2level
Well-known member
In that case, the cost to heat your garage will probably be under $500/yr. using a basic electric heater, or under $250/yr. if using an electric PTAC heat pump.
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Power...how much do I really need
- Thread starter 3rdgendslmech
- Start date
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
In that case, the cost to heat your garage will probably be under $500/yr. using a basic electric heater, or under $250/yr. if using an electric PTAC heat pump.
PTAC heat pumps are notoriously INEFFICIENT and usually have an electric resistance heat strip for cold weather.
They are cheap and easy to install, but the cost of operation will kill you.
Notgrownup
Well-known member
My PTAC works great for my sunroom. If I was using it to permanently heat or cool I would’ve got a mini split.
I am planning for heat n cooling for my 24x24 shop and I am not sure what I want to use... budget vs efficiency...dilemma...
I am planning for heat n cooling for my 24x24 shop and I am not sure what I want to use... budget vs efficiency...dilemma...
n20junkie
Well-known member
I have a big *** welder, with a 42 slot panel with 150 amps feeding it off the houses panel.
My last house had 100 amps total, and I never had an issue powering the house and garage off lf thay.
But being that I was doing the work on my new shop, I went with the bigger service line.
You can run as big of a garage panel as you want if it's a sub panel (as long as your service feed wire is within the range on the connection lugs). The main breaker on that garage sub panel is just a disconnect if it's a subpanel fed from a breaker.
My last house had 100 amps total, and I never had an issue powering the house and garage off lf thay.
But being that I was doing the work on my new shop, I went with the bigger service line.
You can run as big of a garage panel as you want if it's a sub panel (as long as your service feed wire is within the range on the connection lugs). The main breaker on that garage sub panel is just a disconnect if it's a subpanel fed from a breaker.
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2level
Well-known member
PTAC heat pumps are notoriously INEFFICIENT and usually have an electric resistance heat strip for cold weather.
They are cheap and easy to install, but the cost of operation will kill you.
The cost of operation will kill you??? Wrong, wizzy. There are millions in use today because they operate at about half the consumption rate of standard electric resistance heaters.
I wired the ones in my shop (thru water heater timers) to keep things above freezing, and to cycle the air; acting as a dehumidifier. There is a manual override to shut off the resistance heat strip on my PTAC heat pumps. Estimated cost per year for electricity is $150-$200 to heat and dehumidify.
Falcon67
Well-known member
Lol, I forgot to add my 140A Hobart welder to the list. And a 30A run to the race trailer RV plug. My 20 slot is about maxed.
The_Auto_Tech
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2017
- Messages
- 180
Definitely depends on your plans. Biggest draw is gonna be using a welder. If you don't have that and aren't using electric heat you could easily get away with 30 amp even. I've got 40 amp going to my garage with electric heat, compressor, lights, deep freeze, etc. and have never popped the 40 amp. I don't weld, so for me it's fine. But if you're putting in new, it's worth the extra couple hundred bucks for the 100amp.
The Eaton BR line is the successor to Bryant panels and breakers.
Entry level cheap breakers.
Some electricians may try and sell you on an upgraded panel such as an Eaton CH with copper bus. But if your BR is in decent shape, why upgrade? Breakers are readily available.
The BR line was advertised as "Engineered Value" which translates as cheap, every type of product has to have someone at the bottom of the heap, & the BR line is it. Which is why I call them Zinsco II, besides the BR line used to have Zinsco main breakers* in the 150-225A loadcenters, When Eaton bought the Westinghouse electrical div., they changed the 150-225A mains to the current design.
As much as I hate the BR panels & breakers,the OP having a Bryant panel means I would suggest they use a BR panel as a sub.
*The Zinsco style mains were during the time that Westinghouse owned Challenger (Zinsco / Sylvania's successor) & the BR,Westinghouse & Challenger panels were the same & the Challenger breakers were rebranded Bryant/ Westinghouse models, Siemens did the same with Siemens QP & Murray MP,breakers, both are ITE QP designs.
Falcon67
Well-known member
I can add this - did a test in the old shop. Heater, compressor, 12K BTU AC unit, drill press, mill, small lathe (only one at that time), 14 T12 dual bulb 4' lights all running at the same time. The clamp meter read 46 amps.
Buy a panel with at LEAST 20 spots, 24~30 better. If I add any more, I'll have to move plug circuits to tandems.
Buy a panel with at LEAST 20 spots, 24~30 better. If I add any more, I'll have to move plug circuits to tandems.
A Air compressor should be set up on a 20-30 amp dedicated circuit.
A welder should be set up on a 40 amp dedicated circuit.
Lighting should be set up on a 15 amp dedicated circuit.
A 5000 W electric heater should be on a 30 amp dedicated circuit. But, this could be on your welding plug outlet, interchangeable.
Shop your size 24×36 should have a minimum of a split 15, for outlets and garage door opener‘s.
A very good price point would be feeding 90A to your shop. And 100 A sub panels are fairly cheap. How far of a run, is your shop from the main panel?
A welder should be set up on a 40 amp dedicated circuit.
Lighting should be set up on a 15 amp dedicated circuit.
A 5000 W electric heater should be on a 30 amp dedicated circuit. But, this could be on your welding plug outlet, interchangeable.
Shop your size 24×36 should have a minimum of a split 15, for outlets and garage door opener‘s.
A very good price point would be feeding 90A to your shop. And 100 A sub panels are fairly cheap. How far of a run, is your shop from the main panel?
that is a pretty big sub panel. Normally I would suggest at 12 to 20. But heck, the more the merrier. There’s always room for expansion.I can add this - did a test in the old shop. Heater, compressor, 12K BTU AC unit, drill press, mill, small lathe (only one at that time), 14 T12 dual bulb 4' lights all running at the same time. The clamp meter read 46 amps.
Buy a panel with at LEAST 20 spots, 24~30 better. If I add any more, I'll have to move plug circuits to tandems.
sberry
Banned
Our local lumber yard sells that BR Eaton ****. He can't get it thru his head that no one wants it. His logic,,,, we don't sell that much electric. We'll no ****.
sberry
Banned
I own 25, maybe 30 panels. I started with QO. I have a couple CH in the bunch but if I was starting over would likely use Homeline. Not that it's that good but very popular and a lot cheaper.
If I was an executive and was going to introduce a new product line would find the guys who did that. Challenger had the mobile home/modular market and a foot in the box stores. They had a good foothold in the service upgrade biz too, changed the cost quite a bit for materials on quoted jobs. It could be as much as a couple hundred on a simple 100A service and a lot of people wouldn't know the difference or care.
If I was an executive and was going to introduce a new product line would find the guys who did that. Challenger had the mobile home/modular market and a foot in the box stores. They had a good foothold in the service upgrade biz too, changed the cost quite a bit for materials on quoted jobs. It could be as much as a couple hundred on a simple 100A service and a lot of people wouldn't know the difference or care.
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I own 25, maybe 30 panels. I started with QO. I have a couple CH in the bunch but if I was starting over would likely use Homeline. Not that it's that good but very popular and a lot cheaper.
If I was an executive and was going to introduce a new product line would find the guys who did that. Challenger had the mobile home/modular market and a foot in the box stores. They had a good foothold in the service upgrade biz too, changed the cost quite a bit for materials on quoted jobs. It could be as much as a couple hundred on a simple 100A service and a lot of people wouldn't know the difference or care.
I'm starting to think the Cutler Hammer CH is about the best stab-in panel out there. Seems like the breaker to bus connection is usually the culprit with many issues. Even if it doesn't damage the buss, the connection can become loose making the breaker run hot and eventually fail. The CH is probably the most robust unless you get into bolt in stuff ($). But it's hard to say for sure, not a lot of CH stuff installed around here since few suppliers deal in it.
But for most user's any panel will do a fine job. It's usually 60A+ circuits that are loaded for hours or days at a time that cause issues with cheaper panels.
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rburke65
Well-known member
Go with the 100 Amp feed. You don't have to use it all but you'll have it.
sberry
Banned
I have seen a couple burned busses in other people's panels. I have had only one myself and it was on a 40 to a walkin cooler with a run of about 26 or so. I am with the opinion most of this listed equipment is fine. I have very few circuits that see much real load for any amount of time and lots of diy wiring jobs go way above and beyond being sufficient. Closest I have to that would be portable heater on a 20 and they are under 1500 watt, maybe one larger air con about the same size. Welding is so intermittent. Many circuits a couple amps, a couple for 500 watt lights on occasion. Biggest load I can think of is a chop saw but it's limited in time and not close to the buss rating. Got several with ' no load, one in my office now has 9 watts. Got 3 there could easily be combined. We used them with cords when moving in, just left them.
Have a neighbor who runs whole garage with 3, one for lights and really uses 1 most of the time and he has about a dozen saws and machine tools. I have seen several places with 30, all gas major appliance and never trip.
Have a neighbor who runs whole garage with 3, one for lights and really uses 1 most of the time and he has about a dozen saws and machine tools. I have seen several places with 30, all gas major appliance and never trip.
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OP
3rdgendslmech
Well-known member
So my rough plan is to have a dedicated circuit for the welder, with a plug in the center and one more by the big door for when I'm welding outside. Dedicated circuit for the air compressor that I'm going to put in a 8x8 shed 10 feet away to save me from noise and floor space. One breaker for lighting. 2 breakers for outlets....one along each side.
I'm not going with a heat pump. Really I would only need heat. Kinda looked into PTACs and they're in the same price range as mini splits. Mini splits I like better because you won't have a big gaping hole in your building. I understand that you get A/C with both.
And as far as electric cars.....I bought a ecoboost F150 for my environmentally friendly contribution....but I'm more a no replacement for displacement kinda guy. Diesels really being my thing.
I'm not going with a heat pump. Really I would only need heat. Kinda looked into PTACs and they're in the same price range as mini splits. Mini splits I like better because you won't have a big gaping hole in your building. I understand that you get A/C with both.
And as far as electric cars.....I bought a ecoboost F150 for my environmentally friendly contribution....but I'm more a no replacement for displacement kinda guy. Diesels really being my thing.
2level
Well-known member
What pricing did you get on mini-splits and PTAC's?
I paid ~$700 per PTAC, with wall sleeve and grill, about 8 years ago. My uncle bought a mini-split last year and paid $1,600 plus another $1,500 for installation.
I paid ~$700 per PTAC, with wall sleeve and grill, about 8 years ago. My uncle bought a mini-split last year and paid $1,600 plus another $1,500 for installation.
Falcon67
Well-known member
that is a pretty big sub panel. Normally I would suggest at 12 to 20. But heck, the more the merrier. There’s always room for expansion.
I have two light and 5 plug circuits, 5 240V runs - heater, air comp, well pump, RV plug, machine tools. If I get a 240V welder, there goes another and with one spot I'll have to wiggle things around.
My experience with PTACs is that if you gave me one, I'd say thanks and never tell you I threw it away or handed it off.
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Hollywood D
Well-known member
I’m having 100amp installed in mine right now. It’s mostly a woodworking shop
sberry
Banned
There is no good reason not to use a 90A wire to a 100 panel. Most in stock panels are 100 anyway.
Krzewinskibe
Well-known member
I'm also in MD and finishing up a 44x60 pole barn. Do you need to go panel to panel? You can split at the meter and run dedicated service to the barn... I'm in the process of having my house feed upgraded to 350-400A to have dedicated 150A in the house (already there) and a 200A direct feed to my pole barn. Should be complete by next week.
I have a few welders, a 10K lift going in and a 50A RV plug...figured I should make sure I have enough power to grow into.
I have a few welders, a 10K lift going in and a 50A RV plug...figured I should make sure I have enough power to grow into.
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It really comes down to what Machines you have, your heating requirements (Electric or fuel) , and your lighting requirements.
No shop is exactly the same. But most shops have similar basic requirements.
My personal (attached 450 square-foot) shop/Garage started out with A 15a split circuit.
I now have;
3 hp Lathe (Harrison)
5 hp air compressor
1 hp Bridgeport
1/2 hp chamfer machine
4 hp disc sander
1.5 hp bobbin sander
1/2 hp DoAll
1.5 hp startrite
1.5 hp drill press
2=>1/2 hp drill presses
3.5 hp cylindrical grinder
3.5 hp surface grinder
40 amp ESAB TDA 200 welder
5000 W electric heater (about 22 A)
A Central vac (for home)
2 garage door opener‘s
5 hp RPC (Rotary phase converter)
20 hp RPC (Rotary phase converter)
2 bench grinders
1 hp pedestal grinder
A Plug outlet for NG 30,000 BTU overhead radiant heater
1/3 hp exhaust blower for welder
I have a 17 ft.² fridge
1000 W microwave
36 T8 for lighting (about 12A)
4 outlets, And about dozen plug-in tools.
My feed lines for my shop are as of now are;
60 amp sub panel, feeding most major machines
40A stove outlet, Feeding air compressor or welder
Split 15 feeding most plug in stuff.
In the future, I do plan on running a new dedicated circuit for lighting and overhead fan. My cleaning lady gets me every time throwing my lights out when she turns on the central vac!
No shop is exactly the same. But most shops have similar basic requirements.
My personal (attached 450 square-foot) shop/Garage started out with A 15a split circuit.
I now have;
3 hp Lathe (Harrison)
5 hp air compressor
1 hp Bridgeport
1/2 hp chamfer machine
4 hp disc sander
1.5 hp bobbin sander
1/2 hp DoAll
1.5 hp startrite
1.5 hp drill press
2=>1/2 hp drill presses
3.5 hp cylindrical grinder
3.5 hp surface grinder
40 amp ESAB TDA 200 welder
5000 W electric heater (about 22 A)
A Central vac (for home)
2 garage door opener‘s
5 hp RPC (Rotary phase converter)
20 hp RPC (Rotary phase converter)
2 bench grinders
1 hp pedestal grinder
A Plug outlet for NG 30,000 BTU overhead radiant heater
1/3 hp exhaust blower for welder
I have a 17 ft.² fridge
1000 W microwave
36 T8 for lighting (about 12A)
4 outlets, And about dozen plug-in tools.
My feed lines for my shop are as of now are;
60 amp sub panel, feeding most major machines
40A stove outlet, Feeding air compressor or welder
Split 15 feeding most plug in stuff.
In the future, I do plan on running a new dedicated circuit for lighting and overhead fan. My cleaning lady gets me every time throwing my lights out when she turns on the central vac!
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OP
3rdgendslmech
Well-known member
I'm also in MD and finishing up a 44x60 pole barn. Do you need to go panel to panel? You can split at the meter and run dedicated service to the barn... I'm in the process of having my house feed upgraded to 350-400A to have dedicated 150A in the house (already there) and a 200A direct feed to my pole barn. Should be complete by next week.
I have a few welders, a 10K lift going in and a 50A RV plug...figured I should make sure I have enough power to grow into.
I thought about this but I'm not sure. The company electrician said if the meter is dual lug, then go that route. Without cutting the lock and acting stupid if anyone ever asks....about all I can tell you is 3 years ago it was upgraded to a smart meter.
Krzewinskibe
Well-known member
I thought about this but I'm not sure. The company electrician said if the meter is dual lug, then go that route. Without cutting the lock and acting stupid if anyone ever asks....about all I can tell you is 3 years ago it was upgraded to a smart meter.
has to be a certified electrician to open the meter....
A 60A feed will be fine. I recommend a 100/125A subpanel with 30 spaces. That way you never run out of spaces. Especially if you are installing several 50A welder outlets to plug your one welder based on where in teh shop you'll be welding. Each welder outlet takes up 2 breaker spaces, even if you are only using one at a time.
Although 60A feed will be plenty, I'd go with a 90A instead. If you look at the price of 6awg copper for the 60A feed, then compare to the price of 2awg aluminum, you'll find that it's cheaper to install the 90A feed due to the high price of copper.
Brian
Although 60A feed will be plenty, I'd go with a 90A instead. If you look at the price of 6awg copper for the 60A feed, then compare to the price of 2awg aluminum, you'll find that it's cheaper to install the 90A feed due to the high price of copper.
Brian
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
has to be a certified electrician to open the meter....
Depends on area.
Out here only PoCo lineman or troubleshooter is allowed to open meter seal.
OP
3rdgendslmech
Well-known member
I'm comfortable with 120/240 and some 480 that I can turn off....but I have no desire to open that meter just to see if it has lugs or not lol
I'm comfortable with 120/240 and some 480 that I can turn off....but I have no desire to open that meter just to see if it has lugs or not lol
Over the years, I've pulled many meters after cutting the seal with the main shut off. More recently, I've drilled many barrel locks to do the same. Underground is the bigger PIA b/c you cant clip it off at a service head. POCO wants $250 to d&r and they are either late or no shows. I've never had a problem with the poco for doing that. Their interest is more about ripping off power vs. opening meter. A new service is obvious why meter seal is cut. A new can doesnt have the lock ko removed.
After seeing too many safety videos, I start to wonder what if pulling this meter breaks the insulators and this can blows up in my face. I wear cotton knit hat and coat with hv gloves but thats not enough. Really thinking about some ppe. Only takes one time!
terabitdan
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2016
- Messages
- 152
I’d call the poco to ask what the right process is. The first time I upgraded the main They told me to call after it was replaced and they would come out with a new meter. It took months.
The second time I broke the seals on both meters, replaced the can and wiring, then put the meter back in. They never said a word. It stayed with seals broken for years until they installed the smart meter.
Opening the can to look at the lugs is pretty simple. Just don’t pull the meter for fun!
A dual meter box with bus bar would have been smart, then using interruptible service for a the new mini-split would have been easy.
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The second time I broke the seals on both meters, replaced the can and wiring, then put the meter back in. They never said a word. It stayed with seals broken for years until they installed the smart meter.
Opening the can to look at the lugs is pretty simple. Just don’t pull the meter for fun!
A dual meter box with bus bar would have been smart, then using interruptible service for a the new mini-split would have been easy.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I have a separate 200 amp service in my garage. It more than meets my current needs, but who knows what my electrical needs will be tomorrow? I figured by having more power installed now I am prepared for what the future brings. I have always found it better to be proactive rather than reactive.
I think this is great advice. I also went with a dedicated 200A panel. While I don't currently use all the power that's available to me, I don't think I will ever need more.