Power to the new garage

[Doug1]

I want to have power there to run a 220v compressor and AC unit, table saw and other electrical tools. Building is 480 sq ft. Should I run a 100 AMP service from the main house.

If so, what kind of wire should be run between the buildings? Shoudl it attach at the main breaker or get the electric company to hook it up at the meter?

I'll hire a licensed electrician for this but want to have a good idea of what I need ahead of time.

 

[FJ 432]

I don't believe you can have two meters for the same address. Your note indicates that this is a detached garage, correct. Most people run aluminum wire for great distances to keep the costs down. Chances are your electrician will give you the two choices, copper or aluminum.

You can have a 100amp breaker in your existing house's panel and use a MLO (main lug only) panel in your garage.

 

[darkk]

I had two electric meters. One for my house and one for the detached garage that is about 100 foot from the house. Both have road frontage. I just converted to a single service and ran the wiring under ground.

 

[gatchel]

You can have a 100amp breaker in your existing house's panel and use a MLO (main lug only) panel in your garage.

In my area, you need a disconnect in the garage or remote building. You may want to look into this.

I would recommend just using a main breaker panel. It doesn't cost that much more and will be worth it the first time you need to use it, if ever.

I also am assuming the garage is detached according to the description.

 

[5lima30]

I just finished getting power to my detached 16x28. What I did was run 2-2-2-4 AL buried from the meter box with a 100 A breaker to the garage with a 100A panel box with another main breaker and various individual circuit breakers. I have a separate 240v circuits for heat, welder, and air compressor as well as several 120v circuits. So I would say a 100 amp panel box with a main breaker should work fine. BTW, I just had mine inspected and it passed w/ no problems. YMMV.

 

[Norcal]

I just finished getting power to my detached 16x28. What I did was run 2-2-2-4 AL buried from the meter box with a 100 A breaker to the garage with a 100A panel box with another main breaker and various individual circuit breakers. I have a separate 240v circuits for heat, welder, and air compressor as well as several 120v circuits. So I would say a 100 amp panel box with a main breaker should work fine. BTW, I just had mine inspected and it passed w/ no problems. YMMV.

Here we go again............ 2 AWG AL is not suitable for 100A a feed to a garage does not meet the criteria in the NEC to undersize the feed, if 2 AWG AL is used 90 ampere max fuses or circuit breaker must be used.

 

[-JP]

BTW, I just had mine inspected and it passed w/ no problems. YMMV.

Sounds like you had the typical building inspector show up that does not have a clue what he is looking at when it comes to the electrical system.

Makes you wonder what else he missed???

JP

 

[sberry]

Back in the day they did allow it, might be in the sticks where its still under an old code? Personally its not an issue I would lose much sleep over. Chances of overloading that wire from a common garage without some specialty equipment is little to none.
I have put this same wire in garages, probably dozens of them, usually on a 60 brkr cause its cheap and never had a call back due to trips. A couple of them fairly busy places.

 

[gatchel]

Sounds like you had the typical building inspector show up that does not have a clue what he is looking at when it comes to the electrical system.

Makes you wonder what else he missed???

JP

Maybe 5lima30 could call his inspector back, tell him he ***** because of what he missed, and get the guy to issue him a refund to pay another "better" inspector.

My inspector passed the same thing, 2-2-2-4 with 100A breaker, I should probably do the same thing?

Why is this always such an issue? I understand what the code allows, I have read it with my own two eyes. But, every electrician I could ever get in to a conversation with, every inspector I called locally to ask about this (3 of them, different companies), all seem to think that this is not really an issue.

I am not trying to be difficult, but it seems that a lot of people, DIY'ers, inspectors, and electricians have used 2-2-2-4 with a 100A breaker at the Main panel without issue. I have yet to find the post that says "That extra 10 Amps burned down my house and garage...

-JP, this is not a personal attack on you, but I really don't get it.
There must be a lot of ****** electrical tradesmen out there I guess.

 

[mrb]

There must be a lot of ****** electrical tradesmen out there I guess.

there absolutely are.

here is the biggest thing most people miss with regard to inspectors and inspection. The inspectors are NOT there to make sure your installation is 100% code compliant and properly performed (or do tell you how to do it if you dont know what youre doing). It is the responsibility of the party performing the work to do it in a code compliant manner. The inspectors are there to make sure the work matches the plans and scope of the permit, and to give the work a cursory review for code compliance.

 

[ddawg16]

there absolutely are.

here is the biggest thing most people miss with regard to inspectors and inspection. The inspectors are NOT there to make sure your installation is 100% code compliant and properly performed (or do tell you how to do it if you dont know what youre doing). It is the responsibility of the party performing the work to do it in a code compliant manner. The inspectors are there to make sure the work matches the plans and scope of the permit, and to give the work a cursory review for code compliance.

Absolutly correct....they do try to catch the obvious stuff.....

Something to remember.....electrical standards have changed over the years....as we learn more, we improve the system. What was done 50 years ago would not pass now....

Now we have things like UFER grounds, GFC, etc. Was the stuff from 50 years ago all wrong? Not really....but there are better ways. As long as there continue to be electrical fires....they will continue to improve the systems.

So....put in a 90A breaker.......it just means you can't crank up the music as loud while running the saw.....

 

[Norcal]

#2 AWG AL was never code compliant for a 100A subfeed, a note in article 310 (note #3) 1st appeared in the 1978 NEC, allowing conductors for a 3-wire single phase service to be undersized when carrying the total current supplied by that service, which means it's just plain wrong when used for feeders for detached structures & subpanels within the dwelling, prior to the 1978 edition there was no note allowing such practices.

Note: checked 1965,----, 1971,1975,1978 editions of the NEC to find it. (----, means a gap in my collection so unable to check).

 

[-JP]

Why is this always such an issue? I understand what the code allows, I have read it with my own two eyes. But, every electrician I could ever get in to a conversation with, every inspector I called locally to ask about this (3 of them, different companies), all seem to think that this is not really an issue.

I think you answered your own question and made my point.

You say your aware of the minimum NEC requirements but chose to install material that does not comply. You must be more knowledgeable and experienced than all the hundreds of individuals that make up the multiple committees at NFPA that are responsible for maintaining the years of research used for updating and publishing the NEC. You should let the NFPA know they have made a mistake because you have talked to every electrician and home inspector in your area and they all said they don't see an issue with your installation.

I would say the folks you talked to may claim to be capable but I would say they fall right into the group I described as incompetent based upon the response they gave you.

The NEC as written is the MINIMUM safe methods required for an electrical system. I always smile a bit when someone says they built their system "per the code book". That tells me they have the cheapest electrical system possible. I don't like cheap, especially when it comes to the one system in a building that can turn all your time, money, and efforts into ashes and possible kill someone. I understand some have budgets to keep but a little extra can go a long way on improving the quality of an electrical system.

A final note on inspections...The local AHJ has the responsibility to confirm the installation is code compliant not just for your use but also for the future property owners of the building.
When you install a under sized circuit, are you going to tell the potential purchaser of your building to be careful and don't overload that circuit because the breaker is not rated properly?
How about the guy who back-feeds his panelboard with a generator and decides not to use a transfer switch...Is he going to tell the next home owner to make sure he opens the service main before starting the generator or else a lineman could be killed? This is why permits and inspections are required.

JP

 

[ket-tek]

I don't believe you can have two meters for the same address.

I'm sure power companies vary from state to state. But the power companies around me are glad to sell you service and install the equipment for you to buy as much power as you want. Very common to have multiple meters on a single property in my state. They just set up a second account at the address and it comes on a separate bill for each meter.. They will do it for garages, in-law suites/pool houses, barns, rental homes split into two upstairs/downstairs rental units, etc..

 

[gatchel]

I think you answered your own question and made my point.

JP

I get exactly what you are saying. What I am trying to say is that someone has to be held accountable for the poor "quality" of these type of inspectons and installations. The NEC and the NFPA don't mean a damn thing if the information they provide is not being used and enforced by the local inspectors.

If a state or AHJ allows a homeowner, like myself, to do their own electrical work then who is liable when something does happen. I pulled the permits, had the inspection, and it passed the rough and final?

This is what boggles me. That's all.


Thank you for not slamming me too hard and gently getting the point across.

Also, I really didn't think about the whole "future user" issue that may come up. I just figured I will probably die in this house. And it would not be an issue because I am "in the know" about pulling 100A constantly on the sub panel.

I will be changing out my breaker to a 90A or less model.Thank you again for you valued feedback

 

[mrb]

I get exactly what you are saying. What I am trying to say is that someone has to be held accountable for the poor "quality" of these type of inspectons and installations. The NEC and the NFPA don't mean a damn thing if the information they provide is not being used and enforced by the local inspectors.

If a state or AHJ allows a homeowner, like myself, to do their own electrical work then who is liable when something does happen. I pulled the permits, had the inspection, and it passed the rough and final?

This is what boggles me. That's all.


Thank you for not slamming me too hard and gently getting the point across.

Also, I really didn't think about the whole "future user" issue that may come up. I just figured I will probably die in this house. And it would not be an issue because I am "in the know" about pulling 100A constantly on the sub panel.

I will be changing out my breaker to a 90A or less model.Thank you again for you valued feedback

who's liable? the person who did the work -thats who.

where you say "The NEC and the NFPA don't mean a damn thing if the information they provide is not being used and enforced by the local inspectors."

should really read 'dont mean a thing if the people performing the work dont do it in a code compliant manner'

 

[gatchel]

I guess it's all based on your perspective. IMHO (which means absolutely nothing), there is no point to having an inspection if the person doing the inspection is not knowledgeable and the person doing the work is ultimately liable. In my experiance locally, the inspectors don't have the knowledge to accurately inspect the work. Proven by this thread and others like it.

Yet another waste of money for poor quality work, or a sticker on a panel, that is mandatory.


If the speed limit is 55 mph and you know the police never pull any people over for exceeding it, do you think eveyone is going to follow the speed limit? Maybe a few GJ members but the majority will be going faster than 55mph.

I apologize to the OP for adding and/or totally hijacking this thread. It's question that often comes up here and gets debated and corrected.


Edit: I read the sticker on my final inspection on the panel. Basically it says no warranty or gurantee implied. Shame on me for thinking that the inspector had some legitimate claim to the $160 he charged me for basically 5 minutes of work x2. This stuff pisses me off...

 

[ToddyB]

I have wired detached garages in my area where the utility allows a separate service. It is a separate building, NEC does not know addresses. In many instances it is the best solution as the house service cannot properly support the upgrade due to size or age service equipment.

 

[mrb]

I have wired detached garages in my area where the utility allows a separate service. It is a separate building, NEC does not know addresses. In many instances it is the best solution as the house service cannot properly support the upgrade due to size or age service equipment.

yeah but some (many) power companies will not install multiple services on the same parcel if residential.

 

[ToddyB]

yeah but some (many) power companies will not install multiple services on the same parcel if residential.

True; I was kinda surprised the first time they let me do it. I meant to add the OP needs to check with the utility and /or AHJ.