posts coated with tar foundation coating

[Tarheel Slim]

Im just wondering if using a tar foundation coating would help a 6x6 post thats on a concrete footing from rotting,was thinking of coating 5 to 6 foot of each post then pouring concrete over my footing when i set the posts.Anyone ever try this before?

 

[DougWil]

Just drill your holes, make up a rebar cage and install these.

https://www.permacolumn.com/wet-set-models

I can't believe anyone would put wood in the ground, then build a building around it and slabs when the solution is so simple and low cost to have a footing that should last 100s of years.

 

[MagKarl]

So simple and low cost? They were Very expensive and unavailable in my area when I checked. If any of my posts rot someday I'll consider a bracket then.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Water rot wood. PERIOD.

The object of any coating is to provide a barrier between the wood and the water. Either put the wood ABOVE grade (as shown) OR back fill the last 1'-2' of your hole with gravel so that the water will drain away quickly. Not as good as the first suggestion, but is does help a lot !

 

[alwaysFlOoReD]

The object of any coating is to provide a barrier between the wood and the water.

That's what he is proposing to do with the foundation coating.

I would look at what the wood foundation guys do. They are not common but are built.

 

[BgBmBoo]

Just drill your holes, make up a rebar cage and install these.

https://www.permacolumn.com/wet-set-models

I can't believe anyone would put wood in the ground, then build a building around it and slabs when the solution is so simple and low cost to have a footing that should last 100s of years.

Such a good idea. I've used the j bolt mounted type, but never seen those before.

 

[Big Bad Dad]

When I built my pole building, I put a heavy coating of foundation/roofing tar on the treated posts that were going into the ground on concrete footers. This was 2001. No problem so far, check with me in about 50 years for an update....

 

[Cyberbear]

There are too many variables to consider when putting wood into the soil. Even when a fifty year duration is achieved in some instances, someone at sometime will need to deal with the rot problem. Why chance the inevitable, just use concrete as the foundation material. Concrete doesn't rot.

 

[gungatim]

we just use treated posts around here, the ones rated for ground contact, not the cheap decking posts. they sit on a cement pad at the bottom of the hole (36" min.) and backfilled with gravel and sand for drainage. I have yet to see one rotten in my lifetime but I'm not that old so...I also have a gallon of the stuff they use to treat wood with I paint on regular posts for fences and stuff. Pretty sure it's banned but it's the original formula with arsenic and copper and all kinds of nasty stuff. used to be able to buy it in the hardware store in the 70's before pressure treated wood became popular.

 

[superduty59]

Just drill your holes, make up a rebar cage and install these.

https://www.permacolumn.com/wet-set-models

I can't believe anyone would put wood in the ground, then build a building around it and slabs when the solution is so simple and low cost to have a footing that should last 100s of years.

I like the idea but they are not cheap. I have read a lot of bad things about side wind loads using those brackets. A pole in the ground will resist side wind loads. A pole sitting on top of concrete will maybe not rot but may get damaged in high winds.

 

[DougWil]

A 6x6 wet set is $34.

If $34 vs tearing down the building or ripping out the slab, drywall, electrical and insulation to replace rotting posts.

They are rated for lateral loads. If you have higher loads, use a bigger bracket or use exterior sheeting OSB shearwalls.

 

[superduty59]

There are basically 2 very different ideas when building a pole barn when it comes to columns.
1) drop a complete pole in the ground (acts as it's own foundation and structure) Cheaper $65 each for a 3-ply column. Disadvantage- may rot if not properly treated. Life span 5-25 years maybe.
2) use a Permacolumn product or the type. Has been said it creates a "hinge" at the ground. It's not a solid structure. $102 for the permacolumn and another $50 for a 3-ply column. Some additional $ for OSB to handle the wind load if required. Advantage- will not rot. Wet set is $35 but then more money to fill the hole level with the ground with concrete.

I like both types. I see advantages to each. For me it will come down to value. If money was not an issue then I would probably just have it built and not care too much.

 

[Evilunclegrimace]

There is a company that makes heat shrink condoms for direct bury of posts. I will try to find their name.

 

[rieferman]

2) use a Permacolumn product or the type. Has been said it creates a "hinge" at the ground.

My experience has been that those saying these types of things haven't looked into it.

https://www.permacolumn.com/are-they-strong-enough


The concrete portion, bracket, and posts have been tested thoroughly and shown to be quite strong.

 

[superduty59]

My experience has been that those saying these types of things haven't looked into it.

https://www.permacolumn.com/are-they-strong-enough


The concrete portion, bracket, and posts have been tested thoroughly and shown to be quite strong.

I have looked into it. I like the idea of it not rotting. It just don't make sense to me that it could be as strong as a continuous column that is 42 inches in the ground. Through their testing it might be fine. I bet it would be just fine unless you had some extreme situation. Still a lot of upfront costs. Close to $200 a hole and I have 13.

 

[Disney]

How many people on here have a problem of their poles rotting in the ground? When I was researching my pole barn I saw lots of blustering about how it WOULD rot, but not a single person chimed in with their actual horror story.

 

[gungatim]

How many people on here have a problem of their poles rotting in the ground? When I was researching my pole barn I saw lots of blustering about how it WOULD rot, but not a single person chimed in with their actual horror story.

well we fixed a rotten post on a barn built in the 40's...so it does happen. but then that was just an un-treated piece of green wood. it lasted 70 years or so. we replaced it with a section of old telephone pole.

in order to rot, it's not just water, it needs oxygen, decay organisms, and nutrients in the soil as well as warm temp. most of that is non-existent below six inches or so. ground level is where you need to worry but you can mitigate that with proper technique...notice why salvaged wood logs are not rotten, or the dock pilings in ocean bays...

 

[DougWil]

How many people on here have a problem of their poles rotting in the ground? When I was researching my pole barn I saw lots of blustering about how it WOULD rot, but not a single person chimed in with their actual horror story.

You didn't do much research.
Here is a 2 second Google using forums with actual owners, not sales reps.

http://chronofhorse.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-393774.html

I have 4 morton buildings, which I call pole barns. They put a treated post directly into the ground. Our oldest one has creosote 6X6 posts, and the newer ones are three 2X6's nailed together staggered to make posts. They all rot the same. They last about 20 years before they rot off.
http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=ttalk&th=1122733

 

[MagKarl]

If you search this sight there are hundreds if not thousands of posts about the fear of rotten posts, but very few first hand stories about pole replacement.

Sure it can and does happen, but nowhere near big enough risk for me to forego the foundation cost savings for a larger structure.

 

[rieferman]

When in the industry, I made steady commission checks sending our crews out to replace rotten posts in the PA, NJ, MD, and DE region (my territory at the time). Youngest building was 5 years old, oldest was 70 years old. Most were in the 15 year range.

It is what it is... people will believe through and through that it can't happen to them, and I hope they're right. But to me, a little extra per post (about $2,000 for all the posts in the example noted above) to be absolutely certain you'll never have a problem compared to the total cost of a build is in the "why on earth would you do it any other way" category.

Side note... from a real estate resale perspective, permanent foundation (either stick build on poured or block foundation, or post-frame with perma columns or similar) is a selling feature. I know that I wouldn't buy someone else's old pole barn with wood in the ground. I've already fixed a barn (on my property) where all (yes ALL) the 10x10 posts were completely rotted through.. Fool me once...

 

[Disney]

How old was that barn again? 100 years?

Cool story. Like I said, Lots of stories, very very little proof or pictures of all these rotted subterrain posts. If there are any, they tend to be 50 years old. I don't care what happens to my pole barn 50 years from now. Hell I don't care what happens to it after 20 years. If it lasts 20 years, that's Less than $1000/yr for a pretty awesome shop.

To the OP, My thoughts are to do what makes you comfortable. If you want to slather the posts in tar, Go right ahead. If you want to use the pole protectors (sleeves) Condoms, paint, Concrete.. I don't see that it matters. So long as you are building to at least what Code calls for, then I believe you'll be fine. Good luck on the build!

 

[G-ManBart]

My experience has been that those saying these types of things haven't looked into it.

https://www.permacolumn.com/are-they-strong-enough


The concrete portion, bracket, and posts have been tested thoroughly and shown to be quite strong.

Exactly. I spent about 2 years doing research before I started on my "pole barn" and decided the Sturdi-wall brackets were the way to go. We're very close to the water table, and because there had been a house on the spot previously the ground was disturbed going down several feet which meant we were going to have to set the poles extra deep. I didn't want the poles down in water table, so we did a traditional 12" concrete poured foundation and used the Sturdi-Wall brackets to mount the posts.

I was leaving town for a couple of months for work, so I hired a local pole barn expert to erect the walls, trusses, and do all the outside metal. After her got the first wall up he called me and said "damn, this wall with those brackets is STIFF, I didn't expect that." At the end he said the brackets were much faster to put up and definitely strong enough.

It wasn't the cheapest way to go, but I'm convinced it was the best choice.

 

[classic boost]

not saying it couldn't happen or that you shouldn't go an extra step to coat them, but i helped my friend disassemble a 40x80 pole barn he purchased. it was a 12yr old horse barn at the bottom of a hill. the 4x6 posts looked great.

 

[readhead]

Lets all agree that the reason pole buildings are popular is because they are cheap compared to conventional construction. Just like Rieferman I have made a good living replacing pole buildings with metal buildings.

This discussion is pointless. It's like asking which is better, Ford or Chevy? People will continue to bury wood in the ground for eternity because it's fast and cheap. Instant gratification.

 

[G-ManBart]

How old was that barn again? 100 years?

Cool story. Like I said, Lots of stories, very very little proof or pictures of all these rotted subterrain posts. If there are any, they tend to be 50 years old. I don't care what happens to my pole barn 50 years from now. Hell I don't care what happens to it after 20 years. If it lasts 20 years, that's Less than $1000/yr for a pretty awesome shop.

To the OP, My thoughts are to do what makes you comfortable. If you want to slather the posts in tar, Go right ahead. If you want to use the pole protectors (sleeves) Condoms, paint, Concrete.. I don't see that it matters. So long as you are building to at least what Code calls for, then I believe you'll be fine. Good luck on the build!

"Very little proof or pictures"? I've found countless threads on a couple of different forums where people have had this problem and then someone in this thread talks about replacing rotted poles for a living.

The posts that you could get years ago were pretty good and would survive being in the ground. The current treated stuff that is readily available...not so much, and it's not an urban legend.

Just because something is to Code doesn't mean it's all that good, much less the best way to do something.

 

[DougWil]

"Very little proof or pictures"? I've found countless threads on a couple of different forums where people have had this problem and then someone in this thread talks about replacing rotted poles for a living.

The posts that you could get years ago were pretty good and would survive being in the ground. The current treated stuff that is readily available...not so much, and it's not an urban legend.

Just because something is to Code doesn't mean it's all that good, much less the best way to do something.

Putting posts in the ground 100 years ago with dense, old growth wood, treated with chemicals that you can't use today when there weren't a lot of options was OK. Especially when you didn't try and turn the barn into a fully finished shop and make post replacement economically nonviable.

Now, it just isn't the case. And options to remedy it are fairly low cost.

Around these parts, industrially treated power poles last about 50 years, with old time creosote and frequent drilling and injecting of chemicals to extend the life.

When those 14"ish diameter poles finally go you can poke your finger right though the wood.

6x6 posts of today's punky wood aren't going to have near that life.