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Power service and water

mully95

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Jun 7, 2011
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Location
Anderson SC
I have one small ditch the width of a shovel in which I plan on using to supply my detached garage with water and power. The ditch runs between my house and the garage. I will using a 100 amp breaker in the existing breaker panel in the house and run 2/2/2/4 wire.


The water will be in 3/4" pipe up to the garage and power will be in 2"conduit. The water will be farther down the line and not be stubbed up right next to the electrical in the garage wall.

Is it OK to run the power and the water supply in the same ditch by International code?
 
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Norcal

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I have one small ditch the width of a shovel in which I plan on using to supply my detached garage with water and power. The ditch runs between my house and the garage. I will using a 100 amp breaker in the existing breaker panel in the house and run 2/2/2/4 wire.


The water will be in 3/4" pipe up to the garage and power will be in 2"conduit. The water will be farther down the line and not be stubbed up right next to the electrical in the garage wall.

Is it OK to run the power and the water supply in the same ditch by International code?

#2AL is NOT suitable for 100A. (too small). I see no issue w/ the water but have no access to international codes.
 

Rosco

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South Georgia
I would be more concerned with the depth of the wire. Typically the power feed needs to be pretty deep depending on where you are and the local codes. If it is direct burial wire there will not be an issue using the same trench, but I would definitely find out what the code is for depth, and then set the wire, backfill, set the water line and then finish back filling.

While you are at it I would definitely run an extra gray electrical conduit for future wants/needs.
 

tfi racing

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What's an "International Code":headscrat AFAIK,nobody in Cameroon,Denmark or Botswana would know or care about what anyone of us is trying to do in a ditch...
 

tfi racing

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Thanks Charles,just a quick glance shows it is truly international just like the World Series or the Superbowl.:thumbup:
When I have the time later this year,I'll see how its implementation is going in Costa Rica or perhaps Belize!:beer:
 

nate379

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Palmer, AK
Like Norcal said #2 wire is too small unless it was the primary wire from pole to house (or meter to house).

Depth... you need to find out your local area codes.

Here water is 10ft and power is 3ft.... strange enough gas lines are only 18" :shocking:
 
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mully95

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Location
Anderson SC
#2AL is NOT suitable for 100A. (too small). I see no issue w/ the water but have no access to international codes.

Like Norcal said #2 wire is too small unless it was the primary wire from pole to house (or meter to house).

Depth... you need to find out your local area codes.

Here water is 10ft and power is 3ft.... strange enough gas lines are only 18" :shocking:

Not trying to doubt your word but I have spoke to 3 licensed electricians and explained what is going to need power in the shop (amperage) , the 100 amp breaker, and the size wire I plan to run. I told them every detail on how I was going to do it. They all said it would work just fine.... one of them wanted to hire me. lol


I would bury the electric at 3' and the water at 2'. Also, it's not a good idea to run data lines in the same vicinity.

Well its all at 2'. Keep in mind I live in SC and we seldom see anything temps below 15 degrees. I mean that's the coldest I can remember. I warped the water pipe in insulation. What gets me is coming out of my house footing and going into the shop footing. The footings aren't 3' or more in the ground and surely to goodness I wouldn't think I need to dig under the footing under the house and far as the shop I have bring the water up through the 8" block so that would involve coming up through the concrete footing.

Far as " same vicinity " I went outside my house and the telephone, cable, and power are right smack beside one another. entering into my house. When they came out and "Call before you dig" and marked cable, phone and power the spray painted marks all come to together in the same area. Explain why I don't have problems with those being so close together?

Google is your friend. Try Googling "international building code" and see what you get.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Building_Code

Charles
I did and finding out depth, width, or any techincal information is not going to happen. What it is they want you to buy the book... I really don't know who they would be but I can't anything far as how deep the power and water will be.

"International Code"??? I hope you are running 2" PVC conduit for the wire feed...

Yes it will be in 2" conduit.


To everyone I might sound like a **** hole but I'm really not trying to be. My comments above might sound like am but that's not the case.
 

Aceman

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Not trying to doubt your word but I have spoke to 3 licensed electricians and explained what is going to need power in the shop (amperage) , the 100 amp breaker, and the size wire I plan to run. I told them every detail on how I was going to do it. They all said it would work just fine.... one of them wanted to hire me.

Listen, working just fine and doing it right aren't the same thing. If where you live follows the NEC, then you need to breaker it at 90. It doesn't matter what 3 licensed electricians said, if they don't know what they're talking about...

I'll even give you a code article for wire ampacities that you can google for yourself so you know I'm not blowing smoke. Table 310.16.

If you don't want to follow the advice you're getting on this forum, then I don't know why you're asking in the first place...?

A few of us are licensed too....
 

NickD

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Creemore, Ont
I am also having trouble finding more information about separating power and data line. Can anyone help us out? Any quick links that describe the issues and how far to separate the lines? Should they be inches apart or feet apart?

Thanks!
 

Gary S

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Bismarck, ND
Listen, working just fine and doing it right aren't the same thing. If where you live follows the NEC, then you need to breaker it at 90.

A few of us are licensed too....

Listen to Aceman. Wiring is not the place to cut corners. The consequences are too high. Cut some of the fluff in the garage, but get the wiring right.
 
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Sureshot

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I would also bury 2 waterlines,a small air line, ethernet, phone and cable. The stuff is cheap and the trench is open. I love having my shop air at the house and a couple years from now that water line will leak and you will be cursing. The others are just in case. Truck airline workd good and you only need a small line and put a small tank on the other end if needed as a reservoir.
 
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mully95

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Anderson SC
Listen, working just fine and doing it right aren't the same thing. If where you live follows the NEC, then you need to breaker it at 90. It doesn't matter what 3 licensed electricians said, if they don't know what they're talking about...

I'll even give you a code article for wire ampacities that you can google for yourself so you know I'm not blowing smoke. Table 310.16.

If you don't want to follow the advice you're getting on this forum, then I don't know why you're asking in the first place...?

A few of us are licensed too....

Well why not help me then......... tell me what I need?
Copper or aluminum wire?
What ga?
The wire will have to be approximately 40' long.

There will be:
10 power outlets
12 4' florescent lights with T8 bulbs
3 outside lights ( 1 beside entrance door and 2 on each side garage door)
2 ceiling fans with no lights
1 flood light
1 six gallon water heater
1 microwave
1 refrigerator
1 tv

and a PTAC system this size. Not sure on name brand but it will need to be this BTU. (30 AMP breaker I am assuming)

http://www.coolrunninghs.com/az61h15ead.html

Hopefully will add a lift sometime down the road.
 
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mully95

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Anderson SC
You can help yourself by searching this topic. It's been covered many many times, here's one thread I found that helps answer some of your questions.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38223&highlight=mobile+home+feeder

Ok so that's how it is?

You blow me out because " don't want to follow the advice you're getting on this forum, then I don't know why you're asking in the first place...?"

and now that I'm asking you have no advice except "help yourself" !!
 

Aceman

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Ok so that's how it is?

You blow me out because " don't want to follow the advice you're getting on this forum, then I don't know why you're asking in the first place...?"

and now that I'm asking you have no advice except "help yourself" !!

I don't understand. Are you mad because I was able to search and find a relevant topic you were capable of finding yourself? Or was it the fact I didn't take the time to answer your questions personally even though I(and many other members) have answered many similar questions in the past that would have came up in a search?

You have 5 posts.
I have 950. Can you guess what most of posts have been about? Answering electrical questions on this forum. So don't give me any **** about not helping people.
 

mrb

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Ok so that's how it is?

You blow me out because " don't want to follow the advice you're getting on this forum, then I don't know why you're asking in the first place...?"

and now that I'm asking you have no advice except "help yourself" !!

wow. im sure you will get alot of quality help here with that attitude.
 
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mully95

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Messages
7
Location
Anderson SC
I don't understand. Are you mad because I was able to search and find a relevant topic you were capable of finding yourself? Or was it the fact I didn't take the time to answer your questions personally even though I(and many other members) have answered many similar questions in the past that would have came up in a search?

You have 5 posts.
I have 950. Can you guess what most of posts have been about? Answering electrical questions on this forum. So don't give me any **** about not helping people.

Oh that's ok .... I installed it just like the REAL electricians told me to do it and have no problems. Passed the rough in and final inspection with no problems. Told 2 of the them about your 90 amp breaker and they both busted out laughing.:spit: "Who is the ******* you talking to?" I said "Some ******** on the net!" I don't care if you have 10,000 posts that doesnt make you any smarter that's for sure.
 

gatchel

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Oh that's ok .... I installed it just like the REAL electricians told me to do it and have no problems. Passed the rough in and final inspection with no problems. Told 2 of the them about your 90 amp breaker and they both busted out laughing.:spit: "Who is the ******* you talking to?" I said "Some ******** on the net!" I don't care if you have 10,000 posts that doesnt make you any smarter that's for sure.

I too was confused about the 100A / 90A subpanel feeder issue as you are referring to. I had a few electricians and my inspector tell me that 100A breaker was OK to feed a sub too. It even passed with a 100A breaker in the main panel. This doesn't make it right.

If you take the time to educate yourself and seek out the information listed in the table listed earlier in this topic you will find that your electricians, you inspector, and you are wrong. Codes change for a reason. If you want to do it right you will follow the latest codes. If you want to do it wrong, leave the 100A beaker installed.

Will you ever have a problem? Probably not. Is you work correct, no, it's not. If you're OK with that, great!

Here is a version of the table referenced earlier:
http://www.houwire.com/products/technical/article310_16.html

Look at the left column go down to the number 2, go over to the column under "ALUMINUM OR COPPER-CLAD ALUMINUM" under the 75 degrees c column (assuming you used USE type cable or similar as your 2/2/2/4 cable description in your original post does not give enough information) and look at the number where the 2 columns intersect. It's 90, as in 90 Amps. That's what your main panel "garage" breaker should be.

Also, if you know any one that wants to buy a 100A siemens breaker let me know I have a slightly used one that is for sale. It was used for about 2 weeks until I installed the correct 90A breaker.
 

Norcal

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Oh that's ok .... I installed it just like the REAL electricians told me to do it and have no problems. Passed the rough in and final inspection with no problems. Told 2 of the them about your 90 amp breaker and they both busted out laughing.:spit: "Who is the ******* you talking to?" I said "Some ******** on the net!" I don't care if you have 10,000 posts that doesnt make you any smarter that's for sure.

Your "real electricians" are hack electricians that are too lazy to look in a code book.:mad:

Your installation does not meet the criteria set forth in NEC table 310.16(B)(6) allowing the wiring be undersized, yes, undersized, it is only allowed to do so when they are service entrance conductors suppling the entire load of the dwelling, this does not apply to a subpanel or a feeder to a outbuilding.

Tell your so-called electricians from Hack Electric to buy a code book, maybe they will learn something.
 
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Charles (in GA)

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Oh that's ok .... I installed it just like the REAL electricians told me to do it and have no problems. Passed the rough in and final inspection with no problems. Told 2 of the them about your 90 amp breaker and they both busted out laughing.:spit: "Who is the ******* you talking to?" I said "Some ******** on the net!" I don't care if you have 10,000 posts that doesnt make you any smarter that's for sure.

Please note, ******* matches on the internet serve no good purpose, and I refuse to "argue" with anyone on the internet.... its a waste of my time and theirs. I provide facts, reliable facts, statements, all which can be backed up by respected and legitimate sources on or off of the internet... after that, its up to you to decide who is right and who is not

While Aceman and others have become a little obnoxious it's because this very thing with the 2-2-2-4 wire and 100 amp breaker, comes up every few weeks on this forum, it gets old after a while, especially when GJ members like yourself say they talked to licensed electricians that said it was OK. Its not, and the code sections cited above prove it. They think because that one chart says 100 amp is OK for #2 AL for dwelling services and feeders, then its OK for everything...... its not. The code is specific. The feeder from a main panel to a sub panel in a garage is not a "dwelling service or feeder" and you cannot use that chart (310.15(B)(7) for ampacities of the wires. Instead, you have to use the wire ampacities table 310.15(B)(16) {2011 code, former codes have it numbered at 310.16}

Since it is intended for a NON-dwelling use, then it, according to the current and past National Electric Codes, is NOT OK.

Nobody is telling you tall tales, pulling the wool over your eyes, its not because this is the internet and no one knows anything....... its simply that MOST ordinary electricians simply do not know, most, surprisingly, do not even own a current code book, some don't even own a code book at all.

If you believe these electricians you know, ask them to show it to you in their code book. Watch them studder and stammer, hem and haw, as they either cannot find it, don't have a code book, or simply want to argue that what is in print in the book "isn't right".

I have a friend down the road from me. I rented a small cottage from him before I bought this house. He is a mechanical engineer by education, a GA licensed electrician and plumber, quite skilled and handy, well versed in the construction trades in general, yet he gave me electrical advise when I was wiring my shop, that I found out later, was not correct.

Prior to that, I replaced the service and electrical panel in my parents home after they passed away. It had a 60 amp fuse panel and was not even insurable, let alone sellable. I had a very good friend who owned a commercial electrical firm in town, quite knowledgeable, even went with me to pick out certain panels and parts that I would need, his advise was good, but I also got some bad advise from him, Nothing that was going to kill anyone, but information that was not technically correct.

What I have done is to seek out the information myself. If someone else tells me something, I verify it myself, in the code books.

If you are doing any wiring at all, you would do well to own these two books.

Illustrated Guide to the NEC by Charles Miller

51DJehtftrL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg


The National Electric Code 2011 paperback edition

31fCGnQAl1L._SL500_AA300_.jpg


Expensive, yes, but you get the satisfaction of knowing that you have the proper information right at hand. Mr. Miller's book will give you code references, and illustrate things in a very understandable way. Below is a page from one of the previous editions of the book, which I posted here in response to a question posed about putting a panel behind a door.

attachment.php


Cannot say much else.

Charles
 
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Charles (in GA)

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I have, in the past, purchased the paperback 2005 and 2008 versions of the NEC along with Mr. Miller's book. This year, I purchased the spiral bound version of the NEC 2011 and decided to not purchase Mr. Miller's book, though I may before its over with. The new NEC came with an offer to download a PDF copy of the entire NEC 2011, identical to the printed copy I had. It took a couple of phone calls and they had to send me an email with a link to the download and a password, but I did get the PDF. While copyright laws do not allow me to wholesale publish the code, they do allow for quoting or copying from copyrighted works for use in making a point in a discussion or a review of the material. Below is a paragraph from section 310 where the residential service or feeder amperage's are discussed, and this helps to explain why the table 310.15(B)(7) is not suitable for use in a garage feeder.

(7) 120/240-Volt, 3-Wire, Single-Phase Dwelling Services
and Feeders.

For individual dwelling units of onefamily,
two-family, and multifamily dwellings, conductors,
as listed in Table 310.15(B)(7), shall be permitted as
120/240-volt, 3-wire, single-phase service-entrance conductors,
service-lateral conductors, and feeder conductors
that serve as the main power feeder to each dwelling unit

and are installed in raceway or cable with or without an
equipment grounding conductor. For application of this section,
the main power feeder shall be the feeder between the
main disconnect and the panelboard that supplies, either by
branch circuits or by feeders, or both, all loads that are part
or associated with the dwelling unit
. The feeder conductors
to a dwelling unit shall not be required to have an allowable
ampacity rating greater than their service-entrance conductors.
The grounded conductor shall be permitted to be
smaller than the ungrounded conductors, provided the requirements
of 215.2, 220.61, and 230.42 are met


Note that this is specific to dwellings. Here is the table involved.

Table 310.15(B)(7) Conductor Types and Sizes for
120/240-Volt, 3-Wire, Single-Phase Dwelling Services and
Feeders. Conductor Types RHH, RHW, RHW-2, THHN,
THHW, THW, THW-2, THWN, THWN-2, XHHW,
XHHW-2, SE, USE, USE-2
Conductor (AWG or kcmil)
Service or Feeder
Rating (Amperes)
Copper
Aluminum or
Copper-Clad
Aluminum
100 4 2
110 3 1
125 2 1/0
150 1 2/0
175 1/0 3/0
200 2/0 4/0
225 3/0 250
250 4/0 300
300 250 350
350 350 500
400 400 600


Sorry, tables do not copy correctly, but the first column is amps, the second is copper wire size, and the third is aluminum or cu clad aluminum wire size. As you can see, #2 is fine for 100 amps........ FOR A DWELLING.

Now, table 310.15(B)(16) {formerly 310.16) gives you the info you need for OTHER THAN DWELLING (edit to add: "OTHER THAN DWELLING MAIN SERVICE OR FEEDER"). I cannot copy that table, it is a full page and will get scrambled, and is a secured, single user license......

Suffice to say, #2 AL using the 90°C column for USE-2 wire (which is what this quadplex wire is) is suitable for 100 amps, according to the table. HOWEVER, there is a problem, you cannot use the 90°C column because the code says you rate a circuit by the lowest temp rated device or equipment in the circuit. There are no 90°C rated circuit breakers or terminals manufactured for home or light commercial use, they are all rated 60°C/75°C and as such, you have to go to the 75°C column of the table to find the correct amperage for the circuit, which is 90 amps. The reason the table even has a 90°C column is for the purpose of derating the wire due to either high ambient temperatures or excessive numbers of current carrying wires in a conduit, then you get to use the higher temp column to begin the derating calculations, provided the wire is rated for the higher temp to begin with.

I hope this helps you understand the situation.

Charles
 
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Aceman

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Messages
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Eastern Oregon
Oh that's ok .... I installed it just like the REAL electricians told me to do it and have no problems. Passed the rough in and final inspection with no problems. Told 2 of the them about your 90 amp breaker and they both busted out laughing.:spit: "Who is the ******* you talking to?" I said "Some ******** on the net!" I don't care if you have 10,000 posts that doesnt make you any smarter that's for sure.

Yep, you really showed me, even though it took you 5 mos. to do it.

:headscrat
 

Norcal

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Anyone think the OP will reply to this thread anymore??? :D:D:D:D:D
 

TireTracks

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Yakima,Washington.
Someone want to clarifiy something too me?

If the wire he used, is Ok to Feed a house with a 100A breaker, why isnt it Ok to use to feed a shop?
I Guess i'm not understanding it correctly?
I'm not an electician so That doesnt really make sence. :Headscratch
 

pattenp

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Location
Virginia - USA
Charles explained it very well in post #26. #2 AL is ok for 100A as main service but only good for 90A as a circuit. That's just the way it is by code. I'm not a electrical engineer but I believe the difference in code for amp capacity is because service entrance is usually 2 current carrying conductors but the feeder circuit to a detached structure will have 3 current carrying conductors. I think it gets into how much imbalance current the neutral may have to carry. :headscrat I may be totally in left field on this.

Someone want to clarifiy something too me?

If the wire he used, is Ok to Feed a house with a 100A breaker, why isnt it Ok to use to feed a shop?
I Guess i'm not understanding it correctly?
I'm not an electician so That doesnt really make sence. :Headscratch
 
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