Pouring Model T Bearings

[Garcky]

Here's a job mechanics don't do any longer. You can still get it done, but dealing with poured Babbitt bearings is becoming a lost art. The tools needed to pour and fit those bearings are just not in auto repair garages any longer, but they were at one time. Here's a video of pouring main bearings for a Model T:

 

[Junkdrawer Dog]

Great video! Now I need to see one to understand how bearing scrapers work. I did notice that he used what appeared to be some vintage Channellocks. Seems appropriate!

 

[Garcky]

Great video! Now I need to see one to understand how bearing scrapers work. I did notice that he used what appeared to be some vintage Channellocks. Seems appropriate!

I didn't find a video about the scraping process, but I didn't look too hard. I will. I've always wondered about Babbitt bearings in engines. I have never encountered them, since they are before my time, even though I'm 77 years old. Everything I've ever worked on has had bearing inserts. I wonder what the Model T restorers do about that. Even Model As had Babbitt bearings. Anyway, if I find a video, I'll post it in this thread.

 

[MBfreak]

Great video. The guy is fantastic.
How does he light his gas torch?

Ola

 

[Garcky]

Great video. The guy is fantastic.
How does he light his gas torch?

Ola

I don't know. You never see him do it. Clearly, he has experience with that process. "Looks pretty good."

 

[speed bump]

We have a few shops that pour babbit bearings for us for ball mills and synchronous motors. Scraping is always interesting, on our oldest mill we lost a bearing shell and wiped the babbit. Since we didn't have good dimensions for the bearings they poured us undersized and we had 3 guys spend 4 days scraping it.

As far as why they went away in cars is they are soft and don't like RPM. Most of the applications we have them on are less than 300 rpm applications that don't see regular shock loads and the temperature is well controlled.

 

[1930 Model A Ford]

I have a 1930 Model A Ford and the Model A's also had babbit bearings. When I got a rebuilt engine I got one that had been line bored and converted to insert bearings. Also had the valve seats replaced so it could operate on unleaded gas. I think most of the vintage rebuilds involve converting to insert bearings since it is so difficult to find someone who can do babbit bearings. Insert bearings also last longer and are obviously replaceable.

 

[Packard V8]

A friend with a shop here in Spokane is considered the best babbit bearing guy still extant. He has blocks and rods shipped in to him from all over the world.

His take is properly done babbit mains and rods in a Ford Model A or Model T will be better than the conversion to inserts. A babbit bearing run with today's oil will last more miles than most today want to drive an antique.

jack vines

 

[Garcky]

I have a 1930 Model A Ford and the Model A's also had babbit bearings. When I got a rebuilt engine I got one that had been line bored and converted to insert bearings. Also had the valve seats replaced so it could operate on unleaded gas. I think most of the vintage rebuilds involve converting to insert bearings since it is so difficult to find someone who can do babbit bearings. Insert bearings also last longer and are obviously replaceable.

Conversion is a popular option, for sure. It's also probably cheaper than sending things off to someone who can re-Babbitt the stock components. That's true, anyhow, for popular cars being restored. Maybe not so much for less common vehicles, though.

 

[Garcky]

Scraping Connecting Rod Babbitt Bearings

I couldn't find any videos that apply to Model T or Model A cars, but here's someone scraping poured Babbitt bearings for a different engine.

And here's another one, of scraping bearings for an old stationary engine:

 

[vssjim]

Most people that drive these old cars defiantly get the parts machined and put in modern type insert bearings and same with valves and seats so you can drive it and it will not need constant repair and maintenance

 

[humber2]

I’m sure the acetylene is ignited from any nearby heat source above ignition temp.

It’s that easy.

 

[freudianfloyd]

Great video. The guy is fantastic.
How does he light his gas torch?

Ola

Looked like he lit it with the torch on the stand he moved, that he had preheating the mold.

 

[wafrederick]

One Machine shop in my area does not do it,they outsource it.Has to be done right

 

[ChefRex]

Keith Rucker has a few videos on the subject,

 

[Junkdrawer Dog]

Scraping looks incredibly tedious! A high school buddy did some time as tool and die maker apprentice, polishing bits and pieces for plastic injection molds. He couldn't stand the tedium and took a job in the inspection department.

 

[dutchgray]

Scraping looks incredibly tedious! A high school buddy did some time as tool and die maker apprentice, polishing bits and pieces for plastic injection molds. He couldn't stand the tedium and took a job in the inspection department.

Its is something you definitely have to have the right mindset to do, especially if its your job and people did spend their whole career scraping bearings in.

I definitely do not have the right mindset to be any good at scraping.

 

[jar944]

Keith Rucker has a few videos on the subject,

I was going to say Its pretty common within the owwm crowd. Lots of old machines still running on babbitt.

 

[kaymccampbell]

We have a few shops that pour babbit bearings for us for ball mills and synchronous motors. Scraping is always interesting, on our oldest mill we lost a bearing shell and wiped the babbit. Since we didn't have good dimensions for the bearings they poured us undersized and we had 3 guys spend 4 days scraping it.

As far as why they went away in cars is they are soft and don't like RPM. Most of the applications we have them on are less than 300 rpm applications that don't see regular shock loads and the temperature is well controlled.

I have a 1930 Model A Ford and the Model A's also had babbit bearings. When I got a rebuilt engine I got one that had been line bored and converted to insert bearings. Also had the valve seats replaced so it could operate on unleaded gas. I think most of the vintage rebuilds involve converting to insert bearings since it is so difficult to find someone who can do babbit bearings. Insert bearings also last longer and are obviously replaceable.

Most people that drive these old cars defiantly get the parts machined and put in modern type insert bearings and same with valves and seats so you can drive it and it will not need constant repair and maintenance

The only reason that manufacturers changed from cast in place bearings to slip bearings is cost. For the most part engine bearings are still one of the Babbitt metals skimmed over copper slips. There are some other formulations using aluminum or other metals, but for the most part they're still lead based. This may be changing.

Babbitt can run at ridiculously high speed, for long periods of time, in unfriendly environments. You just need to choose the correct formulation, and surface quality.

Pouring and scraping Babbitt is not difficult or very time consuming. I made tooling, and poured and scraped Babbitt overlays for 19th century lathe main bearings in my old shop. It was a one long-ish day process, and I was relatively unfamiliar, having only seen it done for one of the economy engines on my grandparents' farm. I constantly see online people making a meal out of what was a relatively quick process. There is a tool for scraping Babbitt in Ford car, and other, engines, much like there is a tool for casting the bearings. IMO, the fiddlers with pen knives, are just that.

 

[speed bump]

The only reason that manufacturers changed from cast in place bearings to slip bearings is cost. For the most part engine bearings are still one of the Babbitt metals skimmed over copper slips. There are some other formulations using aluminum or other metals, but for the most part they're still lead based. This may be changing.

Babbitt can run at ridiculously high speed, for long periods of time, in unfriendly environments. You just need to choose the correct formulation, and surface quality.

Pouring and scraping Babbitt is not difficult or very time consuming. I made tooling, and poured and scraped Babbitt overlays for 19th century lathe main bearings in my old shop. It was a one long-ish day process, and I was relatively unfamiliar, having only seen it done for one of the economy engines on my grandparents' farm. I constantly see online people making a meal out of what was a relatively quick process. There is a tool for scraping Babbitt in Ford car, and other, engines, much like there is a tool for casting the bearings. IMO, the fiddlers with pen knives, are just that.

Eh, we scrape a lot of babbit and it's long and tedious. This was a nice job that only took two days to get right, something about 10 hour days doing nothing but alternating with someone scraping just doesn't sound appealing. For some reason I can't get it to attach the rest of the pictures but this is on a 2 foot long by 42inch diameter mill trunnion.

 

[jubilee]

We poured Babbitt in my Dad’s truck shop in the fifties. Countryside was full of GM Babbitt eating farm trucks. It’s been a long time, but I don’t remember it as that bad and I was a teenager. No 10 hour days of scraping that’s for sure.
I remember an attachment that went on the Sioux valve grinder to do the rods. Think it was homemade.
Can’t remember the spec’s, we oversized, then shimmed out so owner had a lot of future bearing adjustments.
Babbitt very forgiving.

 

[Garcky]

We poured Babbitt in my Dad’s truck shop in the fifties. Countryside was full of GM Babbitt eating farm trucks. It’s been a long time, but I don’t remember it as that bad and I was a teenager. No 10 hour days of scraping that’s for sure.
I remember an attachment that went on the Sioux valve grinder to do the rods. Think it was homemade.
Can’t remember the spec’s, we oversized, then shimmed out so owner had a lot of future bearing adjustments.
Babbitt very forgiving.

It's a lost art now, I'm afraid. Still, a lot of old machine tools have Babbitt bearings. If you keep things oiled, though, they last a very long time.

 

[kaymccampbell]

Eh, we scrape a lot of babbit and it's long and tedious. This was a nice job that only took two days to get right, something about 10 hour days doing nothing but alternating with someone scraping just doesn't sound appealing. For some reason I can't get it to attach the rest of the pictures but this is on a 2 foot long by 42inch diameter mill trunnion.

I understand a job like that taking a long time. It's about 24sqft of bearing surface. A car engine has about as much as your hands can cover. There are specialized tools to make it go fast and good. And they're readily made if you can't buy them.

 

[Wyoming09]

Great video Background music seemed appropriate.

 

[Packard V8]

The babbit expert I mentioned above is a genius scraper, but has the old machinery used to bore the rods and mains to size, thus he doesn't have to scrape. them. He has the crankshaft ground just enough to clean up round, then pours new babbit in the block and rods, then bores the mains and rods to the clearances he's learned work best with today's oils.

jack vines

 

[AldeanFan]

Pretty cool!
I love watching people work who know exactly what they’re doing.
If I tried that it would take twice as long and be half as good. the guy in that video makes it look easy, which it is not.

 

[speed bump]

I understand a job like that taking a long time. It's about 24sqft of bearing surface. A car engine has about as much as your hands can cover. There are specialized tools to make it go fast and good. And they're readily made if you can't buy them.

Are you talking about line boring? For something like a model T I could see that working if your machine work on the crank is good. Personally I would still bore it slightly undersized and scrape because the scapers creates little pockets that retain oil and the process compensates for little imperfections in the crank machining.

 

[Packard V8]

Are you talking about line boring? For something like a model T I could see that working if your machine work on the crank is good. Personally I would still bore it slightly undersized and scrape because the scapers creates little pockets that retain oil and the process compensates for little imperfections in the crank machining.

Yes, if it's your personal project, scraping has some benefits. However, no one charging by the hour and hoping to make a profit would ever choose scraping instead of boring.

BTW, today, if a reground crankshaft has little imperfections, it's the fault of the operator. The micropolished cranks we produce today are literally perfect to the ten-thousandths of an inch.

jack vines

 

[VolvoRyan]

Neat art, and a neat way way of doing things back in the day.

-Ryan

 

[MacMcMacmac]

We have a couple of German built exhausters from the 1930s at work. Their plain Babbitt bearings have been supporting shafts turning over 7000rpm for almost 100 years now.

 

[Packard V8]

We have a couple of German built exhausters from the 1930s at work. Their plain Babbitt bearings have been supporting shafts turning over 7000rpm for almost 100 years now.

For true. A properly engineered and regularly lubricated babbit bearing literally never wears out.

I know of a huge lathe with babbit bearings which has been turning our rail car wheels for more than a hundred years and has never been apart.

jack vines

 

[Eli D]

There’s a mechanic down the road from my shop that’s been pouring babbit in Ts and As for a long time. We’ve been waiting on the right time for him to teach me how, hopefully soon. I don’t know of any others in sw Oregon

 

[MacMcMacmac]

I remember pouring Babbitt bearings back in the 90s for some Gardner Denver Cycloblower labyrinth seals. The labyrinth and oil seal surface were both machined onto the outer diameter of a thick steel collar that slipped on over the shaft. The Babbitt seal was poured into a heavy steel ring that pressed into the end cover of the blower housing.

You burned out the old babbit, cleaned the steel rings with acid flux, tinned the surfaces with some 50/50 solder, put an aluminum metal plug inside the ring, and poured in the metal. The babbitt bars were stamped Linotype 038, so it was probably used for typesetting in earlier days. Once it cooled, the aluminum plug was pressed out on a hydraulic press and the final inner diameter was turned to size on our little Jet lathe. The steel rings were heated by a tiger torch beforehand, and rested on a 2" thick piece of steel round bar faced smooth in a lathe, about 12" in diameter that had also been heated by the tiger torch. The idea was not to chill the babbitt as it was poured in to ensure even coverage all throughout the collar. The babbit was heated in a metal ladle held over a small propane flame. All tools were made in house by the lead tech, who was a very good mechanic.

The blowers were used in soot collection at one of the local power plants. These blowers probably weighed about 700lbs and were very solidly built, pretty much like everything Gardner Denver makes. That didn't prevent a warranty trip out to the plant one day to figure out why one of our rebuilds had seized. When the techs onsite began to remove the piping, my boss said the pipes went "sproing" jumped a gap of about 4", and magically, the blower could be turned by hand.

I also discovered during a trip to a lumber mill that the teeth of the main saw were also held in place with babbit.