possible asbestos linoleum

[that-guy]

my house was built in 1953 and I have been living in it for over a year now. I leave my dog, 7 month old Black Lab, confined to the kitchen while I am not home. this is what I came home to last night. unsure how she tore through it to even find an edge to start ripping it up, but whatever

can any of the pros in here tell me if by a glance it is asbestos linoleum or not? it is the only layer on top of the subfloor. I'm not nearly as concerned about how much is now in the air, or even the removal of it, but more so that the dog had this in her mouth, playing with it for who knows how long.

I have since picked up all of the loose pieces, bagged them, and put down trash bags over the area and duck taped all of the seams. I plan on going out this afternoon to get one of those asbestos test kits so I can bag a piece and send to a lab, but figured I would ask on here as well for some piece of mind

 

[LB-1911]

May prove informative

http://inspectapedia.com/hazmat/Congoleum_Vinyl_Asbestos_Floors.php


How to Identify Floor Tiles & Sheet Flooring
List of photographic guides to flooring age, brand, pattern, asbestos content
http://inspectapedia.com/interiors/Flooring_ID_Photo_Guides.php

 

[kgordon]

Im sorry i can't help. Usually in the commercial industry old 9"x9" vinyl tiles are asbestos, its probably 99% of the time. But you never know unless your test.

 

[theoldwizard1]

If it is a "sheet" it is not likely original to the house and probably not asbestos.

The issues with asbestos is preventing/controlling air born fibers. Even the really old 9x9 tiles with asbestos stayed together in enough chunks that I would not worry too much about pulling it up.

Don't sweep the remnants as that will make any dust air born. Use a shop vac with a HEPA filter. Empty the vac in to a large plastic bag, outside, standing upwind.

 

[that-guy]

If it is a "sheet" it is not likely original to the house and probably not asbestos.

The issues with asbestos is preventing/controlling air born fibers. Even the really old 9x9 tiles with asbestos stayed together in enough chunks that I would not worry too much about pulling it up.

Don't sweep the remnants as that will make any dust air born. Use a shop vac with a HEPA filter. Empty the vac in to a large plastic bag, outside, standing upwind.

I do understand all of that, and have studied quite a bit on the remediation of asbestos, I am more worried about what the dog may have ingested over anything else...I was planning on eventually pulling up this tile and subfloor to put in ceramic tile anyways

 

[Techie1961]

Not a doctor at all but I would think that ingesting asbestos, especially for a dog, isn't going to be a problem. From what I understand, the problem is with the air-born fibers (like mentioned above) embedding into the lungs and over many years, causing cancer. Since dogs don't live long anyway and it would not be in its lungs, you're probably okay.

Maybe an expert will chime in.

 

[that-guy]

Not a doctor at all but I would think that ingesting asbestos, especially for a dog, isn't going to be a problem. From what I understand, the problem is with the air-born fibers (like mentioned above) embedding into the lungs and over many years, causing cancer. Since dogs don't live long anyway and it would not be in its lungs, you're probably okay.

Maybe an expert will chime in.

what I have gotten from my research, being about humans of course, is that just like when you breathe, it goes to your lungs, it goes to your digestive system, so when you breathe in any sort of particles in the air, ie, asbestos, it goes to both area, clinging to the lining of your lungs. in the digestive system, it will excrete most of it through waste, but what is left can be in the lining of the stomach, intestines and colon

 

[Armorpoxy]

Hi in our experience we agree, if 9x9 usually asbestos, 12x12 usually not.

 

[38 Dodge Coupe]

Like others have already stated, unless you have it tested you will not know. However asbestos was used in a lot of materials and there are some that can assumed to be asbestos containing, which directs how you handle the material for your own safety. The key with asbestos is if the fibers become airborne. This can occur though sanding or grinding. While I would not want to ingest it, it is the airborne fibers that lodge in your lungs that cause the problem. Your lungs are not able to remove the microscopic fibers and then create a protective scar tissue around the fibers, which over time (20-30 years in some cases) reduces the lungs capacity to function. It has been a long time since I have been through the asbestos safety training, but other than the remodeling job that your dog created for you, I suspect that his one ( or two)time event of chewing up the floor will not be a health issue for him.

 

[Bondo]

Ayuh,.... I wouldn't worry 'bout the dog,....

The biggest danger of asbestos in todays world is from the Lawyers that created the "Danger", 'n the bureaucracy that writes the rules,....

Asbestos mighta killed ya if ya worked in a shipyard in the 1930s, or an asbestos mine in the 1950s,....

Today, the fear mongerin' is the biggest danger,....

 

[that-guy]

I went out yesterday and bought an $11 Asbestos Test Kit from Ace Hardware, which is literally a Ziploc bag, disposable gloves, a prepaid envelope, and an information form to include a form of payment for the $40 lab fee...should have results within a week. I was hoping to push back my kitchen remodel for after I am done with my bathroom remodel, but now it looks like I will need to do the two in tandem

 

[duneslider]

That looks like sheet vinyl, not linoleum or VCT. Looks WAY to new to contain asbestos.

 

[that-guy]

That looks like sheet vinyl, not linoleum or VCT. Looks WAY to new to contain asbestos.

just to be safe, I still sent it out. got an email on Monday from the lab saying they got the sample and I should have the results by Monday

 

[SMKS]

For future reference, I like this company. I used them once and got the results the same day my samples arrived.

They're a little cheaper than the kit you bought. $30 for the first test and $20 for each additional.

http://www.asbestos-test.com/

 

[jhelrey]

Let that dog back in the kitchen and help you with that demo work...

 

[that-guy]

For future reference, I like this company. I used them once and got the results the same day my samples arrived.

They're a little cheaper than the kit you bought. $30 for the first test and $20 for each additional.

http://www.asbestos-test.com/

that's some good information...actually took me forever to find a store in my area that stocked the kit without having to special order it...will def. look into this one if I even need to get something tested again

 

[Bobby Cole]

Well now if it is indeed asbestos you will have to go thru the expensive remediation process for sure.

 

[that-guy]

Well now if it is indeed asbestos you will have to go thru the expensive remediation process for sure.

I am going to remediate myself. seal off all entrances into the kitchen, block off the vent, properly bag all remnants, and pull up all of the hardwood underneath. then lay my new subfloor in prep for my new tile...I think no matter if its asbestos or not that's roughly the course of action I am going to take

 

[Dragster Racer]

Well now if it is indeed asbestos you will have to go thru the expensive remediation process for sure.

Why?

 

[Roberts210]

I am an asbestos-denier. When I was in grade school, in the 1950's, all the steam pipes leading to the radiators in our school rooms were sheathed in 2" of white, crumbly asbestos. We would dry our cloth gloves on those steam pipes every day during the winter. We'd pick the white stuff off and flick it at our friends. A few kids probably ate some of the stuff. We definitely breathed it. And not a single one of us ever got cancer from it. So I think the big asbestos scare was and is being driven by hungry attorneys, eager to make big bucks.

 

[BD1]

In the old days besides the tile having asbestos some of the adhesive had it too.

 

[mygarageone]

I am an asbestos-denier. When I was in grade school, in the 1950's, all the steam pipes leading to the radiators in our school rooms were sheathed in 2" of white, crumbly asbestos. We would dry our cloth gloves on those steam pipes every day during the winter. We'd pick the white stuff off and flick it at our friends. A few kids probably ate some of the stuff. We definitely breathed it. And not a single one of us ever got cancer from it. So I think the big asbestos scare was and is being driven by hungry attorneys, eager to make big bucks.

Like you same situation and also lead water pipe , I'm clean and so is everyone that went to that school .
I also used to help my dad in Detroit removing the old coal stokers and install the then modern gas furnaces , had to remove a ton of asbestos on the furnace and the piping at 8 yrs old .
Are there legit cases ? Sure but nothing like this bs they are pushing.

Did you know , that all the so called lead in faucets and copper joints was also a big scare . But did you also know , you would have to drink over a million gallons of water for that old lead infused plumbing would hurt you ?
How many of you drink that much water?
It was always the chipping lead paint that was a problem , because kids would pick it up and ingest it .
But like everything else , they just had to go over board and create a totaly new industry for lawyers and contractors.

Did you know ,we ingest a hell of a lot more harmful **** just breathing the air in most areas.

 

[duneslider]

I am going to remediate myself. seal off all entrances into the kitchen, block off the vent, properly bag all remnants, and pull up all of the hardwood underneath. then lay my new subfloor in prep for my new tile...I think no matter if its asbestos or not that's roughly the course of action I am going to take

I am guessing every state is different but I had to become certified in asbestos removal and I found it interesting that as a contractor there is a very extensive set of rules that have to be followed to remediate any asbestos and I could get in big trouble if I did anything wrong but if Joe homeowner wants to do his own remediation he is required to do NOTHING special and no fines or judgments can come upon him. Same goes for lead removal. If it is so dangerous then why is one group free to do whatever they want and another is bogged down by restrictions? Perhaps it isn't as scary as some make it out to be. Heaven forbid someone bring up the radon gas scam, I mean scare.

 

[tinmanwpk]

As far as attempting to answer the OP, I would not worry about your dog. Asbestos takes at least about 20 years to become a health issue, and the biggest health issue as the airborne fibers.

I was in the mechanical insulation industry started by my family about 100 years ago. I do have some definite first hand experience with asbestos. All you can do now is to make sure you remove it properly if it turns out to be ACM. It is only a problem if the fibers become airborne, so keep it in big pieces.

 

[turbotim66]

Having been an asbestos remover for several yrs, I would say error on the side of caution, use water on the floor where you make your cuts, wet asbestos does not become air bourn. if it has mastic holding the linoleum down use a liquid mastic remover and keep it wet. you can take it down to bare wood. don't sand it as any fibers then become air bourn. when you dispose of it follow local regulations and make sure there is water in the bags to keep it from becoming air bourn if the bag breaks. good luck

 

[slip knot]

I'm thinking that fido will have a bigger issue of ingesting a piece of tile versus any asbestosis or meso. Those issues will take many years to manifest and by then fido will be long gone.
I doubt that there is an asbestos issue anyway. The 9X9 tiles and black adhesives were usually positive but even then if they were handled right it isnt a big issue. as mentioned earlier, dont grind or break up the pieces. and keep the work wet. friable fibers are the problem. as long as dust is held to a minimum then you should be ok.

 

[that-guy]

updating this thread, I'm now in the process of pulling up the linoleum and known asbestos vinyl tile that lies underneath, directly on top of a real hardwood floor. the hardwood is still in great shape, despite there being a residue of the black tar like asbestos adhesive laying on top. since the rest of the house is this same hardwood that I refinished over a year ago, I would like to refinish this as well, instead of pulling it all and laying hardi-board and ceramic tile like I had originally planned

my question is, what methods have any of you used to get up old adhesives from hardwood floors prior to sanding and staining? I have looked around online and found people who have used orange oil based strippers, and/or wall paper steamers to pull it up, but has had mixed reviews.

side note: no, I am not going to tile directly over the hardwood, as that will create a raised transition between the two surfaces

 

[crguy]

It will be a whole lot easier to just replace the wood floor than trying to get that old adhesive off cleanly.

 

[that-guy]

It will be a whole lot easier to just replace the wood floor than trying to get that old adhesive off cleanly.

my only two options are these: clean up, sand, stain, and poly existing wood floor (which I still have leftover from doing the rest of the house) so it will only cost me time, or remove all hardwood from the kitchen and lay down hardi-board and tile, which will obviously cost me in materials

all I want to do is get as much of the adhesive off as possible before sanding. I will be using a HEPA respirator and would be vacuuming with HEPA shop vac, all while the room will be sealed off from the rest of the house, as well as the fridge, oven, and cabinets removed, as I will be refinishing my cabinets shortly there after

edit: the affected area is roughly 180 sq ft.

 

[roscoe2000]

Most of the time the asbestos is confined to the adhesive used in installing the tile. To do the removal of the adhesive is very time consuming and to proper way is labor intensive.
And sanding is the last thing you would want to do if the adhesive contains friable asbestos fibers. Idealy you would lay a new floor overtop of the existing, encapsulation any existing asbestos.

 

[38 Dodge Coupe]

I just did tile removal and mastic removal on a concrete basement floor. Check out mastic remover products by FranMar Chemical Inc. It is about $150.00 for 5 gallon pail or $35.00 + $18 for shipping for one gallon. It is a soy based product. and I don't know how it would work on hardwood, but it took the black mastic off to the bare concrete for me. It is a slow process but it does work.I think they may have a product for hardwood.

 

[jhelrey]

I would imagine you will have to scrape... a lot.

I also imagine if you do sand, you will need an air filtration system.

 

[that-guy]

I just did tile removal and mastic removal on a concrete basement floor. Check out mastic remover products by FranMar Chemical Inc. It is about $150.00 for 5 gallon pail or $35.00 + $18 for shipping for one gallon. It is a soy based product. and I don't know how it would work on hardwood, but it took the black mastic off to the bare concrete for me. It is a slow process but it does work.I think they may have a product for hardwood.

that's a good little tid bit I will look into, thank you

even after getting up as much of the adhesive as humanly possible, I will still create a negative pressure environment, while also wearing a proper body suit, HEPA respirator, and clean up with a HEPA shop vac

 

[that-guy]

after looking into the Fanmar products, it seems that they are geared towards concrete and not wood, so I bought a small bottle of Citri Strip Gel last night and am going to give that a try this evening and see how well it works. I've used it on wood furniture before with good results, so hopefully it will do the same for this adhesive

 

[heynicebits]

Everything ive come across has been 9x9 tiles. Also its usually the mastic thats the issue. It was common for it to be black too. But never take the risk. Get the lab results before continuing.

 

[gungatim]

I had that exact floor in my first starter home (40's tract house). 9x9 yellow asbestos tiles. scraped them off and tossed in the trash, the black mastic I left on the hardwood. you'll never get that hardwood to look nice (I tried) they laid it generally as subfloor, so it was probably never finished. my solution was 4x4 subfloor panels directly over the mastic, nailed every 2" (they come premarked) then sheet vinyl. today I would not even do the subfloor. just lay builders paper down and use laminate...

 

[that-guy]

well, I got into it a little bit last night (sorry, no pics) but I tested a roughly 1 sq. ft. area and it worked like a dream, took every bit of it off after only leaving it to set an hour, couldn't be happier with how well it worked. even took off whatever sort of varnish or whatever was on the wood prior to them installing the vinyl tiles, so if the rest of the floor comes out the same, I don't see the need to even sand, just clean all of the residue with warm water and a sponge, let the entire area thoroughly dry, then stain and poly

 

[billspit]

I used to be a consultant in the asbestos business. Black mastic is almost always positive for asbestos. The citrus solvents worked well to remove black mastic. The asbestos in linoleum is on the pad on the back side. Not sure I've ever seen asbestos in the linoleum mastic. It's usually the yellow stuff and not positive. I used to collect air samples during floor tile abatement. The fiber counts weren't squat inside the containment during full blown abatement. We still had to go full containment, negative pressure, etc.

 

[that-guy]

^^^that's exactly what I have been thinking for years. I will report back with pictures tomorrow after I treat a much larger area tonight