Power for future welder

[nwav8tor]

Planning my new subpanel for my attached garage "remodel." It will be used to restore a car. I'm not a welder but may need to eventually buy a welder and use some for my project. In anticipation of that, I want to add a circuit for a welder but am unsure of how big to go.

What would you all recommend, a 30A double pole C/B and 30A welder outlet or should I upsize to 50A? What would a "beginner" / "light use" welder require?

The welder outlet will probably be within 6 feet of the new subpanel.

The subpanel itself will be a 125A main lug right next to the existing 200A main breaker panel for the house. The sub will be powered using somewhere between a 60A DP breaker up to a 100A DP breaker depending on what I can find locally. Other than the welder, other circuits from the new subpanel will be two 15A light circuits, a 15A circuit for the Big Maxx heater, 20A circuit for the compressor, and one or two other 20A circuits for additional power outlets around the garage.

Thanks for your comments,
Paul

 

[Gregishome]

Best welder fo car restoration is a MIG due to the necessity to weld the thinner body panels. You can get by with a 120 volt MIG for panel work but I would go with a 220 volt mig in case there is some 3/8 inch + metal somewhere in the future to weld. 50 amp circuit covers all bases. jmo

 

[fastrucken1]

I would make sure that you run a neutral with the 50 amp circuit. That way your always covered. That way if you needed to, you could make an adapter cord and have 2 high amperage 120v circuits too.

 

[sberry]

That just adds to the confusion and buggering circuits from this is not a good idea anyway. An 8 wire 50A to a 6-50-R covers any welder that comes with factory 50A plug on it. Smaller migs, the 200 compact class which are ideal for this type of work run from a 10/30 just fine. They also use 6-50 hardware.

 

[srmofo]

Even my miller diversion tig runs uses a 6-50R. Its on a 30 amp breaker but still uses the 6-50R. My hobart MVP210 also uses that plug and so far has never tripped the 30 amp breaker

I switched out the plug on my tablesaw and compressor to the 6-50P so I can use it all in any outlet. With it all being 30 amp, Ive also been able to afford placing more receptacles.

I would still like a 50amp plug near the panel but Im waiting till I have a need for it.

 

[Aceman]

50 amp breaker with 8-2 NM to a 6-50R recep. Done deal.

 

[frank_c]

I just ran 10/3 to a 6-50R for my new Hobart Handler 190, on a 30 amp breaker.

 

[theoldwizard1]

50 amp breaker with 8-2 NM to a 6-50R recep. Done deal.

Yep.

If you buy a lighter welder, just change the plug.

 

[Ryf]

I would go with 110v 140 amp welder for most auto work. I know ALOT of people who have these and do frames to etc. I bought a 220v hobart 190amp welder because I do alot of 1/4" steel... most cars have very little 1/4" steel, so no issue for you. they do 3/16" single pass well and that wil cover most anything you can do on a car, unless your building something you plan to get airborn. if I were you and car stuff was it, I'd run a dedicated 110v 20/30amp service 20 amp is fine for most welders, but a dual voltage plasma cutter can get by on 20 or 30 amp 110v service.. this would be ideal for auto work. my brother in law has this setup in his shop and all he has 220 for is the compressor, makes everything very portable since he has lots of 110 outlets, and only 2 or 3 outlets per circuit, and dedicated lines on anything left plugged in. works out great.

for my shop I ran a 60amp sub panel and have all the power I need! my "if its ever added detached shop" will have 100 amp though, since its cheaper to run aluminum that far

 

[nwav8tor]

I would make sure that you run a neutral with the 50 amp circuit. That way your always covered. That way if you needed to, you could make an adapter cord and have 2 high amperage 120v circuits too.

I was planning to run a single neutral to the box and just cap it off. That way I could have 110V available as a future option for that particular outlet box location.

If I wanted TWO 110V circuits like you pointed out, wouldn't I need two neutrals, one for each circuit, or could a single neutral handle both?

Paul

 

[nwav8tor]

I would go with 110v 140 amp welder for most auto work. I know ALOT of people who have these and do frames to etc. I bought a 220v hobart 190amp welder because I do alot of 1/4" steel... most cars have very little 1/4" steel, so no issue for you. they do 3/16" single pass well and that wil cover most anything you can do on a car, unless your building something you plan to get airborn. if I were you and car stuff was it, I'd run a dedicated 110v 20/30amp service 20 amp is fine for most welders, but a dual voltage plasma cutter can get by on 20 or 30 amp 110v service.. this would be ideal for auto work. my brother in law has this setup in his shop and all he has 220 for is the compressor, makes everything very portable since he has lots of 110 outlets, and only 2 or 3 outlets per circuit, and dedicated lines on anything left plugged in. works out great.

for my shop I ran a 60amp sub panel and have all the power I need! my "if its ever added detached shop" will have 100 amp though, since its cheaper to run aluminum that far

Thanks for all insight. My project car is a '71 Corvette, so I hope there won't be a need for much welding. However, since I'm a novice and am undecided just how I want to proceed, I'll keep my options open.

I think I'll go with both approaches. I'll put in a 220V 50A with 8/3 to a 6-50R so 220V power will be available for any future welder or bigger compressor (present comp is 110V). I'll have the neutral in case I need it for an oven that requires a 110V input in case I ever want to try powdercoating some parts. I'll also add a dedicated 30A 10/2 outlet for a smaller welder and/or other 110V uses.

This brings up another question: What kind of recepticle should I use on a 30A 10/2 circuit? I've seen 15A and 20A recepticles at the box stores - are there 30A recepticles?

Thanks,
Paul

 

[theoldwizard1]

I was planning to run a single neutral to the box and just cap it off. That way I could have 110V available as a future option for that particular outlet box location.

If I wanted TWO 110V circuits like you pointed out, wouldn't I need two neutrals, ...

No, but you do need a 4th wire for ground if the sub-panel is coming off of the house main panel.

 

[sberry]

This thread is spinning off. These circuits cannot be split for 120 without additional over current protection. I doubt a powder coat oven requires a N. Although they make welders to run on 120V it is really a pathetic power supply for welding in most cases, a 230 machine is so far superior, almost twice as good and these welders do not come with different plug, they come with 6-50 and are designed to be able to be used on circuits to 50A.

 

[Ryf]

Thanks for all insight. My project car is a '71 Corvette, so I hope there won't be a need for much welding. However, since I'm a novice and am undecided just how I want to proceed, I'll keep my options open.

I think I'll go with both approaches. I'll put in a 220V 50A with 8/3 to a 6-50R so 220V power will be available for any future welder or bigger compressor (present comp is 110V). I'll have the neutral in case I need it for an oven that requires a 110V input in case I ever want to try powdercoating some parts. I'll also add a dedicated 30A 10/2 outlet for a smaller welder and/or other 110V uses.

This brings up another question: What kind of recepticle should I use on a 30A 10/2 circuit? I've seen 15A and 20A recepticles at the box stores - are there 30A recepticles?

Thanks,
Paul

the plasma cutter has a collection of cables for different plugs, the thirty amp looks like a RV twistlock if I had to guess? I dont blame you for wanting to go bigger, just didn't want you to spend your way into something you didn't need! a 71 surely wouldn't need much lol

This thread is spinning off. These circuits cannot be split for 120 without additional over current protection. I doubt a powder coat oven requires a N. Although they make welders to run on 120V it is really a pathetic power supply for welding in most cases, a 230 machine is so far superior, almost twice as good and these welders do not come with different plug, they come with 6-50 and are designed to be able to be used on circuits to 50A.

There are ALOT of small welders in use for body work and automotive repair, they are lighter, smaller more agile torches, more maneuverable around the shops due to power outlet requirements... in general if your going to go at welding as a hobby I agree, the 220v is the way to go, but if your hobby is cars and not welding, why waste the money? a hobart/miller/lincoln 140 with gas will do everything you need on a car. I got my 110v used and it served me for YEARS while I learned and decided if I wanted more. your statement is fine as an opinion, but its not a fact.

 

[sberry]

I got my 110v used and it served me for YEARS while I learned and decided if I wanted more. your statement is fine as an opinion, but its not a fact.

Actually is pretty much is a fact. The opinion is above and I want to clarify it a bit. (I pick on one thread a day, this number is up). First, your experience appears to be fairly limited to one machine and most likely self learned, this is not a bad thing but its just that. I read threads also where posters feel because they started somewhere back in the day everyone needs to learn this and that first, needs a SAM400 like they used on a pipeline and this is far from the case also, I try not to let my own experience get in the way of decent advice for lack of better wording.

The ease of plugging these 120V in to any outlet has its pluses but also allows for use where circuits are less than ideal, going up a class just eliminates this. One can only get so many watts from this outlet. I agree there are places suitable for these but for couple hundred more dollar one gets twice the machine which can do everything the smaller one can and some it cant.

This area of welding equipment is so extremely competitive there has been a great rise in the quality of machines, some of the compacts have about as good an arc as near any including machines costing considerably more, some with multiple cost factors. A lot of pressure and competition at this level, the designers have put this crowds picture up as a poster child for this class of machine. The electric service demands are light, the performance is fantastic for the most part. I am not a fan of every bell and whistle though, personally like a tapped machine, so easy to reset once a guy has it pegged and simple to set. The work fine with 023 but love 030 which gives a little range to thickness that can be welded, there other uses for these besides a single car project which he will find once he has it operational.

There are others which are just as good but if I was going to recommend one for a personal friend I would have a hard time being pushed off a Hobart 190, both for cost and quality and its sized right for the hobby crowd,,, a lot of my work (size type) would fall in to this category but its not a hobby for me.

A 120 unit is better than no machine but for 1/3 more money to get twice the machine is great pot odds and it will get used at some point, good reason you do not see these on the used market, people that buy them keep them a long time. Craig's list and ebay full of 120 for sale.

 

[sberry]

The original question was a circuit. Ace hit it on the head if you want simple. But back to 120 machines. There is only so much to wring out of common general circuit, they build the machine right up to that. In theory a guy could run it above its rated output with a heavier breaker and or wire for short time and be safe but at that point you are ready for a larger unit, pretty much anything above sheet metal, auto body rust outs. Not that it cant be done but the next class of machine is almost 24A @ 230, over twice the available power while the first has about as much poop as a daughters heavy duty hair dryer. You can make welds with it, no doubt about it but its not the same as being able to blast it hot and toasty vs basically gob it on at low power.

Even light work, often short welds my 175 rides on high 90% of the time and with a couple clicks down for the occasions I need to do some critical on light sheet etc. As an operator almost don't have to pay attn, got it cranked to the point of the worry of melting thru vs trying to melt. A lot of the home brew crowd is running downhill, additional power helps a lot.

 

[1967marti]

For my PowerMig 140 I have a 20 amp breaker tied to a 20amp outlet that is used ONLY for that welder or any other big-boy toys that will pull allot of juice.

I would also recommend putting in a 50 amp (2-pole) breaker that leads to a 50amp outlet. Any TIG or MIG welder over 150ish amps will want to have 2 phase and/or a bigger breaker than your normal 2-pole 20Amp. A good rule of thumb is 1 Amp for every .001 inch of metal to be welded. An old car (1960’s early 70’s mustang, etc) will have almost no metal over 1/8 inch, except the shock towers and the leaf spring perches, but you can get by with pre-heating with a torch and multiple passes on those if needed.

Always buy a bigger welder than you think you need. I love my 140 to death and it’s great for small sheet-metal work in tight spaces but I’m looking to get a PowerMig 250 or 275 sometime soon as they can do small to large items (I sold my old 300 Amp MIG and regret it every day).

I wouldn't worry about duty cycle too much, for hobby to semi-pro use you will almost never run into a duty cycle issue, I have tripped the breaker on a welder only once in over 13 years of welding. Most of your welds are going to be far less than 10 inches long and if you are using the proper heat and feed settings (on a MIG) you will do an inch in around 5-6 seconds, so you can see you will not have the welder running continuously for more than 2-3 min on average.

Also you have not mentioned what type of welders you are looking at getting.... Inverter?? Transformer??
With an inverter based welder you will need far less of a breaker/feed combo than that of a transformer based welder. In the long run (for hobby use) the price for a inverter based machine over a transformer unit is not worth it in electrical cost savings, BUT if you can get by with running a 50 amp service to your garage instead of 100 or 200 because you are using an inverter welder you might come out onto because of the cost saving of not having to use larger gauge copper cable and bigger breakers.
Also inverter welders are great space savers compared to their transformer based older brothers…

Hope this helps,

- Marti

 

[ford33]

This is a very interesting thread for me. I am in the same situation as Paul(NWAV8tor) about installing a suitable welding electrical circuit.

I start a 16 week long community college welding class this Saturday. I don't own a welder but will know more about what type welder to purchase in about 4 months. Then I can look back on this thread and make a better decision regarding the electrical service.

Thanks to all for your input. There's a lot of smart people on this forum.

 

[1967marti]

I think the biggest issue is that MOST people will outgrow their first welder. So if you build your garage/shop with just enough power for your first welder you will be shooting yourself in the foot from the start. I would say that a 60-80 amp drop for a welder would be a good lifetime investment for the shop. If a welder says 50 amp pull for it's max output that meants it will trip a 50 amp breaker (unless it is a slow-blow type). Always go bigger and you wont be sorry.

 

[sberry]

The small machines 200A compact class feeders are limited to a 50A breaker, the wire (cord) and some of the internals are designed specifically for this kind of circuit. Unless there is a specific need, specialized machine which should have its own tailor made circuit limit general welder circuits to 50A.

 

[PT Doc]

Even my miller diversion tig runs uses a 6-50R. Its on a 30 amp breaker but still uses the 6-50R. My hobart MVP210 also uses that plug and so far has never tripped the 30 amp breaker

I switched out the plug on my tablesaw and compressor to the 6-50P so I can use it all in any outlet. With it all being 30 amp, Ive also been able to afford placing more receptacles.

I would still like a 50amp plug near the panel but Im waiting till I have a need for it.

What's the hp on the compressor?

 

[mothgrey]

I would go with 110v 140 amp welder for most auto work. I know ALOT of people who have these and do frames to etc. I bought a 220v hobart 190amp welder because I do alot of 1/4" steel... most cars have very little 1/4" steel, so no issue for you. they do 3/16" single pass well and that wil cover most anything you can do on a car, unless your building something you plan to get airborn. if I were you and car stuff was it, I'd run a dedicated 110v 20/30amp service 20 amp is fine for most welders, but a dual voltage plasma cutter can get by on 20 or 30 amp 110v service.. this would be ideal for auto work. my brother in law has this setup in his shop and all he has 220 for is the compressor, makes everything very portable since he has lots of 110 outlets, and only 2 or 3 outlets per circuit, and dedicated lines on anything left plugged in. works out great.

for my shop I ran a 60amp sub panel and have all the power I need! my "if its ever added detached shop" will have 100 amp though, since its cheaper to run aluminum that far

I have the Hobart 140 110v also have a dedicated 20 Amp outlet never have poped the breaker. 30 would work also.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I was planning to run a single neutral to the box and just cap it off. That way I could have 110V available as a future option for that particular outlet box location.

If I wanted TWO 110V circuits like you pointed out, wouldn't I need two neutrals, one for each circuit, or could a single neutral handle both?

Paul

You only need 1 neutral as long as the 2 hot legs come from opposite busses. Otherwise, you will overload the neutral wire! This is accomplished with a double pole breaker with a common handle tie!

 

[Wholesum]

A MIG welder needs a lot more power for a given thickness of material. My 130 amp 220v MIG welder is only good up to 3/16" with flux wire, and with the MIG setup I am limited to 16 gauge. For thicker materials I either use the oxy welder or go to a friends shop where he has a 250 amp welder.

The 130 amp welder needs a 30 amp 240v connection to power it. If I had it to do over again I would have put in a 50 amp circuit and a 180 amp welder. Important to check the actual specs in the manual. My Lincoln welder is supposedly a 155 amp welder but it actually puts out a maximum of 130 amps.

With a car the metal thicknesses around the frame are such I would not even go with a MIG setup but use a DC stick welder. I know better than to do this type of welding myself and go to a pro for this type of welding.

 

[sberry]

A 200 class compact that runs on 30A service will do anything on a car including frame work. I am not familiar with every Lincoln model but what is the input at rated on the 155? 50A is fine for the smaller machines but is only needed above the 210 compacts and common stick welders.