Power Setup

[aort11]

I'm planning out my electric upgrades before I start on the shop. Right now I have a 200 amp service underground to my house with no disconnect that is about 200 ft from the pole. The barn is only about 30 feet from the pole, so that is were I want the main service to start.

I want a 200 amp to the house, 200 amp to the barn and an additional 200 amp for a future building. I also want an auxiliary power disconnect (generator) in line for at least the house. Right now I have no disconnects so I want to have all 3 on a 200 amp disconnect.

I have quite a bit of basic electrical experience, but I'm just not sure on the best way to split my service into 3 200 amp disconnects. I was already looking at a Ronk panel for the generator switch over, but other than that I'm not sure. All service will be underground with appropriate wire.

Thanks

 

[RunninOnEmpty]

It's highly unlikely that you can get 600A service from your power company. A lot of people are lucky to find 400A available in residential 1-phase, and 3-phase is not likely to be an option available to any residential customer.

How much overlap is there here? How much service would be in use in each building at any given time? We need to figure out your actual service requirement.

And call your power company and ask what the largest service they will sell you is.

 

[aort11]

It is a commercial property as there is a farm on it as well. I know I can get single phase 400 amp as we have it on some other properties. I don't believe I would ever need 600 amps at a time. I believe there is 3 phase service close to me, but I'd rather not go that route if possible. Individually though I would want each building to be on a 200 amp service.

The house is all electric, with geothermal heating (electric backup). It has a 200 amp main panel with a 60 amp sub in the basement. The biggest amp items here would be the furnace, range, water heater and dryer.

The shop will be half shop half bar/lounge. The shop side will have a welder, compressor and other common items. There will also be a 30 amp RV plug outside. It will most likely be floor heat with an LP water heater on the shop side and a mini split ac/heat on the bar side. There will be a range, fridge, etc in the bar area as well.

The new building would be a heavy equipment shop, with many of the same things as the smaller shop. Neither would likely be in use at the same time.

Just looking at it from a big picture, it seems as if each building would need a 200 amp service to safely cover the need, but not all the time and not all at the same time.

 

[Aceman]

Do this properly you NEED to know what your loads will be in EACH building. That means write down all your electrical items line by line and what each of them draws for power.
That doesn't mean since you plug a welder into a 240v 50 amp circuit that it draws 50 amps, you need to know what it actually uses.

You also NEED to know what voltage/phase/ampacities are available from your power company. Call them up or look up their service requirements on the web. Most will have an online service requirements manual with all the info you need in it.

After you figure all this stuff out, then the members here can help you come up with a plan for building the service the way you want.

 

[aort11]

The house panel has the following

8 - 20 amp breakers for outlets, lights, etc
4 - DP 20 amp breakers, sump pump, well, softener, etc
3 - DP 30 amp breakers, water heater, furnace, dryer
1 - DP 50 amp breaker, range
2 - DP 60 amp breakers, Furnace backup and basement sub

Like I said the shop/bar would have the following

The shop will be half shop half bar/lounge. The shop side will have a welder, compressor and other common items. There will also be a 30 amp RV plug outside. It will most likely be floor heat with an LP water heater on the shop side and a mini split ac/heat on the bar side. There will be a range, fridge, etc in the bar area as well.

So lets say

10 - 20 amp breakers
1 - 20 amp DP Breaker compressor
1 - 30 amp breaker RV
1 - 30 amp DP breaker Welder
1 - 50 amp DP breaker Range

Guessing on the new building:

10 - 20 amp breakers
1 - 20 amp DP Breaker compressor
1 - 30 amp breaker RV
2 - 30 amp DP breaker Welder
1- ?? for heating

This is as close as I can get right now. I know I can get single phase 120/240v 400 amp service. I believe above that will be 3 phase which I'd like to avoid.

Thanks

 

[aort11]

This is what I was picturing. The red is the main feed, yellow is to the buildings and blue is auxiliary feed. There will of course be the proper wires and grounding, there just wasn't enough room to draw it all in. That meter combo is also a 400 amp disconnect/auxiliary power. Then feeding 3 200 amp disconnects with pass through lugs. This seems the easiest and most simple, but I'm not sure if it is acceptable.

Thanks

 

[sberry]

You want a 400 with 2 200A panels on it, one with 8 spaces and main lug feed thru. You dont need 600A and would come up with a frugal scheme of outage service vs having to switch a huge disconnect.

 

[sberry]

That drawing has all 3 panels with main feed thru, the meter would have double lug, 200 to one panel and 200 to another, not all 3 in series.

 

[aort11]

That drawing has all 3 panels with main feed thru, the meter would have double lug, 200 to one panel and 200 to another, not all 3 in series.

Then what would I do for the 3rd service if I only used two out of the meter base?

 

[sberry]

You may not need the disconnects,,, simply from meter base to main breaker panel in house and to a main in garage, this is one I may be temped to feed thru then to the new building or better yet from a breaker to the new building if 100 would be sufficient.

 

[sberry]

Some of the pics are old but have 2 panels, one for indoor and on feeds outbuildings nd well and you can see in 1st pic an LB for service to a new building. I like having the outbuildings on their own breakers. I actually used the main lug feed thru for my tig thru another 100A disconnect.

 

[theoldwizard1]

You can get a combination meter/load center and mount it on the pole where the service comes in on your property. Just make sure that load center will handle 400A in and has space for 4 - 200A breakers.

Siemens MC0816B1400RLTM with Siemens 200A QNR breaker feeding each building.

That Siemens load center looks small for that amount of wire and I did not check the SIZE of the wire allowed on those breakers !

You could also do a 400A meter box on one side of the pole feeding a load center on the other side of the pole.

Both solutions may cost extra $$$, but you can disconnect any one or more buidings at a time without messing with the others.

 

[aort11]

You can get a combination meter/load center and mount it on the pole where the service comes in on your property. Just make sure that load center will handle 400A in and has space for 4 - 200A breakers.

Siemens MC0816B1400RLTM with Siemens 200A QNR breaker feeding each building.

That Siemens load center looks small for that amount of wire and I did not check the SIZE of the wire allowed on those breakers !

You could also do a 400A meter box on one side of the pole feeding a load center on the other side of the pole.

Both solutions may cost extra $$$, but you can disconnect any one or more buidings at a time without messing with the others.

The Siemens MC0816B1400RLTM looks like it could work. The Siemens 200A QNR breaker specifies #1-300kcmil wire size, which would handle 4/0 al. I would need to feed to the bottom lugs from the meter though so I don't have a single 200 amp breaker between a 400 amp service with 3 other 200 amp breakers on the circuit. I think as long as I could get all of the wire in the box, this is the best solution so far for the meter. This doesn't have the ability for a generator supply line however.

I could do the Ronk Model 7410MS. It would be able to feed all 3 structures with generator backup. It will just be an all or nothing disconnect and not be able to isolate a certain building. I could probably live with that.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Siemens make a lot of different combination meter base/load centers. The big issue is not only what size breakers the load center half can handle, especially in wire diameter but also is there enough room to handle ALL OF THAT LARGE GAUGE WIRE !

Remember, you have 4 wires running to each building !

Is it legal to punch the side of the box and installed some weather resistant seal and adapter so you can come in with a 2" LB ?

You are going to need to lay eyes on what ever you are going to purchase and mock up the wire runs to see it it is do able.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The house panel has the following

8 - 20 amp breakers for outlets, lights, etc
4 - DP 20 amp breakers, sump pump, well, softener, etc
3 - DP 30 amp breakers, water heater, furnace, dryer
1 - DP 50 amp breaker, range
2 - DP 60 amp breakers, Furnace backup and basement sub

Like I said the shop/bar would have the following

The shop will be half shop half bar/lounge. The shop side will have a welder, compressor and other common items. There will also be a 30 amp RV plug outside. It will most likely be floor heat with an LP water heater on the shop side and a mini split ac/heat on the bar side. There will be a range, fridge, etc in the bar area as well.

So lets say

10 - 20 amp breakers
1 - 20 amp DP Breaker compressor
1 - 30 amp breaker RV
1 - 30 amp DP breaker Welder
1 - 50 amp DP breaker Range

Guessing on the new building:

10 - 20 amp breakers
1 - 20 amp DP Breaker compressor
1 - 30 amp breaker RV
2 - 30 amp DP breaker Welder
1- ?? for heating

This is as close as I can get right now. I know I can get single phase 120/240v 400 amp service. I believe above that will be 3 phase which I'd like to avoid.

Thanks

I guess you either didnt read or didnt understand what Aceman said.

U need to do a PROPER load calc. Then we can help. Your PoCo will most likely request this in writting as well to approve the service upgrade!

BTW 400a is 320a continous. If u need more than that based on load calcs, u would have to step up to CT(current transformer) metering which gets very expensive! But u CAN get higher rated single phase service.

Keep in mind this all depends on the PoCo.

So do your load calcs, then contact your PoCo and see what size services they offer.

The Siemens MC0816B1400RLTM looks like it could work. The Siemens 200A QNR breaker specifies #1-300kcmil wire size, which would handle 4/0 al. I would need to feed to the bottom lugs from the meter though so I don't have a single 200 amp breaker between a 400 amp service with 3 other 200 amp breakers on the circuit. I think as long as I could get all of the wire in the box, this is the best solution so far for the meter. This doesn't have the ability for a generator supply line however.

I could do the Ronk Model 7410MS. It would be able to feed all 3 structures with generator backup. It will just be an all or nothing disconnect and not be able to isolate a certain building. I could probably live with that.

Wil that be an auto transfer switched generator? If so, the generator either needs to be sized to handle the entire load or the transfer switch needs to have automatic load shedding