Portable, NG generator, THD a concern? Inverter?

[joseywales]

I just can't pull the trigger on the 18kW that 3 companies have recommended. > $9,000 installed. I realize I could go with a smaller house unit, but that doesn't drop the price significantly, if I move to a lower unit. Honestly, I'm still confused about that. My gas and meter setup couldn't be more convenient. The units are ~ $4,000 online, but every estimate has the unit listed at over $8,000, plus gas, pipe, battery, electrical, concrete pad, etc. EDIT - reading the estimates more closely, it's pretty clear each company charges ~ $3,500 for the install, but roll it into the price of the generator (then adds on the items I listed above). Not the best way to list prices, IMO. Plus, coding seems to be more strict lately.

16kW would do my entire house and I think local code inspectors are raising the bar on minimums. I've been told twice it has to be 18kW, because, you know, everyone heats their above ground pool during a power outage...

Anyway, I've used a propane Champion unit, which worked great on propane, twice, now won't start. I won't bore you with details, Champion and I have run the gamut of diagnosis, including me replacing the carburetor. Now I have to haul this thing to their service center, or perhaps try running it on gasoline, which I don't want to do.

I would really like a NG unit and have been thinking about inverters, due to laptops, etc. I only need to power up a few fridges/freezers, laptops, and perhaps the heater. I don't need A/C and even my sump pump has marine battery backup.

Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks

 

[nadogail]

Why not bite the bullet and take your Champion to it's service center before throwing in the tile?

 

[SethB]

Running on NG derates the output somewhere around 15-20%, the specs usually list the LP vs. NG output, that's why you upsize for NG.

When available, 22KW Generac kits with everything needed including 200 amp ATS, pad, battery, etc. are around $5400 online delivered via lift gate ( maybe $1K less for 16-18KW depending) . Then you have to add electrician and plumber. That doubles the cost in my AO at least. Then you also need to plan for a NG meter upgrade, unless you have the capacity (gen uses approx 330K BTU) which usually means a 650 CFM meter. You also have to have the ability to get the genset from where it's dropped to the install location, they weigh around 400lb.

The quotes you are getting aren't unreasonable.

 

[sky jumper]

whatever you end up doing, definitely plan to run your sump pump from the generator. do not count on that battery backup system to work when you need it to. there are so many ways those things can fail and you won't know it until it happens (unless you make a hobby out of testing & maintaining it every week, which you won't).

Here's the battery backup system I use, and I still run it from the portable generator during outages. I view the battery backup as stop gap for when I'm not home to fire up the generator.

for context I used to have a 12v battery backup system (12v pump), and a couple different versions of the all-in-one inverter/charger/ATS systems to power the primary pump, and after a decade of doing battle with all the various failure modes I settled on my current method using 2 sets of individual components and homemade auto transfer switches. This has proven to be very reliable, eliminates the single point of failure. and yet I still run it from the generator when I'm home.

 

[joseywales]

Thanks. Agreed, the quotes aren't far off. I believe my meter is good to go. I'm just not sure I need to spend that much, and could get away with powering only certain items, instead of whole house.

Yes, I will deal with the Champion generator. The week they told me to take it in, I tore my calf, unrelated. Lifting a 235 pound generator into a truck is no easy business. I've resolved myself to the fact that I have to rent a motorcycle trailer. Cheapest I believe, at $15, and has a nice ramp. In fact, I just rented one on Christmas Eve, to pick up my first motorcycle. The initial plan was to combine efforts, drop the bike off, then take the generator to a service center, but that didn't work out.

So, I have to rent a trailer, twice, to drop off and pickup this Champion. It fries my oysters to do that on a brand new unit, but it is what it is. The reason for this thread, is that I really prefer to us NG anyway and move on from propane or gasoline. I had a T put on my pool heater feed, so I could connect a hose for a generator, outdoor grill, etc.

 

[u2slow]

On-site contracted work is costly. Especially when its all above-board, warranty, and permits involved. No getting around it.

IMO, its significantly easier and cheaper to NOT try to power the whole house (smaller gen), and connect it via an interlocked breaker kit and power inlet.

NG can be a big ordeal on its own. Many of the gens these days are both LPG and NG capable (or convertible) at which point you can get your setup going on a 30-100# portable tank, and plan for the piped gas hookup later.

 

[joseywales]

u2slow, I'm with you on that. I would love to power the entire house, but it's just not in the budget right now - teen going to college. Also, I don't "need" to do the entire house.

Any issue running a gas flex hose outdoors, to an outdoor portable generator? the hose can be run/secured to the outside of the house wall, then run under the deck to a generator shed. All could be easily disconnected from the pool heater T if necessary. We could then add a transfer switch panel next to the main panel.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Whole house generators with automatic transfer switches, simply put, ARE EXPENSIVE !

Code typically says the unit must be sized to run the whole house OR have a built in "load shedding" to remove part of the load if it is too much for the generator (typically they shed the A/C and/or water heater).

If you are willing to forego the auto-start and auto load-shed, you can get by with a MUCH SMALLER portable unit and a generator interlock. Realistically, most home WITHOUT a well pump or other 240V loads (dryer, stove, water heater, sump pump) and the A/C turned off, can actually run on a 3000W gasoline inverter generator.

As already stated, LP and NG de-rate the output. 5000W multi-fuel inverter generators get pricey !


The bottom line is, portable generators, connected via a generator interlock that allows YOU to manage the load (shedding what needs to be shed, when it it needs to be shed), are much more cost effective !

 

[theoldwizard1]

u2slow, I'm with you on that. I would love to power the entire house,

What functionality a you after ? Auto-start ? A/C ? Other 240V loads ?

Also, I don't "need" to do the entire house.

Then why waste the money !

Any issue running a gas flex hose outdoors, to an outdoor portable generator?

The outdoor BG setup with hose for a BBQ should be adequate for up to a 5000W generator.

... run under the deck to a generator shed

Depending on what your plans for this shed are, you could install gas to the shed and then a whip to the portable generator. Also install the electrical inlet INSIDE the shed and run buried wire to the house.

If the shed is properly ventilated, change over would simply be, turn on the gas to the generator, start the engine, back inside the house turn off unnecessary loads and flip the interlock.

We could then add a transfer switch panel next to the main panel.

A generator interlock is easier/cheaper to install and give you better control over what loads you do and don't want to run

 

[theoldwizard1]

If you are really concerned about THD for "sensitive" electronic equipment, buy a good UPS.

 

[joseywales]

Thanks. This is evolving, so some clarifications:

- the generator I'm looking at is a tri-fuel 8,000. 5,500 rated when running NG
- The shed I have is 73" L x 43 D c 52" H - it's resin and ventilated, so I think it works well. https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/...her-resistant resin, paintable Duotech™ walls

- I wouldn't be mounting anything to the shed, rather running the line through the wall of the shed and connecting to the generator.

- At that point, either wire it to a panel (preferred) or just run a few extension cords.

- Oh, and I'm over the THD. I ran my Champion for 10 hours, without issue. I think laptop power supplies handle that "noise".

 

[theoldwizard1]

- The shed I have is 73" L x 43 D c 52" H - it's resin and ventilated, so I think it works well. https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/...her-resistant resin, paintable Duotech™ walls

That shed is for STORAGE. Running a generator inside of it is going to melt something !

- Oh, and I'm over the THD. I ran my Champion for 10 hours, without issue. I think laptop power supplies handle that "noise".

Bonus on laptops. If the power supply goes, it is easily replaced.

 

[joseywales]

That shed is for STORAGE. Running a generator inside of it is going to melt something !...

Haha...yep. I have a plan though. Where I'm placing the shed, I plan on an overhang that should take 5 minutes to raise or take down, so the shed can be open, exhaust letting out, and the generator kept dry during operation.

 

[joseywales]

Color me interested. Running a generator, inside a resin shed:

 

[yugami]

When sizing a generator there's worksheets for the house loads. I ended buying a 10k Peak 8k running genset and its fairly overkill - it'll run the well pump, sump pump and just about everything else except the dryer.

A 22k genset sounds crazy unless you have 5 kids and a 4,000 sqft house.

A modern house is pretty efficient. before the 10k came in I had a tiny outage and ran my old 3k generator plugged into the house, I happily did everything I wanted to do for several hours before the power came back up (like I said it was tiny). I will admit I was home alone, but the heat was running, the lights where on and I was watching youtube on my TV before I took a shower.

 

[joseywales]

yugami, no argument here. I believe a lot of the larger unit sales have to do with the fact that smaller units simply aren't available. My BIL ordered a 16k, which I thought was overkill for 2 people, 2,000sqf home, but when it came time to install, they only had 22k, so for $500 extra the company offered to install the 22k - $8,400 total.

When I first considered a standby unit, a few years ago, I was thinking 12k would be plenty for a 2,400sqf house. I'm not saying I'll never get a standby unit, but I'll wait until the insanity dies down.

 

[yugami]

16k would be good if they have an electric stove. We had one but I decided in the event of a power outage we had other options for few days.

I went with the 10k portable as a compromise in price/options. It was on sale and about $600 (ended up being free but that's a whole other story about bad customer service).

Battery/electric start so the wife can easily start it. Runs the entire house and can be moved/used for other things. If my parents or SIL lose power but I don't they can borrow it.

Went with a manual breaker/back feed setup (as recommended by out electrician friend who did the install). So its not a seamless experience but we don't lose power often enough that its a huge deal. Best protection against power outages seems to be spending the money setting up a generator, only had the 1 minor one so far.

Other side benefit is that it's powerful enough to run a decent sized welder. I have a bit of property so if my trailer breaks in the back I can trundle everything out to fix it.

Bought a tent cover thing for it so its easy to leave running in the rain safely outside.

 

[slow]

When sizing a generator there's worksheets for the house loads. I ended buying a 10k Peak 8k running genset and its fairly overkill - it'll run the well pump, sump pump and just about everything else except the dryer.

A 22k genset sounds crazy unless you have 5 kids and a 4,000 sqft house.

A modern house is pretty efficient. before the 10k came in I had a tiny outage and ran my old 3k generator plugged into the house, I happily did everything I wanted to do for several hours before the power came back up (like I said it was tiny). I will admit I was home alone, but the heat was running, the lights where on and I was watching youtube on my TV before I took a shower.

all depends on load, That's about the size I would need here in FL, with a 5 ton AC for the inrush starting current. Running watts would be far less than the 22k, Granted each persons needs are different. My thoughts for a backup generator are hurricanes that happen in the hot part of the year, family who live up north, just need enough to run the furnace blower motors as the heat comes from propane, or natural gas depending where they live in a winter snow storm.

 

[Showkey]

This applies to all back up power choices:

How often does the power go out ?
When the power does go out how long does it last ?
Is there a medical or other critical need for power ?

About 15 -18 years back there was a huge storm in northern IL and southern WI. Power was out for 2-4 days. Shortly after the Neighbor at the time installed a $12k whole house genny. He stated then that should guarantee the power will never go out again........he was right.
That particular storm we all got by on portable 2000 watt units and refrig, freezers and sump pumps were satisfied.

My current home has an interlock circuit box to power critical circuits........in 8 years it’s never been used. Power has never been out for more than 3-4 hours. Once I started to get the portable genny out after several hours.......power came back on.

 

[joseywales]

aside from brown outs and brief outages, we had 3 outages last year. 5 hours, 7 hours, then 5.5 hours.

The longest outage was a few years ago, 4 days. one tree = 4 days. It took out the local elementary school as well. PECO wouldn't repair the line, until the tree was removed and no one would remove the tree, until PECO confirmed the lines were dead. The township was useless. A school bus full of kids drove right up to it and had to make a U turn. That tree was down for 2 days and no one communicated that to the school transportation? The school superintendent ($175,000 salary) was standing in the lobby of the elementary school, dumbfounded that there was no power. Power had been out for the entire weekend!! It's ridiculous. One of the largest school districts in the state.

Although we're not rural by any means, our grid is only about 1,000 people, so it's low priority during mass outages.

Unless homeowners begin maintaining their trees, and/or PECO upgrades its infrastructure, the outages will only get worse.

No medical needs for power.
Food preservation
I've always worked from home, now everyone is home.
Sump pump (marine battery backup system, but we get a lot of water, so I feel like it's still a gamble).

 

[AP514]

Why not bite the bullet and take your Champion to it's service center before throwing in the tile?

+1 on this Rout..
Why Spend Thousands on NEW when your old Genset might just need a part and a few hundered into trouble shooting problem.

to bad I do not live in your area I would pay $50 to hall your old one away

 

[SweetD]

16k would be good if they have an electric stove. We had one but I decided in the event of a power outage we had other options for few days.

I went with the 10k portable as a compromise in price/options. It was on sale and about $600 (ended up being free but that's a whole other story about bad customer service).

Battery/electric start so the wife can easily start it. Runs the entire house and can be moved/used for other things. If my parents or SIL lose power but I don't they can borrow it.

Went with a manual breaker/back feed setup (as recommended by out electrician friend who did the install). So its not a seamless experience but we don't lose power often enough that its a huge deal. Best protection against power outages seems to be spending the money setting up a generator, only had the 1 minor one so far.

Other side benefit is that it's powerful enough to run a decent sized welder. I have a bit of property so if my trailer breaks in the back I can trundle everything out to fix it.

Bought a tent cover thing for it so its easy to leave running in the rain safely outside.

Exactly what we did this year, right down to the rain cover. Good insurance for the power to never go out again. And I didn't even think of the welder option, thanks for the idea!

 

[joseywales]

+1 on this Rout..
Why Spend Thousands on NEW when your old Genset might just need a part and a few hundered into trouble shooting problem.

to bad I do not live in your area I would pay $50 to hall your old one away

I'll get the Champion serviced, but it's gas or propane only. I'll either store it as backup or sell it, once I'm convinced it working properly. But I'm tired of playing the propane game. I believe the 20lb tank (15.5 pounds really), are simply too small to sustain these generators.

Either way, my yard looks like a propane tank farm, on top of which, 50% of the tanks I have to return full, because the valves are seized. Blue Rhino seem to the be the worst. A dealer, also customer of ours, finally gave Blue Rhino the boot - too many complaints/returns. When I tell you that can't be turned, one guy put Channel locks on and it was a no-go. Maybe it's valve, maybe they're not stored well. Don't care. I'm done.

I have NG, so if I'm putting in an interlock for my panel, fabricating a shed setup, etc., I'm going NG. And before anyone suggests it, the wife handles commercial liability claims, formerly environmental claims, there is no way a 100 pound, or larger, propane tank is entering this property. Not gonna happen.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Blue Rhino seem to the be the worst.

Blue Rhino is one of the biggest SCAMS in the world these days. They fill their tanks 3/4 full and then lie straight to your face saying, "we have to leave room for expansion !"

The designed, tested and certified to hold 20lb of propane. There is a safety valve built in if the tank ever does over pressure. 15lbs of propane is not "full".