Power to a distant well

[AntonLargiader]

A friend of mine has terrible, terrible water but recently bought some adjoining property that has a good well, about 1600' from his house and maybe 1000' past his barn where there is power. He's contemplating a few ideas for using this well rather than his existing one. His house is about 200' higher than the water in the new well (40' in the well and 160' on the surface) and he's looking at a 1.5hp pump.

Regular old 240V cable really isn't an option because dealing with the voltage drop over 1600' makes for ridiculously expensive cable.

1) New POCO service at the well. Minimum $30/month charge of which it's probably $10 fee and the first $20 of any electricity used. It's not a terrible option but the pressure control would have to be worked out as the system would be under a lot of pressure (90+ PSI I think) at all times.

2) Step-up/down transformers. I think this would be controlled by a pressure switch at the house which would simply send power to the well when needed.

3) 3-phase step-up at the house and a 460V 3-phase pump. Minimizes equipment, but the components may not be readily available if replacement is needed.

Anyone have experience with this? I've fixed wells but that's about all.

 

[mm08822]

200 ft height difference is 86PSI so pump has to be spec'd above that and then for desired flow which pipe size will determine. The pump may need to produce 150 psi so there is 60psi in the holding tank. An inverter on the pump would be needed to provide a mild ramp up and mild shut down. Otherwise the hammering could be very destructive.

A check valve will be needed to prevent the pump from back pedaling. If the pump were back pedaling and told to run, it could easily shear the pump shaft. The pipe needs to be below frost line otherwise the check valve creates a freeze issue. A good vfd drive has a "flying start option" where when enabled, verifies if the motor is spinning and at what speed. If moving, it will match the frequency and bring the motor through zero rpm and then run in the correct direction and speed.

1) What powered the well originally? Why not keep that source as is? Other ckts could be disconnected at the panel if all he wants is the well pump to run. Control wires would still need to run between pump and house

2) where is the 3 phase power available? If not, then the inverter is definitely needed to convert the single phase to 3 phase as well as ramp rates, overload protection and speed control. I would put the vfd at the well head and not at the receiving house.

3) 3 phase pump motor would definitely be needed to get the needed features out of a vfd so this extreme distance system doesn't blow itself apart.

or

4) dig a new well close to home and forget 1-3.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Hope your friend has deep pockets...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

200 ft height difference is 86PSI so pump has to be spec'd above that and then for desired flow which pipe size will determine. The pump may need to produce 150 psi so there is 60psi in the holding tank. An inverter on the pump would be needed to provide a mild ramp up and mild shut down. Otherwise the hammering could be very destructive.

A check valve will be needed to prevent the pump from back pedaling. If the pump were back pedaling and told to run, it could easily shear the pump shaft. The pipe needs to be below frost line otherwise the check valve creates a freeze issue. A good vfd drive has a "flying start option" where when enabled, verifies if the motor is spinning and at what speed. If moving, it will match the frequency and bring the motor through zero rpm and then run in the correct direction and speed.

1) What powered the well originally? Why not keep that source as is? Other ckts could be disconnected at the panel if all he wants is the well pump to run. Control wires would still need to run between pump and house

2) where is the 3 phase power available? If not, then the inverter is definitely needed to convert the single phase to 3 phase as well as ramp rates, overload protection and speed control. I would put the vfd at the well head and not at the receiving house.

3) 3 phase pump motor would definitely be needed to get the needed features out of a vfd so this extreme distance system doesn't blow itself apart.

or

4) dig a new well close to home and forget 1-3.

How about a 4th option?

Put bigger pressure tank at well and then use a booster pump to get water to house. Power from house with set of 480v trannies...

 

[larry_g]

My son and sister-in-law both have a well pumps that pump into a cistern and then have a pressure pump in the cistern that raises the pressure up to household pressure. That way the pump in the well only has to pump against the the head pressure of the rise up the hill to the cistern..

lg
no neat sig line

 

[Walkers]

Use a Benny at the well, pump into a 2500 gallon storage tank near house, then use a pressure pump for the house. Honestly, the PoCo sounds pretty attractive pricewise.

 

[AntonLargiader]

1) My impression is that there's no existing building or service. Just a well. He would build a well house around it for any needed equipment.

2) He'd be creating it if needed.

4) He already has a well close to the house but the iron is over 15 PPM and it destroys his fixtures and treatment system. He could drill a new well and find the same again. This well is 0.5 PPM.

1) What powered the well originally? Why not keep that source as is? Other ckts could be disconnected at the panel if all he wants is the well pump to run. Control wires would still need to run between pump and house

2) where is the 3 phase power available? If not, then the inverter is definitely needed to convert the single phase to 3 phase as well as ramp rates, overload protection and speed control. I would put the vfd at the well head and not at the receiving house.

3) 3 phase pump motor would definitely be needed to get the needed features out of a vfd so this extreme distance system doesn't blow itself apart.

or

4) dig a new well close to home and forget 1-3.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Use a Benny at the well, ...

What's a "Benny" ?

Depending on how much water is used at the house, I would look into a solar set up. It will be expensive !

Solar array at the well head. I know they make DC pumps but I don't know how powerful they are. LARGE (500 gal) storage tank at the well. It will likely take 2 pumps. One to fill the tank and one to push the water to the house? You still may need a booster at the house.

An auto-start generator at the well head just lift the water to the tank is cheaper in the short run. Of course, you must keep the diesel fuel tank filled !

I ASSUME he has looked into all that of the treatment options available for the current well. They are not cheap, but may be cheaper than getting power to that well.

 

[AntonLargiader]

He's getting a quote from a guy recommended by our local well supply company. It'll be interesting to see what sort of system he gets quoted.

I don't see anything like generators or solar arrays being involved. A soft-start 460V 3-phase system, by the numbers, looks like it could run on 12g wire for that distance. Maybe there's a good use for an intermediate tank in the barn. I think a key to reliability here will be simplicity, though.

Neither of us think the PoCo option is too expensive, but it's probably only worth it if you don't need to run any other wires with the pipe. And the power needed is surprisingly (to me) cheap: just a few dollars a month to pump 300 gal/day.

 

[Walkers]

What's a "Benny" ?

It is the autocorrect version of a genny, or generator.

 

[dcg9381]

4) He already has a well close to the house but the iron is over 15 PPM and it destroys his fixtures and treatment system. He could drill a new well and find the same again. This well is 0.5 PPM.

Has he looked at "real" water treatment systems. There are quite a few suppliers on the internet. The **** they sell at home depot / hardware stores isn't nearly enough for many well systems. It may be easier/cheaper to treat 15PPM of iron than it is to do what he's thinking about doing, assuming the other well has "better" water. He really needs a complete analysis from a lab on his water to design equipment for it.

Whole house reverse osmosis is the other option. It's expensive and wasteful to water (you can perhaps use the wastewater for other purposes).

At 1000', I think you're looking at one of two ways:
1) A boost pump
2) Tanking that water near the residence and allowing a very slow fill rate, then pumping the water from the tank to the residence... Really another "boost" option. As you're up north, freezing may be an issue so you'd need to heat that tank if above ground.

 

[ycgoat]

Several options, none are all that cheap. I lije the idea of a new meter, then you have plenty of power for future needs. Controls could be done with serial cable, wireless, or even cellular

 

[AntonLargiader]

I haven't dug into the water issues there and he's pretty knowledgeable about this stuff. I'm not going to try to reinvent his water treatment; I'm just looking for some ideas on the electrical side.

I can see that water treatment is a whole research area of its own! My house has slightly acidic water which we neutralize and also run through a UV light. It's on the edge of needing to be softened but so far we've avoided that.

Plenty of power for future needs? He's not on GJ, so he's not going to overbuild on the chance that he'll want to build a shop that's 1600 feet from his house.

 

[nh_yota]

Remember any wiring you install will not only cost money upfront but will also require periodic maintenance when something fails. I think a separate service from the power company would work out cheaper in the long run.

 

[rlitman]

Remember any wiring you install will not only cost money upfront but will also require periodic maintenance when something fails. I think a separate service from the power company would work out cheaper in the long run.

And should he ever decide to sell the property, the wire between the two is now a liability.

 

[Zeke]

What about piping? 1600 of feet of that too? I don't know anything about rural living but I would think some kind of holding tank would be the ticket. Go fill it with a gas powered pump once a week. Maybe place the tank closer to the home. Then an electric booster pump from there.

 

[dcg9381]

How does he know the water is good? Really the only way to know is water analysis.
Generally, the water quality is consistent for the area, unless you're hitting a different aquifer (depth). In Texas, you can look at well logs for some information.

Water in our area is high with dissolved solids. There is no way around it for drinking. Pipe longevity can be saved by water softeners which add sodium, but it's not perfect. Reverse osmois is really the only way to fix it. Depending on use of the property and rainfall, rain water can also be a long term solution - that's what we do at our home.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I can see that water treatment is a whole research area of its own! My house has slightly acidic water which we neutralize and also run through a UV light. It's on the edge of needing to be softened but so far we've avoided that.

Spend the money and get a water softener !

 

[AntonLargiader]

Just to wrap this up, he is mostly finished. He buried 1-1/4" 250 PSI PVC pipe (this is pretty thick stuff) and #6 UF-b cable from the barn to the well. At the barn he buried a new septic tank to use as a well house for a pressure tank that controls the well. And then just the PVC pipe from the barn to the house. He reports that the family's quality of life is totally transformed by the water quality. I believe it.

He still needs to add another check valve down at the well to reduce hammer.

 

[The Cobbler]

I'm late here but I would have done a cistern at the house and bought a tank & truck to haul it, or a gas/diesel pump at the well end to fill it

 

[mm08822]

He better make sure the septic tank doesn't load up with water. If it does, pressure switch shorts out and maybe connections in the 4" jbox.

What is the pressure switch set at?

Is freeze protection a concern?

 

[AntonLargiader]

The tank drains. Buried as it is, it shouldn't come anywhere near freezing. Not sure about the pressure; the barn is about the same elevation as the house so probably not that high at the tank, but certainly higher at the pump.

 

[AntonLargiader]

I'm late here but I would have done a cistern at the house and bought a tank & truck to haul it, or a gas/diesel pump at the well end to fill it

I'm sure he had zero interest in solutions like that. This is 2023 and we have electricity to do this stuff for us now.

 

[jlv03]

Just to wrap this up, he is mostly finished. He buried 1-1/4" 250 PSI PVC pipe (this is pretty thick stuff) and #6 UF-b cable from the barn to the well. At the barn he buried a new septic tank to use as a well house for a pressure tank that controls the well. And then just the PVC pipe from the barn to the house. He reports that the family's quality of life is totally transformed by the water quality. I believe it.

He still needs to add another check valve down at the well to reduce hammer.

What is the voltage across the length?

Is there a disconnect inside the well house to allow for service of the pressure switch without having to go in/out of it?

 

[FredWanaker]

Glad it worked out. I would have gone solar and a battery at the well, then pumped to a holding tank near the house. If something this simply cannot be done then solar has no future. Heck, for that matter someone could use a new PU with an inverter built in to go down there once a week to power the pump to put water in a holding tank for the house.

 

[AntonLargiader]

What is the voltage across the length?

Is there a disconnect inside the well house to allow for service of the pressure switch without having to go in/out of it?

If you mean the voltage drop I don't know. He bought the wire based on what the pump needed accounting for all of that length. I didn't go down into the tank so I don't know what those 4x4 boxes have. The power probably comes in from the left and out to the right in the photograph. Makes sense that the one on the left could be a switch but I don't know that for sure. I'll line up a ladder next time I'm out there and go in.

Glad it worked out. I would have gone solar and a battery at the well, then pumped to a holding tank near the house. If something this simply cannot be done then solar has no future. Heck, for that matter someone could use a new PU with an inverter built in to go down there once a week to power the pump to put water in a holding tank for the house.

I get the impression the well is in a totally wooded area; I didn't see any kind of clearing as I went up his driveway. It was drilled for a house which was never built; my friend bought the land that way.

Again, there's no way he (or I for that matter) would have wanted something that required his constant involvement. Trucking water around, running generators, holding tanks... screw that s**t. Unless there's some really extreme condition - and apparently this isn't one - you should just be able to turn a tap and get water, end of story. Let electricity do all of the work.

 

[FredWanaker]

the phrase "heavily wooded area with reliable power" is an oxymoron

 

[AntonLargiader]

The phrase "Virginia with reliable power" is just as ridiculous. He does lose power from time to time, like everyone else in the area. But that's normal here. Been like that all my life. He lives at the end of a private road, maybe a half mile long, that serves a dozen houses. The well is maybe 1/3 of the way up that road. The pipe and wire run from there to the top where his barn is (and the incoming power), and then another few hundred feet to his house.

 

[FredWanaker]

It might be worth contacting the local geology department at a JC or university for an opinion why the water quality is so different, in an attempt to keep it that way. One well can say be into basalt which has lots of iron in it, and the other into sandstone or limestone, perhaps even an underground system of caves that have much water flowing thru them. Or there can be several layers of aquifers at different depths between confining layers - and one well is in one aquifer and the other in a different. A good guess at how much water can be pumped from the good aquifer without causing the one loaded in iron to intrude would be meaningful. There are also large uranium deposits around Danville, largest in the world I have read, where radon and radioactive materials can be in the water. I do agree that maintaining a high-quality water supply is one of the most important things we can do for our wellbeing.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

It might be worth contacting the local geology department at a JC or university for an opinion why the water quality is so different, in an attempt to keep it that way. One well can say be into basalt which has lots of iron in it, and the other into sandstone or limestone, perhaps even an underground system of caves that have much water flowing thru them. Or there can be several layers of aquifers at different depths between confining layers - and one well is in one aquifer and the other in a different. A good guess at how much water can be pumped from the good aquifer without causing the one loaded in iron to intrude would be meaningful. There are also large uranium deposits around Danville, largest in the world I have read, where radon and radioactive materials can be in the water. I do agree that maintaining a high-quality water supply is one of the most important things we can do for our wellbeing.

interesting Ive never heard of that before. wonder why there were never any uranium mines out there. Out in the central valley we have some uranium deposits but not a ton and its in the water.... it was so bad in one well at a school in the country, that they had to install an expensive filtering system

Fear at the tap: Uranium contaminates water in the West

FRESNO, Calif. (AP) — In a trailer park tucked among irrigated orchards that help make California's San Joaquin Valley the richest farm region in the world, 16-year-old Giselle Alvarez, one of the few English-speakers in the community of farmworkers, puzzles over the notices posted on front...

apnews.com

 

[AntonLargiader]

I think he said the well was drilled through several aquifers before hitting the one they used, based on conversations with the original owner. His original well (with the extremely high iron) is right at his house, so probably 1500' away. I'll ask if he knows about the aquifers for that. He built the house so the well is original to him.

 

[dcg9381]

Around here, it's the well guys that know the aquifers... And know them well. There are also (my state) required well logs that you can look up to see the output and general water quality of other wells in the area. Dunno if that helps at all.