Powerline network not working in shop

[rattle_snake]

I installed a TP link AV500 powerline network in my home some time ago and it works OK given the crappy DSL service (~5MBPS) I have. I then added a port out in my shop with wifi and it appeared to work. It supports an Acurite weather station hub, at times.

I've got some more equipment that needs connectivity so I am trying to trouble shoot the system. I have multiple laptops, powerline ports and did an array of tests. Long story short, things work fine in my home and attached garage, but not in my shop. In the home I get 'full speed' (no degradation) though the powerline network.

The shop is wired to house main panel. It is 220v service so both 'legs' go to shop. Given how the system works I should have signal on the leg that also feeds the office where the router is. The total shop feeder wiring is of similar distance to that of other rooms in the home that have functional powerline ports (less than 100').

At times, I can get connected to the network, but speeds are very low, in the 0.1 MBPS range, on either leg. I've tried different circuits in the shop, and moved breakers around.

The shop has all GCFI outlets. Manufacturer says don't. So I bypassed the GCFI on one circuit. No change. I tried the GCFI outlets on the garage and they work fine.

Wiring to shop is like this:
Main panel
80' #8 wire to jbox
10' #8 underground into shop
Shop sub panel
outlet curcuit, 10'

What to try next?

 

[American Locomotive]

That seems like an awful lot of connections and wiring for a powerline Ethernet system to be happy.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

If uou have line of sight Switch to a wireless P2P bridge using ubiquiti NSM5

I can help with setup.

Locos should be strong enough for that distance.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004...words=nsm5&dpPl=1&dpID=41b1GDTOdrL&ref=plSrch

 

[rattle_snake]

That seems like an awful lot of connections and wiring for a powerline Ethernet system to be happy.

Agreed...
'Happy' in my case is only 5mbps not 50 or 100.

However a typical outlet in a room is daisy chained on a given circuit, and can be a similar number or more connections/wire length depending on how far down the chain it is. Lots of reflections at the frequencies the magic happens at.

If uou have line of sight Switch to a wireless P2P bridge using ubiquiti NSM5

I can help with setup.

Locos should be strong enough for that distance.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004...words=nsm5&dpPl=1&dpID=41b1GDTOdrL&ref=plSrch

My shop is 6' from my home. If I can't get the PLC working a wireless bridge is next option. Thanks.

 

[penusai]

You can put the below in AP mode:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06XJMFDRP/?tag=atomicindus08-20

May be overkill for your setup and Internet speed.

I have the RBK50.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01K4CZOBS/?tag=atomicindus08-20

You can use wire devices straight to the Router or Satellit

 

[couch67]

I don't have any experience with powerline ethernet but do remember having issues back in the day with X10 which is powerline carrier.

One thing X10 had trouble with is cheap PC power supplies. The supply would act as a shunt for X10 and would not allow transmission on the hot leg of whatever the pc was plugged into.

You could quickly try this by unplugging any PCs and give it a go.

 

[JazzBlueRT]

I installed a TP link AV500 powerline network in my home some time ago and it works OK given the crappy DSL service (~5MBPS) I have. I then added a port out in my shop with wifi and it appeared to work. It supports an Acurite weather station hub, at times.

I've got some more equipment that needs connectivity so I am trying to trouble shoot the system. I have multiple laptops, powerline ports and did an array of tests. Long story short, things work fine in my home and attached garage, but not in my shop. In the home I get 'full speed' (no degradation) though the powerline network.

The shop is wired to house main panel. It is 220v service so both 'legs' go to shop. Given how the system works I should have signal on the leg that also feeds the office where the router is. The total shop feeder wiring is of similar distance to that of other rooms in the home that have functional powerline ports (less than 100').

At times, I can get connected to the network, but speeds are very low, in the 0.1 MBPS range, on either leg. I've tried different circuits in the shop, and moved breakers around.

The shop has all GCFI outlets. Manufacturer says don't. So I bypassed the GCFI on one circuit. No change. I tried the GCFI outlets on the garage and they work fine.

Wiring to shop is like this:
Main panel
80' #8 wire to jbox
10' #8 underground into shop
Shop sub panel
outlet curcuit, 10'

What to try next?

I have the same adapters and series. Mine came with a 4 port receiver.

The power-line adapters really only work when the outlets are all on the same circuit. When you cross a breaker, GFCI, power strip or UPS performance degrades substantially. When you are crossing two breakers, you will get pathetic performance if it even works. I am surprised the receivers even synced up.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

If its just 6', why not bury some conduit and outdoor rated CAT6 and be done with it?

Or do overhead?

 

[APEowner]

I confess I don't know the physics behind it but I've seen problems before with power-line adapters not working through sub panels. In fact, I've never had it work.

 

[JazzBlueRT]

I confess I don't know the physics behind it but I've seen problems before with power-line adapters not working through sub panels. In fact, I've never had it work.

Data transfers require unbroken wires.

 

[mooseracing]

If its just 6', why not bury some conduit and outdoor rated CAT6 and be done with it?

Depending on where you live they only last a few years underground without conduit.

I have run the TP link and the D Link Powerline adapters out to my barn. This is in a turn of the century farm house. The wire went from the main out to an overhead service line that ran to the barn and into a breaker panel, then to the outlets. I had constant connectivity, just not the fastest. This was about 150ft run.

I played around moving them form outlet to outlet on different breakers as I needed a little more speed because they ran my security cameras. I do get some garbage once and awhile but that is because of the adapters protocols.

 

[ishiboo]

Data transfers require unbroken wires.

So does electricity. At least for the most part.

 

[ForceFed70]

So does electricity. At least for the most part.

I think this is more a matter of total circuit length. Household wiring was not ment for high frequency. Signal degradation occurs quickly as a result. There's a reason wiring ment for data (Ethernet or Coax) is so different from standard household wiring.

 

[finn]

Mine works when connected to the outlet immediately next to the sub panel, but not further down the daisy chain.

I didn’t spend the time to investigate or check other circuits.

I was just happy to have something that works.

 

[JazzBlueRT]

So does electricity. At least for the most part.

Electricity does not request a re-transmit if it is missing a few electrons

 

[APEowner]

Data transfers require unbroken wires.

sarcasm/ Thanks for that insightful technical comment. I appreciation your taking the time to type that up. /end sarcasm

 

[ard]

I had a neighbor that hired my son to 'fix his network, recommend signal boosters'

He had trouble with wifi....

Turns out, in his 2800ft house he had one AP and three wifi boosters.

My son disconnected two, then separated the frequencies as much as possible on the remaining two wifi APs. Boom. Full speed, full bars, etc

So I am wondering of multiple "powerline taps' could effectively be causing data loss and collisions...

Just a wag, have only used X10 in terms of powerline experience- which is very low data speeds

 

[Damon L.]

I had a similar problem with the TPlink powerline setup to my shop. I could get a connection, but it would drop out frequently and I would need to reset everything.

The solution in my case was to pull an ethernet cable out there. I did this because there was conduit running underground already (current power feed, but I am going to have a new feed run soon). IF I didn't have that option, the UBNT stuff would have been my next choice.

 

[rattle_snake]

I did some more tests and got things figured out.

One piece of data throughout my experiments that bugged me was that regardless of location/download speed, the uplink was consistent at a blazing 1MBPS. This points to noise injection at the receiving end (as mentioned by couch67)

For SAGs I tested a port out in my barn. It works fine and has no speed degradation. The barn is 250' away from main panel, has it's own sub panel, and the circuit I tested is on a GCFI. It also has another 100' of wiring after the outlet I used.

So for MY USE CASE (low speed)....
Can another branch circuit be used? yes.
Is 100' too long? No.
250'? Works fine.
Sub panel a problem? No.
GCFI? Works fine.

Keep in mind that I'm only asking for ~5% of the expected performance. Most of the data packets can have bit and/or checksum errors, get discarded and it still provide speeds better than my DSL service.

I realized I had tested only 3 of the 4 circuit in the shop. I tried the dedicated 2 post lift branch and it works fine. It's on the same leg as the branch the port has been on for a year, that is working poorly. I also tested the speed of the wifi that is on this adapter (TL-WPA4220) and it is about 1/2 or less of the wired port, but enough to stream video.

On the lift branch I tried turning off other noise sources/branches in the building so see if they had any effect;
22 Florescent light fixtures? No change.
Shut down every breaker but lift? No change.
So the power line system seems fairly tolerant of circuit branches and resulting reflections that would cripple high speed controlled impedance connections.

So went back to my 'target' branch circuit in the shop and started isolating equipment/power supplies to try to determine the noise source(s). The laptop supply has the largest impact, but it is really the combination off all the equipment that degrades the signal to unusable levels. The result of unplugging one item is within the uncertainty of measurement repeatability.

But I would really like to have all this stuff in one area all plugged in at the same spot... I have a few options including the wifi, noise filters and creative wiring techniques.

 

[couch67]

the solution to the X10 problem is to plug the offending device(s) into a noise blocker. basically a choke that blocks the x10 signal from going into the device.

x10 uses a carrier frequency of 120khz. The powerline carrier likely in that domain or higher, so its possible that an off the shelf x10 blocker would work for you.

couch