the biggest that I can as to not have to refill it and save money on the big end but my space is limited and don't have a lot of help to load or unload giant bottles.
 

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kkroger

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Mobile with the 20CF is easy, I can put them in the toolbox on the truck and bungee them to the machine when I am on site. plus they don't take up a lot of room on site sometimes I am working in a cramped location.
 

sberry

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yes, if you are doing sheet worh on auto you need the wire. I have a Maxstae for field work, I would like to see how well one of the green China works too, they are super cheap. weigh 13 lbs
 
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Rockett69

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KKroger. what welder do you do your traveling with? 20cf give you an ample amount of time?

Sberry, I envy you, Maxstars are great. I had the honor of learning Tig on a Maxstar 210. Unfortunately its a dc machine, and only ever did stainless and chromemoly work. They are also stupidly compact and portable for such a powerful machine. I've seen a couple of those green machines (Everlast I'm guessing?) I'm betting they would suffice for a couple years. I've had my eye on a Eastwood Tig200, great reviews, silly low price, hard not to roll the dice with one. I may buy one and give a full report, as I don't believe they weigh much
 

jimgood

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Btw, you have an awesome table build. I love it. It's an absolute monster. Going to have to invest in some of those self centering weldable nuts you used. Been on Mcmaster Carr a lot, and never managed to run across those.
He had a screen shot of the CAD page from McMaster. Had the part number right in it.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#weld-nuts/=11zqqh2

But if you ever have to find another source, search for "weld nuts".
 
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Rockett69

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Thats great info!! Thanks!! Ya, I managed to miss that screenshot somewhere, shame on me

I typically tap the work piece or use a nut-sert. These will be extremely handy. Might see if they have a "Sampler pack" with a bunch of sizes, I have a feeling I would burn through these fast haha
 

sberry

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Yes, Everlast. They have a Max clone for 220 or so and its dual V. I tried a cheap little Forney and it isn't the same, not efficient enough and it heats, trips breaker. The Maxstars have really made my portables lonely and if I was doing this today on a maintenance or hobby basis would go with that and a small genset, so much cheaper, cheaper to run.
 

wil

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So I have been searching the interwebs looking for a solution to an issue that has been rather continous. I need to transport my hobart 140 with a shielded gas configuration. I am waiting for my local welding supply to get more gas in for a 80cf tank that will stay on the cart. However, being as this thing is so damn handy to transport, I find myself dragging it all over creation quite frequently. I have found a kit that uses a paintball c02 bottle ( actually made by hobart ) that will bolt up to the back and provide lightweight gas welding for a limited time. Problem is... they don't make them anymore!!!! Anyone have a clue as to what components are needed to make something like this work correctly ?? Fittings, special regulator etc?? This would help my road weary welder tremendously. Any ideas and thoughts are appreciated! ! Thanks!!!

I'll gladly post up a step by step and part numbers for anyone who would want a similar setup once we iron out all the details.

- Kris



Look up "paintball" and "homebrewing" suppliers..they have tanks, adapters, and flow rate controllers, etc


Here's a site that sells the adapter from a paintball tank to your gauge set:
http://www.homebrewing.org/The-Adapter-CO2-regulator-to-Paintball-Tank-Adapter_p_1122.html

Do you think you can get someone to fill these tanks with welding gas,
not just CO2?
 
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MoonRise

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Couple of thoughts, observations, and ramblings on your 'topic', in no particular order.

The Hobart paintball 20 oz CO2 cylinder kit had 20 oz CO2 paintball cylinder, a fixed orifice 'regulator' on a short hose (with fittings on the ends to connect to the CO2 cylinder and the back of the welder), and a couple of 'brackets'.

The reported (fixed, non adjustable) flow rate on the 'regulator' was supposedly about 20-25 cfm flow rate and supposedly gave about 40 minutes of usage time on a 'full' 20 oz CO2 cylinder. But no gauges, so the only way you knew you were getting low on CO2 was when you ran out and your weld instantly looked like bird doo.

CO2 can be used to do short-circuit transfer mode GMAW on steel, just like C25 shielding gas can be, but the operating parameters and 'performance' are a little bit different from when using C25 gas. The pure CO2 arc runs a little bit 'hotter' than C25 (required ionization voltage for pure CO2 for a stable arc is about 10% or 2V higher voltage than when using C25, dependent a bit on the electrode wire diameter in use), and hence can give a little bit more penetration than when using C25. Which is pretty much the opposite of what you usually want when welding thin sheet metal with GMAW. It also usually gives a bit more spatter than C25.

And how much would it cost you to get a cylinder refill on that 20 oz paintball cylinder? Some google-fu says that a paintball 20 oz cylinder refill usually runs about $5 or so.

But the same google-fu says that to refill a 20 POUND CO2 cylinder is about $20-$25 or so. So that's 16x the CO2 for 4x the refill cost of the small 20 oz cylinder. That's 4x less expensive to refill that large 20 lb tank versus the refill cost of the 20 oz cylinder. Just saying. :D

Or you can just go and get a 20 or 40 CF C25 cylinder and use that. Use the welder's existing C25 regulator and hose and weld away. At a gas flow rate of 20 cfh, the 20 CF cylinder would give you one hour of gas flow time, the 40 CF cylinder about two hours of gas flow time. And the gauges on the regulator would let you see and know how much gas you have left and make (slight) adjustments to the gas flow rate if needed/desired. (no, you can't just turn up the gas flow rate on a 'small' MIG machine to 50 cfh trying to get 'enough' shielding gas to weld outside in a breeze, that high of a flow rate on the 'small' machine's torch nozzle will probably just give you extreme gas flow turbulence and make the effective shielding gas flow on the weld even worse.)

As to how to 'make' your own CO2 portable 20 oz paintball cylinder shielding gas kit for use with a welder, you'd need:

- CO2 cylinder
- source of 'welding grade' CO2 to fill and refill the CO2 cylinder
- fittings and hose(s) to connect to the CO2 cylinder and the regulator and the welding machine
- gas flow regulator
- bracket(s) or caddy to hold the gas cylinder

Doable? Sure. But I'd personally just use my existing gauges and regulator and a 20 or 40 CF C25 cylinder for 'portable' situations.

:beer:
 
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Rockett69

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Sberry, A genset is def the way to go. Have a little 1000w Honda that does the work for me when I'm too far away from a plug. It has saved me more than once. One more smallish/heavy thing I have to carry around sometimes hahaha Pity on that Forney. haven't read up on them, but they seem decent (Probably a reason for your purchase of one). I'm hoping not to be bit in the **** with similar issues if i end up with that Eastwood... if I pull the trigger on it. Been eyef*cking a syncrowave for sale locally. But I truly cannot justify the cost right now. I wish I could.

Wil, Great question, I was thinking the same about filling it. I contacted my lws and was told they don't fill them there but was intriqued by the thought and told me to bring him a couple bottles (I have a 20oz steel and a 32oz nitrogen) and he would confirm the ability to fill them (fittings, etc) with C25. he didn't have a price, but I will take them to him none the less.

Which brings me to Moonrise, so much great info there, thanks so much for that!! You seem a bit notorious around here for that haha. Yes, I do not see this being an effecient setup. $$/run time ratio is not great. That is the trade off to being able to run such small components. I'm likely going to build a setup to run and when I'm tired of filling up the little rascals, I'll forfeit and drag the 20 around haha. When I go pick my 80 on Monday, may snag a 20. Wonder if its worth leasing or just buy the dang thang. Only ever leased big oxy/acy bottles. Not sure if the little guys are worth buying or just leasing since my lws is an exchange and don't fill there. .. guess if I bought them, I should probably buy 2 then huh?
 
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kkroger

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I. Have a Miller 211 for mobile and the 20 will give about an hour and a half of continuous weld at 15cfh
 

sberry

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Pity on that Forney. haven't read up on them, but they seem decent (Probably a reason for your purchase of one).
It was an experiment to see if a 100$ stick welder works. The answer is yes and no. It works with 3/32 6011. The Max will do 1/8. The Forney will run a stick about half way down before tripping a 20A, it would probably finish it on a 30A but the machine really heats fast while thew fan in a Max doesn't even come on, all power used goes in to the weld.
1st pic is 1/8 11, went about that far, Second is 3/32 and I don't care for the smaller rod, arclength becomes more critical and I am a little too lazy to want to be tedious. 3rd pic, 3/32 lo hy dc, barely enough power. 4th pic is AC lo hy, a little smoother but still under powered.
 

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Rockett69

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kkroger, thats a decent time. I don't see most projects taking that kind of time while I'm off site, I'm sure I would run one dry at home though. I wanted a 40 for some reason for home, seemed a decent number til I saw the bottle in person, then decided the 80 was good. I didnt see an option for any thing in the 120ish area, or I might do that. I have a low slung welding cart, so I don't want anything too tall, and its just me and the lady, don't want her having to help trying to lug around a giant 250 bottle or something.

Sberry, For a $100ish welder, thats pretty impressive. A lot of that is technique I'm betting (Rumor is a good welder can make any machine look good). What did you change on that last pic? says 18ac, you just switch the V on it?
 

DpSyChO

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I'll throw this out as a quick and easy option:
Lowes used to sell a Kobalt CO2 system that used paintball cylinders that was intended to be used for nail guns:
Review
They may still carry it in stores but I think it went obsolete.
I had a few people I used to wheel with that rigged them as their air source for air lockers and I bought one maybe four years or so ago when when I was planning on going that route but ended up going with lockrights.
I've kept it thinking I may may use it as it's intended usage(nail guns) but have not had the need arise yet. It's still NIB, PM me if interested.
 

kkroger

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Hobart used to have a little CO2 bottle setup.. for one of there portables...
portableco2cylinderkit_10103371.jpg
 
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Rockett69

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Dpyscho, PM sent, Thanks for the ideas!! :beer:

Kkroger, That is the exact system I am trying to replicate. They started making those in '09ish (From what I can tell), and stopped in about '11. Not a long run... but I don't think it was because it didn't work. Handlers are geared toward entry level (for the most part) I had a Milermatic 250 when I got mine... So I got mine for portability. And had the price not been so good, I would have gone to a 190, but I digress. I think because these are seemingly advertised towards welding hobby beginners, they would have no need for such a setup which is why they cut production..... Ooooor it could be a miserable idea and a box of **** and doesn't work at all...:headscrat:headscrat
 

sberry

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What did you change on that last pic? says 18ac, you just switch the V on it?
I used a 7018 AC electrode vs the DC version. It really needs another 5 to 10 amps to work well. Its too fussy for me, I like to turn it up and let the machine do the work.
 
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Rockett69

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I used a 7018 AC electrode vs the DC version. It really needs another 5 to 10 amps to work well. Its too fussy for me, I like to turn it up and let the machine do the work.


I agree!! Whats the amperage? 100ish? Let em burn hot instead of having to push the rod through the work piece. How adjustable is that Forney? just on and off? :rolleyes::rolleyes:
 

sberry

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No, it has a dial. I gave it away. There is just a limit to how cheap you can build something. As I mentioned I bet for 2x or so it could be done. A Max s is probably north of 800$ or so now.
 

zkling

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For the ultimate in portability outside of a gasless wire, C02 is the way to go due to the density of size for welding time, cost and availability to get filled. Going to 75/25 or any argon blended gas for that matter is going to be less space and cost efficient.

Only thing that hobart kit has "special" is a flow restricting orifice to regulate the gas from the bottle to the machine solenoid. In place of a regulator.

If running straight C02 will work for your applications, it wouldn't be difficult at all to clone the hobart system. Miller also had a machine that used an internal gas bottle along the same line. Passport I think :headscrat:
 

kf4zht

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Yeah, the miller passport was a suitcase style that had an internal co2 tank, assuming it was a paintball tank.

Kobalt makes a co2 reg setup for running a nail gun off a paint all tank. Regulates psi but you could probably make it work.

Real advantage of co2 is that it is stored as a liquid, so you get more total gas out of the sesame sized cylinder. Downside is more spatter and a gauge is pretty useless for fill %. It will always read the same unless you are running dry. You have to measure by weight.

You can also get a paintball tank filled a lot more places than a welding tank. Some wally world's even do it

Sent from my D6708 using Tapatalk
 
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Rockett69

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Ya, Dpsycho mentioned the Kobalt kit. I went to lowes today to see what they had so I could look at it, and I'm guessing those are obsolete now. I can find them online in a couple places though. So went to my LWS, and they can't fill the little bottles (20 &32oz) bottles with c25. Worth a shot. The guy did tell me if there's anywhere close that can full bottles onsite, to have them look. I don't have a problem using the c02 if I need to because it can be worth the adjustment to be a little more mobile. I did however get a 40cf of c25 that I will tote while I figure this out. It doesn't seem too bad, but time will tell.
 
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brownbagg

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i got a bottle of co2 from the coke cola machine, its a quarter of my big bottle, but i run 25-75 on mig
 
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Rockett69

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I saw a couple bottles like that when I was at the LWS. I didn't ask about them, but they were sitting on the loading dock. The bottle cheaper? Or did you just happen into one?
 
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Rockett69

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No, it has a dial. I gave it away. There is just a limit to how cheap you can build something. As I mentioned I bet for 2x or so it could be done. A Max s is probably north of 800$ or so now.


I looked at them online, you are right, a hair over $800ish. I didn't find many used ones, must be good enough to not get rid of :thumbup:

Guy at the LWS tried to get me into a Dynasty 210 with the cooler and everything in one expensive package :drool:.... Like trying to get into racing and buying a Top Fuel dragster when you only have the money and knowledge to have camaro or mustang :(
 
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