Power brown outs ?

[HOTFR8]

Not like a full power failure but when the voltage drops. Has any one experienced one of these and what do you do ?

It has been so HOT here lately I have had power failures but the brown outs as they call them have done more damage. I have lost a TV and possibly a fridge.

I hope Insurance will cover but can any one offer any advise ?

 

[jkeyser14]

Where you are, I'm not sure what insurance will do. The only way to deal with brown outs is to put expensive/critical things like tvs or computers on a battery backup. When the power dips or flickers out and back on, the unit instantly switches to battery backup, keeping your tvs/computers from seeing the change in voltage. The battery backups normally double as surge protectors as well.

 

[Tech Guy]

Like J14 said. Or if you know brownouts are going to happen due to events then go around and unplug the important things so the spike doesnt kill them.

 

[Colin-Roberts]

There is a unit that you can attach to your panel that does the surge protection for the entire house.

Here's two articles for you:
http://www.askthebuilder.com/B235_Whole_House_Surge_Protection.shtml
http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/article/0,,387874,00.html

 

[tfi racing]

Surge protectors only protect against transient voltage spikes(increase)such as system disruptions and lightning,not brownouts(low voltage).They can be a smart addition and "smooth" out the AC somewhat supposedly increasing the life of electronics as well a protecting them from surges,most products only offer one time only protection and may need to be replaced after a serious event.HOTFR8 will have to check into what is available in the Australian/European markets as far as UPS units/products go,they have a different electric system(230V) than what we have in North America.

 

[HOTFR8]

Thanks guys. tfi racing is on the ball. 240v here. I am fortunate enough I have most of my office computer etc on my own UPS come solar system with back up from the mains. The batteries protect all running on them from a brown out and any power surge. I do not run anything without surge protection but sadly surge protectors do not save you from a brown out.

TV and Fridge will be a minor problem. Bio treatment plant ( sewage recycle ) is hard wired so I am not sure what I will do with that as yet. Hopefully Insurance will cover the pump and aerator. As I said my computer etc. is on a Solar system so I can just go 100% solar if I have problems as long as I shut down the computer before dusk. Sadly my mains back up to this system a Deltrans tender is also not working as it should after the brown out. My Solar system was designed to avoid the hassle of brown outs and power failures.

Power Cor ( local power supply ) have told me to call them as soon as I see the signs of another power brown out. Power Cor also advised me you can get an idea as to when a Power surge can happen like when the power comes on after a failure but you do not know when a Brown out will happen. Sometimes Brown outs or voltage drops happen before a power failure.

The temperature here yesterday was a Heatwave 45c ( about 113f ).

 

[sparky1562]

They can be a smart addition and "smooth" out the AC somewhat supposedly increasing the life of electronics as well a protecting them from surges

TVSS devices do not smooth out the AC. They only clamp the voltage and limit the level of a surge. Some of the better ones have what is called sine wave tracking, but what that does is clamp based on where the spike is on the sine wave.

Go to this link if you want to learn more!
http://www.surgesuppression.com/

About the only way to protect your service from a brown out without a large UPS is an undervoltage relay to trip a breaker.

 

[HOTFR8]

TVSS devices do not smooth out the AC. They only clamp the voltage and limit the level of a surge. Some of the better ones have what is called sine wave tracking, but what that does is clamp based on where the spike is on the sine wave.

Go to this link if you want to learn more!
http://www.surgesuppression.com/

About the only way to protect your service from a brown out without a large UPS is an undervoltage relay to trip a breaker.

How many homes and garages would have that ?

 

[sparky1562]

The TVSS? Mine. You get what you pay for. The **** you get at HD is junk and you are wasting money.

The UVR and UPS? none, that was my point.

 

[HOTFR8]

The TVSS? Mine. You get what you pay for. The **** you get at HD is junk and you are wasting money.

The UVR and UPS? none, that was my point.

??? Sorry you will have to explain to this Aussie as what you have and we have may be very different.

On a good note my mains ( Deltrans ) charger for my Solar power has come good after a few days. It appears it wanted to BOOST the batteries after the power was off even when the Solar had them on full charge.

Still have to wait and see what happens with the TV and Fridge. Problem is they may not have been voltage tolerant appliances as most devises should be able to these days tolerate voltage change or that is cope with 110 to 240at least, that is the rule here.

I've learnt a lot in the last few days.

 

[marksatterfield]

I agree about the UPS suggestion. Just a note for the US/120V folks, small uninterruptable power supplies can usually be found on sale for $20~$30. I bought four 325VA UPSs for $15/each at the company formerly known as Circuit City about six months ago.

Electronics are quite suseptable to brownouts, and in particular the surge that hits right as a brownout is being resolved. This includes:

* TV, VCR, answering machine, computers, DVD, satellite receiver, stereo,

Scatter the cheap UPSs around your home on the devices that need it. I've lost a TV, VCR, computer, answering machine, and stereo to power issues.

HOTFR8, I've not heard of a motor (basic fridge) being damaged by a brownout, but the surge following a brownout could do some damage. I have personally not lost equipment from a brownout. A house clamp might help stop that surge, or just buy some surge protectors for $10US or so each for each of the outlets that need protecting.

--Mark

http://www.marksatterfield.com

 

[HOTFR8]

I have surge protectors on all electronic gear. As for the Fridge I believe the automatic defrost section is what is at fault and not the motor. Still awaiting the serviceman to confirm.

The Ultimate solution for me would be to go 100% Solar with wind back up and disconnect from the mains. Not only would I be self suffient but I would not have another brown out or power surge.

I am fortunate my office is Solar as the batteries protect ( work ) as a filter for brown outs and surges.

 

[HOTFR8]

Just to do an Update: After a few phone calls and complaints I hope soon to have a tester placed on my meter by Power Cor who supply my electricity. We will soon see what happens as it will register any brown outs or power surges.

Edited Update: Power Cor have just been here and a tester will go on my meter soon and on the transformer on the street. Told my problem is low voltage or the voltage drops from the supply and not what I have called a brown out.

 

[RPH]

We utilize a voltage sensing control relay in our equipment to prevent major down time.
Grainger's had like units in their catalog. Only problem would be large contactor to handle mains load. Many different types out there.

Spec's for this one.
Relay,Voltage Sensing,SPDT,DIN-Mount
Relay, Voltage Sensing, Contact Form SPDT, Base Type DIN-Mount, Number of Contacts 1, Contact Amp Rating 15 R, Input Voltage 240VAC, Power Rating 1.2 VA, Trip Delay 0.1s-10s Sec., Pick Up Range 160-276VAC, Drop-Out Range 30-99, Voltage Unbalance 99 %
Grainger Item # 1EJF2
Price (ea.) $95.85
Brand DAYTON
Mfr. Model # 1EJF2
Ship Qty. 1
Sell Qty. (Will-Call) 1
Ship Weight (lbs.) 0.15
Usually Ships Today
Catalog Page No. 292

Price shown may not reflect your price. Log in or register.




Additional Info Single-Phase Voltage Sensing Relays
Solid-state sensor works as an overvoltage or undervoltage detecting relay to prevent equipment burnout and offer brownout protection.
UL Recognized.
Field adjustable for pull-up and dropout
LED status indicators
0
to 10-sec. activation delay
Tech Specs
Item: Relay
Type: Voltage Sensing
Contact Form: SPDT
Base Type: DIN-Mount
Number of Contacts: 1
Contact Amp Rating (Resistive): 15
Input Voltage: 240VAC
Power Rating (VA): 1.2
Trip Delay (Sec.): 0.1s-10s
Pick Up Range: 160 to 276VAC
Drop-Out Range: 30 to 99%
Voltage Unbalance (%): 99

Notes & Restrictions
There are currently no notes or restrictions for this item.
MSDS
This item does not require a Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS).
Required Accessories
There are currently no required accessories for this item. Optional Accessories
Channel,35mm Din Rail

Item #: 5B357
Brand: SQUARE D
Usually Ships: Today
Price (ea): $21.97

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alternate Products There are currently no alternate products for this item. Repair Parts A Repair Part may be available for this item. Visit our Repair Parts Center or contact your local branch for more information.

 

[HOTFR8]

Thanks RPH. I doubt that would work on the Australian power system.

Will have the power cor testers in place next week and most likely the transformer on the pole will be upgraded.

 

[Stuart in MN]

The device RPH mentioned would probably work in your situation, it's designed for 240vac. However, it's from a US supply house named Graingers; I would imagine there's a similar kind of company n Australia.

The idea is that if it senses the supply voltage dropping below some set level, it opens a relay that is then wired to your device (refrigerator, wastewater treatment system) to shut it off. You'd probably have it wired to a contactor, that would disconnect power to the device. This is pretty straightforward stuff for an electrician to do.

Hopefully the power company will find and fix the problem, so you don't have to mess around with it.

 

[HOTFR8]

Well no it will not work as all faults now appear to be in or part of the transformer on the pole in the street. Once we know for sure I believe the transformer will be upgraded.

 

[ironpusher]

If it is the transformer the problem will be isolated to only the customers that are connected to the same transformer. With heat like that the resistivity of the distrobution wires is increased dramatically. The best thing to do is to be completely isolated from your grid during these times of brown-outs, whatever the choice may be (even if its just manually switching your main to off.) This problem is not only because of the heat, the actual substation that your distrobution circuit is off of is clearly not setup for this kind of demand (air conditioners, fans, any cooling.) Being isolated from the grid helps to rectify the problem faster also as you are not adding to this increased demand. The power company should install either some larger station transformers, or some capacitors to increase and purify overhead line voltage. Whatever they are telling you on the phone is probably some BS that has nothing to do with the real problem, its just to get you off the phone so they can answer more customer calls. GET OFF THE GRID...

When you have a brown out, then rolling black outs the company is purposely cutting high demand circuits to take the strain off of the system. This is so that there is no serious damage to the major equipment in the stations (creating MAJOR problems.) Hey lower voltage isnt as nasty as high voltage situations (Fires, explosions, immediate and permanent damage to personal equipment.) But for certain devices it does wreak havoc.

High demand hours are typically morning before work starts 0600-0900, and then when people get home and are all turning on equipment at the same times 1500-1700...

Understanding these problems will hopefully help with the stresses of dealing with the power company, I KNOW THEY CAN BE A PAIN, Ha I work for them.

 

[HOTFR8]

Due to Fires I expect not much will happen. The local guys ( Power Cor Workers ) think the problem will be the transformer on the pole is out of date or needs an update.

 

[rinny_tin_tin]

The TVSS? Mine. You get what you pay for. The **** you get at HD is junk and you are wasting money.

The UVR and UPS? none, that was my point.

Actually, any of the consumer TVSS devices are pieces of **** - they clamp relatively mild steep wave front pulses, and the only ones that UL will list are those that turn on at 330 V. They can't suppress a spike of any significance, and when such a spike does occur, they tend to fail to short--ergo, why they *now* have series fuse with the TVSS component (typically an MOV). Any notion that such devices can suppress lightning indicates severe substance abuse (smoking crack) In th epast, fires frequently resulted as MOVs exhibiting HiZ shorts turn cherry red and ignites the adjacent plastic housing. The HiZ short is not enough to blow the fuse or trip the frequently included/integral 15A OCP device in power strip like you may have underneath your desk (temporary power tap) If you are going to use TVSS type power strips, then those enclosed in metal are obviously preferred.


The primary damage mechanism of brown outs is increased current. Brown outs are reduced voltage, typically >20%, and since power is the volt-amp product, reduced voltage necessarily means increased amps. Typically, the system goes into runaway - as increased amps results in increased I^2R heating, thus reducing the voltage even further. The predominant safeguard for brownouts are closed-transition UPS, and MG sets. Low Voltage Release/Effect devices (LVR/LVRE) are frequently used to safeguard the larger motors.

Since the power company says that they have nor brownout incidence, then it is plausible that the utility transformer is problematic. Simply connect a voltmeter across the line and read the value. It is not likely that the problem is transient as the voltage must be reduced for a long time for damage to occur. Another possibility is dirty power, or power contaminated with odd harmonics, in particular, the 3rd and 5th. This is frequently detected/confirmed by monitoring neutral currents.

 

[HOTFR8]

For those that have commented on this topic. Due to the fires in my state there has been some delay. Today the Power Company have fitted a devise to check what is going on and at this point in time it appears what is happening is I am getting more power than I am meant to. Instead of the power fadeing out it appears to be boosted higher than what I am meant to get.

Tester system will be fitted for a week so will see what happens after that.

 

[HOTFR8]

Test system got taken off the other day. I am still waiting for some feed back as to what is causing the problem.

 

[HOTFR8]

Just to update again: Appears my voltage coming in from the street has been with great variation. Yet to see how they fix the problem but I am told there is a problem and they intend to fix it. Any one else heard of thei problem where the power supply varies ???

 

[sparky1562]

If your on the end of a long distribution line, voltage drop can be a problem when the load on it goes up. See it all the time out in the country where the lines have not been upgraded in a long time, but the load has gone way up.

Sustained low voltage or high voltage is also damaging. Let us know what they report back.

 

[Fiberglass Fred]

Just to update again: Appears my voltage coming in from the street has been with great variation. Yet to see how they fix the problem but I am told there is a problem and they intend to fix it. Any one else heard of thei problem where the power supply varies ???

I had that problem off and on for the first 2 years I lived in my house. It varied so much that lights would often flicker, and I went through light bulbs very fast.

I had the power company come out and check the drop. They replaced the crimped connectors where the drop meets the wires coming out of my weatherhead. That's all it took. No problems since.

If you AND your neighbors are all having the problem, then it's probably something like that down the line from you (good luck having them find it soon). If you're the only one having the issue, then you've probably got a problem with your drop, very similar to what I had.

Also- Power companies are usually fairly responsive to service requests. But if they aren't responding in a timely manner, call back and tell them you think you may have seen a spark, and you'll see someone within the hour.

 

[HOTFR8]

I had that problem off and on for the first 2 years I lived in my house. It varied so much that lights would often flicker, and I went through light bulbs very fast.

I had the power company come out and check the drop. They replaced the crimped connectors where the drop meets the wires coming out of my weatherhead. That's all it took. No problems since.

If you AND your neighbors are all having the problem, then it's probably something like that down the line from you (good luck having them find it soon). If you're the only one having the issue, then you've probably got a problem with your drop, very similar to what I had.

Also- Power companies are usually fairly responsive to service requests. But if they aren't responding in a timely manner, call back and tell them you think you may have seen a spark, and you'll see someone within the hour.

I have had the Power Supplier repair crew here yesterday and I believe they have done just as you suggested. Just have to see what happens now. Hopefully all fixed.

If your on the end of a long distribution line, voltage drop can be a problem when the load on it goes up. See it all the time out in the country where the lines have not been upgraded in a long time, but the load has gone way up.

Sustained low voltage or high voltage is also damaging. Let us know what they report back.

Some years ago I was on the end of the line an upgrade changed that when I had simialr problems back then. Hopefully it is fixed now but I will post again if I don not have the results I wanted.

 

[HOTFR8]

I finaly have a solution to this and plan to go 100% Solar power.
I will remain connected to the mains and will add about eight Solar panels with an invertor charger that will allow me to run off the Solar and back feed power into the mains. If need be the system will allow me to draw on the mains on bad days. The invertor will act as a filter system given my power input exceeded what I should have had coming in from the power feed. A Govt rebate here for those that have Solar power added to my decision to do this.

Will update as I progress.

 

[nadogail]

I am glad to hear that you have a solution to the problem with the "Brown Outs". Does this mean you will not be using a diesel plant? Also, will you be using a synchronus inverter that needs an input from the grid befor it will provide AC from the output of your solar panels. If you are using a synchronus inverter, as I understand them, you will have no power if the grid goes down.

There is a "work around" to replace a missing signal from the grid to excite your synchronus inverter. Using a "work around" is potentialy dangerous unless you disconnect your system from the grid before starting the "work around" without a disconnect, you will be back feeding the grid and putting linemen doing repairs in danger.

 

[HOTFR8]

Well I have a solution. What I had was not really a brown out but what I was experiencing was excess power coming in. More power than my appliances could deal with in some cases.

Still considering something in the lines of a Diesel gen as that will be for the bad days to run my water pumps etc. in case of fire. I may even add a Wind gen setup in addition to the Solar panels.

As for the feed back system, it is very new. Please do not ask me to go into details as I have asked an expert to install it for me. The Feed back to the mains runs my meter backwards so if I generate enough power and more than I can use I then get credit on my mains supply with the excess power I feed back into the grid. If the mains shut down I still have power but the invertor shuts off any power from going back into the grid -main supply for just the safety reason you stated with linesman.

My current (small) solar system will stay in place but overall I should be 100% solar / wind power and get credit for the power I generate in the long term.

 

[HOTFR8]

A little slow on the update here..... In the last week I added 12 Solar Panels.

A row of 6 and 6 behind them. The other two Solar panels (in the right of picture) still run my Computer office etc. via a 12 volt sytem and now get backed up by the new 48 volt system.

At the moment the new system is not finished but will be soon. The system is a new design that has two 48 Volt batteries that charge from the mains or the Solar to supply the house and my works. If the power is out from the mains I can be running on Solar or Battery. The system is so designed that if I generate enough power it feeds back into the mains giving me credit for the power I generate.

This is the brains of the whole system. It is a battery charger / invertor / grid connector.

Now if my power is out I have no heating or hot plate and oven other wise I have all I need to happily not worry about the power problems I had before or the power being off. If the power goes off here it is usualy in the summer so my cooling keeps working.

I am still thinking about a Diesel Gen set but no rush now.

 

[Falcon67]

That's a nice setup. If I didn't think we were going to have to replace our HVAC system, I'd do a re-fi on the house to go solar. Might still be able to piece-meal a system - the $1500 HVAC tax incentive goes away at the end of 2010 but the 30% no limit tax rebate for alternative energy systems is available until 2016.

 

[D KRAGER]

Just had a brown out this past week at work. It lasted over an hour, luckily I caught it pretty quick and killed the main in the office. Only lost 1 computer (no records luckily). But did loose 3 fan motors that were not on magnetic starters. Could have been a lot worse if we had more equipment running.

 

[HOTFR8]

If you read back through the posts you will see my problem was not really brown outs ( voltage dropping ) but more of voltage intollerance. I had to replace the Fridge / Freezer in the house recently as the auto defrost failed due to this because the power fluctated and after having the power company test for about the 6th time we found out the voltage varied from 210 to 260 where it should be more around the 240Volts. This system will stop this and if it happens again it disconnects from the grid mains until the power supply is again stable. In effect I have an inteligent UPS system now.

 

[HOTFR8]

Finished the install now and the Invertor has been programmed. Just have to wait for the power company to install a new meter so I can get credits for the power I put back into the grid.

Have had some good days and I can now inform all the problems I had will no longer be an issue with voltage intolerance etc. I can also inform you the whole property (House & my Works ) happily runs well on Solar and still feeds power back into the grid.

 

[HOTFR8]

Frequency power modulation.

With the new system now in I can report that my problem is power frequency problems. My Solar system shut down the other night due to this and had problems reconnecting to the grid.

 

[HOTFR8]

BUMP TOPIC.........Any one experience this type of problem ? Power frequency here should be 50hz but it is not. Voltage also varies from 210 to 250 but that is ok.

 

[HOTFR8]

Problem has been solved. Happily running on Solar Power now and feeding power back to the grid. Do not ask me to explain as all I can say it was not what we expected.