post depth and length

[barnrundrifter]

So I'm going to start building my garage.. slowly ... I'm going to build a 30x40 with a 6 ft over hang ... I'm going to buy the poles 4x6 ... and the 2x12 that the rafters will set on how deep should I set the poles and how long will they need to be ... I'm wanting a 12 ft ceiling ... I'm going to set the poles on 4ft centers...

 

[Sureshot]

I would be careful buying "parts" without a bigger plan. I would be inclined to bank the money until I had enough to close the building in at the least get a roof in place. If you put up those 4x6 poles without strapping and such they will likely warp and twist. Your rafters will weather and possibly warp and twist. You will need to setup for the roof system twice and spend more time setting up to put up rafters then coming back to strap and tin the roof.

I did my building one year and the floor and a bunch of other stuff the next year so I know what you are trying but I think you need to look into it more. Check out a 4x6 that is left unbundled. I used laminated posts. Even if going 4x6 poles I would consider laminated beside your overhead doors.

Why 4' on the poles?
What codes do you need to meet?
Frost depth?
Lots of homework to do yet.

 

[theoldwizard1]

... I used laminated posts. Even if going 4x6 poles I would consider laminated beside your overhead doors.

Why 4' on the poles?
What codes do you need to meet?
Frost depth?
Lots of homework to do yet.

Yes to all of the above !

First, check with the local building inspectors. I'm sure he will want plans.

 

[kd3pc]

I'm sure he will want plans.

and will likely tell you how deep to place them and on what centers. The last one I did, required an inspection of Each Empty hole diameter and depth and he checked each and every one. The poles are easy to get in the hole, not so much getting them out, as we found out - having put two poles in their holes, before finding out they required the holes empty.

In the absence of AHJ, 6 inches below frost line at least.

 

[barnrundrifter]

I won't have it inspected ... I've got a net work of people who specialized in every thing I need I could tie stickers together and no one would say a word ... really ....the way I have it figured 4' centers and I'd need 35 poles at 16 ft BC I need a 12 ' ceiling

 

[bentwrench54]

I won't have it inspected ... I've got a net work of people who specialized in every thing I need I could tie stickers together and no one would say a word ... really ....the way I have it figured 4' centers and I'd need 35 poles at 16 ft BC I need a 12 ' ceiling

here's the problem with your logic....

someone's gonna see it either completed, or under construction. most cities/townships/counties etc. require building permits. there are differing rules from state to state.

say you're halfway through construction, and an inspector shows up and is checking for permits... they stop you dead in your tracks and make you tear it down, and probably fine you. do you REALLY want to do that?

they do an aerial survey and see a building that wasn't there the year before. they will come check it out.....

do yourself a favor and look into legalities for construction.

 

[Strictly Gravy]

I am sorry if I misread your post, but you are looking at installing 35 16'ers for a 30x40 shop? I am assuming then that you are not going to use trusses? That just seems like a lot of post driving/setting. I just set my 30x36x10 pole barn with 8 6x6s. I will have an 8' overhang on the back that will be enclosed with the shop for my tools and workbenches as well, which will require 4 more posts, but will be slab mounted.

I would definitely plan it out to see what you want and how you are going to lay it out. I know you said you have connections, but that just seems like a lot of extra work since there are other construction methods that would be cheaper.

As far as depth, my county code states that I need to have minimum 33% of my above ground depth underground, so I just my set 14'ers at 4' underground.

 

[Stuart in MN]

We have no idea where you're located so it's impossible to say what you should do.

 

[JoeFin]

I won't have it inspected ... I've got a net work of people who specialized in every thing I need I could tie stickers together and no one would say a word ... really ....the way I have it figured 4' centers and I'd need 35 poles at 16 ft BC I need a 12 ' ceiling

Ah - "The Best made Plans of Mice and Men"

Take it from some one who had neighbors that "Would NEVER call the County Building Dept on me"

Had to TEAR DOWN my simple structure

Pay $1250 in additional Permit Penalties

Had the Building Inspector on my property Red Tagging my structure and citing every thing from the grape arbor behind the pool, to the 4 x 6 post under the deck. to needing spring swung gates because I have a pool in my back yard

And still has the inspectors up my **** with my properly permitted shop addition about every little screw or nail I put in it

THEY USE GOOGLE EARTH and Software built to spot changes in the land scape

Good Luck Buddy

 

[mrobins297aaa]

I'd use 6x6 post for a building that tall

 

[theoldwizard1]

I won't have it inspected ...

SO you are NEVER going to sell ?

When you die, who ever inherit the property will inherit the burden of an un-permitted building.

 

[JoeFin]

Some interesting links you should be concerned about

Officials Use Google Earth To Find Unlicensed Pools
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/10/08/03/1338228/

State of Indiana - County of Monroe
http://www.co.monroe.in.us/tsd/Government/TaxProperty/Surveyor/GoogleEarthLayers.aspx

Might want to see if your local building inspectors office/planning dept. is "Fee Funded"

 

[Highbeam]

You want it inspected. Protects you from screwing it up and wasting money or killing yourself, and protects the future owners from same. Protects your investment. I am proud of my engineered plans and of the county's Certificate of Occupancy that I earned by building it right. These things add immense value.

4 foot centers is ridiculous. Your post holes will need to be 2-3 feet across and with them so close together you will end up with a mess of unstable junk and spoils from one hole filling the next. For comparison, my posts are 12 feet apart and full dimension 6x8 for a 30x60x14' ceiling.

 

[barnrundrifter]

Thanks guys ... my county does not require building code or permits .. way use 6x6 posts? Because of the over hang ? I'm kinda a jack of all trades master of none .. I would think 4x6 posts would support the weight of the rafters and snow ...

 

[RedBKM]

You can laminate three 2x6 treated boards to make a nice 6x6. Any bow or twist can be countered by careful assembly and you end up with a decent timber. It also makes it easy to cut in your step at the top for your header board. Some say the treatment doesn't penetrate to the core of a 6x6 so by using laminated boards you have treatment through and through.

As for permits... Some areas of this fine country must be VERY strict. My permit application had a section for "Agriculture" and there were zero inspections. I paid the fee, they signed it, handed right back through the window. My insurance agent came out and took a few photos and was happy.

Our county tax man sure as hell doesn't care about permits and inspections. He measures anything standing and rings up the $$$.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I don't recall seeing what state you are in, so I will save that the post needs to go down below the frost line. Some counties require a concrete "cookie" of at least 12" diameter and 6" thick be poured into the bottom and and allowed to set before the post is inserted. The top of that cookie should be 36-40" deep.

Better yet, use a cardboard form and have it come about 6-12" above grade. Set in an anchor bolt and then use Simpson post base brackets (ABA/ABU/ABW Series). If you do it this way, you don't have to use pressure treated wood, because it never touches the ground.

I would use 6x6 post built up from 2x6s as others have said. Laminate the 2x6 with construction adhesive and nails. The lumber will be straighter and it will probably cost less. Turn the column so that the 6" side of the 2by is parallel to the wall. Cut the inner and outer 2x6 shorter so that a 2x10 can rest on each of them and be level with the middle 2x6 on top. Through bolt with at least 4 carriage bolts (galvanized if you are using PT wood). Space the joints of the inner and outer 2x10 so that they never have 2 joints on top of one post.

If you do it this way, you do not need any brackets to attach the 2x10 to the posts. I recommend some kind of strap connection the roof truss to the 2x10 (Simpson H series)

 

[theoldwizard1]

As for permits... Some areas of this fine country must be VERY strict. My permit application had a section for "Agriculture" and there were zero inspections. I paid the fee, they signed it, handed right back through the window. My insurance agent came out and took a few photos and was happy.

Good point !


A common bad building practice is to bolt the top girt (or do they call it a plate ?) to the face of the post. Very bad ! The full load is now resting on a couple of bolts. The load needs to be transferred straight down on TOP of the post !

 

[RedBKM]

A common bad building practice is to bolt the top girt (or do they call it a plate ?) to the face of the post. Very bad ! The full load is now resting on a couple of bolts. The load needs to be transferred straight down on TOP of the post !

Having a single AND on the surface would be scary indeed. I've met a few guys that could cut in a 6x6 with a chainsaw and it looked milled. These are few and far between though.

I would cut the outside and inside 2x6 and leave the center 2x6 full length. Example: look at your pointer, middle, ring finger stretched out. Attach the inner and outer 2x6 header/plate/girt with another 2x6 in between or use blocking. That makes a solid frame and sheeting inside and outside so much easier.

 

[kbs2244]

Everything you wanted to know about building a pole building, and more.

http://www.easybuildings.com/

 

[jack stand]

What ever you do, be sure the lumber you are putting in the dirt is rated for "ground contact" . I'm kinda done with PT in the ground ever since they went away from CCA. That pic is from Perma Column.
Someone does make plastic "boots" for 6x6 & 2x6 3ply, and there are other things out there that are sold to prevent rot and uplift, but it all points me to conceret.

 

[jack stand]

.

I would use 6x6 post built up from 2x6s as others have said. Laminate the 2x6 with construction adhesive and nails. The lumber will be straighter and it will probably cost less. (Simpson H series)

I used to do this but I have NOT been able to find (in many years) any small dimensional lumber that is rated for groung contact, its a shame as this method is way straighter & stronger and treated better than any 6x6. I used to transition to reg KD lumber at the staggered joints well above grade.
As far as I know, CCA treating is only available in "timbers" and I think that leaves out any 2x material.

 

[Sureshot]

I would do some checking in the area for what the pros have done. As with anything pole buildings started out simple and then engineers and permit people stepped in and for better or worse added a bunch of stuff.

I live in an area like you where no inspection is needed and no one ever looked at anything. I used the largest builder in Western Canada and they use the laminated posts. They have buildings 40+ yrs old still in business going strong. I would not shortcut things, but the cement donuts etc seem excessive unless you live in a swamp etc. My building is 6' centers with the trusses at 6' but they are engineered for that spacing. The trusses are mounted into the cut poles. You need an engineered system with the proper pole spacing, strapping, truss strength etc and the non-load bearing walls don't need any poles so place them as needed for door openings etc.

 

[barnrundrifter]

Thanks for the positive replies for those of you who got nasty I do not read your **** ( Indiana is the state I live in and Martin is the county ) I'm beginning to think this Fourm is not for me ...

 

[tomroblee]

In Martin County I would think that the poles should be set no less than 4' in the ground. That would place them safely below the frost line. Setting them deeper would improve the resistance to wind lift.

I might suggest that you talk to a couple of the Amish/Mennonite pole barn companies in Daviess County. (Daviess County Metal and/or Graber Post Buildings). Both sell material and material packages as well as completed buildings. (When they sell a completed building, they subcontract the labor to individual crews.) These companies have computers that design the buildings and prepare material lists at the same time. It's about a five or ten minute process.

 

[theoldwizard1]

What ever you do, be sure the lumber you are putting in the dirt is rated for "ground contact" . I'm kinda done with PT in the ground ever since they went away from CCA. That pic is from Perma Column.
Someone does make plastic "boots" for 6x6 & 2x6 3ply, and there are other things out there that are sold to prevent rot and uplift, but it all points me to conceret.

Forget the plastic "boots". Just a gimmick IMHO.

Either use Perma Columns or mimic them by having a concrete foundation that come out above the grade and that a post base can be secured to.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I've met a few guys that could cut in a 6x6 with a chainsaw and it looked milled. These are few and far between though.

Heck, I have a hard time doing that with a circular saw !

Attach the inner and outer 2x6 header/plate/girt with another 2x6 in between or use blocking. That makes a solid frame and sheeting inside and outside so much easier.

Good suggestion. It probably does not add a lot of strength, but it certainly makes for a slid top "plate" to nail to ! A little expensive on a large building.

 

[Kevin54]

Thanks for the positive replies for those of you who got nasty I do not read your **** ( Indiana is the state I live in and Martin is the county ) I'm beginning to think this Fourm is not for me ...

Wow!!! I was going to say "Welcome to Garage Journal", but it sounds like you got your ******* in a wad and don't want to hang around.

First off, your first couple of remarks makes it sound like you are just going to go against what anyone says anyways. Secondly, you act like if someone disagrees, then you don't want to really listen to the reason why and naturally assume they are the "Nasty, Negative" people.

Thirdly, you should put your location in your profile. That way we would know whether you live in some other country, in the United States, or live in Africa. There are people on this site from all over the world, so if someone replies that you may need a permit, you don't need to get your ******* in a wad because we don't even know where you are coming from.

Now....with that said, even though you have a "NETWORK" of people that know everything, why would you ask how far the post need to be and what size they need to be? A 4"x6" post is going to be too small for the size you are building. You wouldn't want any less than a 6"x6" post, and better that it be laminated as the treatment on the post will completely saturate a laminated post over a solid 6"x6" post.

Next, you need to check with your county about the proper permits. For one, you may not have to have a building permit if you are out in the country, but I can't believe the county doesn't give a **** as to what is built. For one, they will advise you as to how far off the property line you have to be, for another they will tell you how far away from your septic system you have to be, and they will also tell you what your setback limits are.

So if you don't know what size of post you need, then want to argue about the size of the post as you already have your mind made up, then I really don't see the purpose of the way you started the thread in the first place.

Maybe you should have just started out by saying "**** the system, this is the ******* way I'm building my building, and **** the man 'cause I'm not getting any stinkin' permits and me and my crew are gonna' do this yo. "

So seriously.....this site is a site for building garages, pole barns, barns, rehabs, shootin' the ****, home remodeling, cars, asking for help, and giving help. But with 9 post under your belt and you're getting pissy with other members because you don't agree or think they are "NASTY" for giving advice. It doesn't really fly and that is one of the quickest ways to get on the bad side of members.

SO NOW......with all of that said, I'll back up a little.

Barnrundrifter....Welcome to Garage Journal. Hopefully you'll hang around and post up some pics of the build. We as members like pics. Hopefully you'll hang around and share your build with everyone. Looking forward to seeing you around on the Board.

 

[gungatim]

Do you have a Menard's in your area? You can have them price out a materials kit for whatever size bldg. you want. They have a computer kiosk you can go to and put in size, windows, doors, etc.

They also have a guide on building a pole barn they sell for a couple bucks, it is not a book, just a pamphlet they print out. Using the mat'l list and their pamphlet, you will see how tall the poles are, what the spacing is, and what size you will need for the boards, and they will spec 2x12 or laminated depending on your loads. My 30x40 has the poles around 9ft. apart, and the span dictates the size of the boards holding up the rafters. If you go 6ft. between, how will you put in a garage door?

 

[rancherbill]

I'm beginning to think this Fourm is not for me ...

Sometimes that happens.

A question was asked and guys who have been there - done that answered.

You asked a planning question and got some answers on planning. Proper Planning and Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance.

 

[Sureshot]

I disagree with you Kev on the 4x6" post. If he puts them at 4' I would think they are enough. That is why I would try to get the whole system figured out before starting. You put 4x6 at 4' you should plan rafters for 4', same as strapping etc.

Mine are at 6' and are 4 ply laminated(maybe 5). The roof and wall strapping was 2x6".

When I was pricing and planning one of the sales guys shot down one of the other companies claim of a better building. His basic idea was that you will use the same amount of lumber for a given size building. Make thicker posts, heavier trusses, and bigger strapping and you can space the poles farther. Go closer on the poles and everything gets lighter. They find 6' center to be efficient and quick.

Goodon Industries is who built both mine and will likely get the next if their is one. We are renting part of the red roofed building on the commercial page and three of those others are within half a mile.

http://www.goodon.com/buildings/commercial.html