Powermatic vs Sawstop table saw. Need input.

[Mr. Wonderful]

Looking at a new table saw for the shop. Not a home shop. Currently I have a Delta unisaw. The Delta was a nice saw but the fence system didn't hold up and I'm just done with it. I replaced it three times. I am looking at the 5hp 240v single phase cabinet saw from each. I'm looking for any specific pro or con to each. Cost is not one that I am concerned with. I am aware of the safety edge of the Sawstop but I'm not giving that a significant amount of sway. I've been in the trades almost 20 years and I know how to safely use a table saw. I am looking for the best quality saw of the two. Any specific points to either one one would be greatly appreciated.

 

[tarbellb]

Best quality, skip Powermatic!

They are just a name these days with little to no innovation or build quality to substantiate them from the pack. Not what they used to be (40yrs ago...)

Jump over to Grizzly to get way more for your money, go look up European brands like SCM (Minimax), Felder and others. Both these routes will yield much more saw then whatever Powermatics lazy nameplate is offering.


Sawstop is a good table saw with the BEST safety features, and have a proven track record in a production environment. Its a easy choice if you dont fall into the legal bs rabbit hole

Good luck

 

[fromthebasement]

Please don't discount the safety features of the Sawstop. I don't wanna be that guy, but many accidents happen with folks who have a lot of experience and are just fatigued or making a ton of repetitive cuts and/or just let their minds wander for a split second. It could happen to anybody, even those who really know their way around a table saw.

That said, I've had a bit more experience with Sawstop than other brands and found it easily capable of everything I've asked of it. It's a darned good table saw, especially the size you're looking at.

 

[Mr. Wonderful]

Best quality, skip Powermatic!

They are just a name these days with little to no innovation or build quality to substantiate them from the pack. Not what they used to be (40yrs ago...)

Jump over to Grizzly to get way more for your money, go look up European brands like SCM (Minimax), Felder and others. Both these routes will yield much more saw then whatever Powermatics lazy nameplate is offering.


Sawstop is a good table saw with the BEST safety features, and have a proven track record in a production environment. Its a easy choice if you dont fall into the legal bs rabbit hole

Good luck

I guess I should have led with the fact that I have a somewhat limited manufacturer choice. I have the top of the line Grizzly jump saw in the shop now. It's a good saw but the fit and finish is really lacking as is some of the hardware quality. I have Powermatic in the 24" bandsaw and panel saw both seem top notch to me but are about eight years old. By far my biggest problem with the Delta is it seems flimsy in the fence area. I have to be careful not to knock a sheet of plywood into it. Now I am not doing intricate work, mostly production of wood containers etc. I need a saw that can stay on measurement and square for dozens of sheets of 3/4" plywood at a time.

The Powermatic did seem simplistic to me but very solidly built. I was not aware they had fallen behind the competition. Thanks for the input!

 

[Mr. Wonderful]

Please don't discount the safety features of the Sawstop. I don't wanna be that guy, but many accidents happen with folks who have a lot of experience and are just fatigued or making a ton of repetitive cuts and/or just let their minds wander for a split second. It could happen to anybody, even those who really know their way around a table saw.

That said, I've had a bit more experience with Sawstop than other brands and found it easily capable of everything I've asked of it. It's a darned good table saw, especially the size you're looking at.

I did not mean to say that I discounted the safety features of the Sawstop. I only mean to say I won't sacrifice durability and accuracy to get it. Now if I was a high school shop teacher it wouldn't even be a contest! Thanks for the input!

 

[dnschmidt]

If you're going to go big go Sliding Table Saw. Many excellent choices including Felder and SCM. If you're a real high roller Altendorf or Martin. The entire European Union has a grudge against conventional table saws due to safety reasons that's why sliders are the tools of choice in Europe. I personally agree with that position. A Hammer slider can be obtained for little more than a SawStop and as far as I'm concerned is much safer simply do to the design of a slider.

 

[RTM]

Buddy of mine was looking a few years ago, looked at several brand new models at a dealer, including the Sawstop. The SS table was not flat, with a big dip in the area (I think) left front of the blade. Checked a floor model, and the one in a box that they opened. Similar result with one other highly recommended new saw, not flat (Maybe Grizzly or Laguna?) Keep that in mind as you go looking, and see how they explain it away.

He bought a vintage saw for many less dollars, and is thrilled

 

[Renegade1LI]

I would consider the powermatic, 5hp but with a power stock feeder. Adding a power feeder, which you may already have, adds both safety and accuracy. I have a feeder on my table saw and shaper, covers the blade and gives a much better cut.

 

[PoorUB]

Why not buy some aftermarket fence for the Unisaw?

 

[rsanter]

What fence do you have on that delta?
How about replace the fence or build your own

I have a VEGA and beismeyer fence and like them both.
I also have the unifence and that thing is pretty nice.

 

[tarbellb]

If you are doing mainly sheet goods

GET A SLIDDER!

better accuracy and it will save your back

 

[Plastikosmd]

Hammer TS (if u are still looking)

Ripping 0.043” x6’ strips without issue
They are thin enough to see light though

 

[ez-duzit]

Avoid Grizzly; it is third tier at best.

Beismeyer fence for the Unisaw or Powermatic.

Not familiar with Hammer.

 

[tyyost]

I’m with the slider guys, if you need an industrial 5hp saw you’re already into slider $$$, you might as well go big. the guys over at sawmill creek are all over these like the posters above. Like said above - school shop and sawstop are a match made in heaven, but for pro woodworking there are other options that make sense.

 

[Lt CHEG]

I have a 3hp 240 volt Sawstop Professional cabinet saw and I love it. The quality is excellent. Comparing the Sawstop to a comparable Powermatic at the local Woodcraft where I bought my saw, I felt the quality of the Sawstop was actually better than the Powermatic. The blade lift and tilt both felt smoother on the Sawstop than the Powermatic. The accuracy is great. Personally I don’t think that anyone gives up anything in the quality department in order to gain the features that only Sawstop offers. For me between the 2 choices initially proposed, it‘s Sawstop for me, no question. If you up the options to include something like Felder or Hammer sliders then that includes a whole different set of considerations, including definitely higher cost.

 

[Plastikosmd]

Ez:

Felder/Hammer are high end Austrian machines, though easily bought here
Hammer is the more affordable line.

Shipped to your door

Mine is a combo saw/shaper

My unisaw was adequate, this is a dream
The European saws are set up a bit different than the classic American cabinet saw. (Some prefer, others don’t.)

 

[Mr. Wonderful]

If you're going to go big go Sliding Table Saw. Many excellent choices including Felder and SCM. If you're a real high roller Altendorf or Martin. The entire European Union has a grudge against conventional table saws due to safety reasons that's why sliders are the tools of choice in Europe. I personally agree with that position. A Hammer slider can be obtained for little more than a SawStop and as far as I'm concerned is much safer simply do to the design of a slider.

Why not buy some aftermarket fence for the Unisaw?

What fence do you have on that delta?
How about replace the fence or build your own

I have a VEGA and beismeyer fence and like them both.
I also have the unifence and that thing is pretty nice.

I appreciate all the input. A few things I need to address. I don't cut sheet goods exclusively. I don't think a slider would be ideal for me. I have to rip dimensional lumber as well. I frequently have to make many of the same item repetitively but the majority of the time I am making one off items. The unisaw has the beismeyer fence on it. It worked ok for the first few years. It began to slip as I made repetitive cuts. I have replaced the fence twice now and it doesn't hold for more than a year or two. I have to put a clamp next to it every time. It does not seem to hold square either. I know many of you have had great luck with that fence system and I was thinking it was top of the line when I got it. I am just done with it and the saw.

 

[tarbellb]

Avoid Grizzly; it is third tier at best.

Beismeyer fence for the Unisaw or Powermatic.

Not familiar with Hammer.

If you dont know what a Hammer is, then you dont even know all the tiers
-----------------
Grizzly, Delta, Powermatic = all made in Asia / 2 charge MiUSA prices / 1 offers more then just homeowner grade table saws


Again, Powermatic was likely the best home gamer brand for a few decades (60's to 80's), since then they have been farmed out to Asia, lowered the QC, and charged the same or more. I have run plenty of their older and newer machines, the old stuff was nice, the new stuff has plenty of competition.

 

[Packard V8]

I appreciate all the input. A few things I need to address. I don't cut sheet goods exclusively. I don't think a slider would be ideal for me. I have to rip dimensional lumber as well. I frequently have to make many of the same item repetitively but the majority of the time I am making one off items. The unisaw has the beismeyer fence on it. It worked ok for the first few years. It began to slip as I made repetitive cuts. I have replaced the fence twice now and it doesn't hold for more than a year or two. I have to put a clamp next to it every time. It does not seem to hold square either. I know many of you have had great luck with that fence system and I was thinking it was top of the line when I got it. I am just done with it and the saw.

FWIW, I've been in and around woodworking for sixty years and you are the first person I've ever heard having those problems with those parts. But, if you're done with them, we can't argue you shouldn't move on.

jack vines

 

[Renegade1LI]

In order to get good repetitive cuts from a cabinet saw you really need to use a power feeder. You just can't push wood through by hand and be consistent, feather boards help but a pf is more accurate. I would think adding a power feeder to any of the saws mentioned would yield similar results. I would try this on your unisaw before getting another saw.

 

[seber]

You are not going to find a more rugged fence than Biesemeyer. If that isn't working you need to address your methods, not your saw. There are a lot of aftermarket fences that are better than Grizzly or Sawstop, but they are not better than what you have. Personally, I prefer the Unifence but I don't think it is any more rugged than Biesemeyer.

 

[tyyost]

Sliders will rip dimensional lumber all day long, you need to do some research. I was a traditional guy, and still am in my shop, but if I was dropping the coin you are talking about I’d buy a euro style slider in a heartbeat.

As far as the fences we beat our bies fences day in and out and the cam locks needed a tuneup from time to time, but they were solid. If you rip large dimensional stock, you may want to look at fences that are center mounted if the t squares are wearing out on you.

 

[Plastikosmd]

If ripping is wearing the equipment that much, I would add a panel saw on one wall

 

[jar944]

What are you ripping? If you wore out a regular cabinet saw, maybe a SLR would be better.

 

[Mr. Wonderful]

If ripping is wearing the equipment that much, I would add a panel saw on one wall

Already have a panel saw

 

[Mr. Wonderful]

I appreciate all the input but I'm just not doing a slider. Power feed just isn't needed. I'm not hard on the fence, I don't bang sheets into it. I really thought we were getting a top notch saw and I was pleased with it at first. I would not say I do nearly enough cuts on it to wear out one fence in this amount of time let alone be on the third one. I can agree that there is the possibility that my saw has some sort of defect in the fence system. I would be open to the new saw having the same fence on it. This saw has had a couple other issues in the past that have been resolved. I am just not willing to go on using a clamp on an inaccurate fence.

It sounds like I have more members vouching personally for the Sawstop at this point. I looked at the vendors that I have available and there is also Jet. Is that another company that isn't up to what it used to be?

 

[seber]

I think Jet has an undeserved reputation. In my opinion it never was what it used to be.

 

[Lt CHEG]

It sounds like I have more members vouching personally for the Sawstop at this point. I looked at the vendors that I have available and there is also Jet. Is that another company that isn't up to what it used to be?

Jet is actually the same parent company as Powermatic. Generally the Powermatic line is the more premium product. Also I know some people are insinuating that Powermatic isn’t that great, but even though I bought a SawStop cabinet saw, I’m quite happy with my Powermatic helical head jointer and bandsaw. I think they’re great, high quality items, I just think as far as tablesaws go, the SawStop is even better.

 

[tarbellb]

Your fence uses a simple cam lock design. Which typically is easy to tune to desired locking strength, and also can be modified if inclined.

There are 10s of thousands of woodworkers that say the fence is up to your task, so maybe revisit exactly what you are doing or the job requirements?


Buying basically the exact same saw in a different flavor isnt likely to yield better results- Whats your budget?


What is it about a slider that you dont like, just unfamiliar or other constraints. Watch video or two with how they operate, may change your mind.

And YES, JET is definitely over rated

 

[jar944]

The fence should be identical between all your listed options. They are all biesemeyer or clones.

What is the issue with the 3 fences you have replaced?

 

[Mr. Wonderful]

The fence should be identical between all your listed options. They are all biesemeyer or clones.

What is the issue with the 3 fences you have replaced?

they have all stopped clamping with enough force to hold for repetitive cuts. The saw is about ten years old and has seen a decent amount of use. Ripping a 1x10 into 2" strips the fourth piece is about a quarter inch wider at one end even if I clamp down the base of the fence. I know the two screws on the face of the fence can adjust for square. The problem is I am almost out of adjustment. None of the fences have ever taken a hit or been abused.

 

[jar944]

If you dont know what a Hammer is, then you dont even know all the tiers
-----------------
Grizzly, Delta, Powermatic = all made in Asia / 2 charge MiUSA prices / 1 offers more then just homeowner grade table saws


Again, Powermatic was likely the best home gamer brand for a few decades (60's to 80's), since then they have been farmed out to Asia, lowered the QC, and charged the same or more. I have run plenty of their older and newer machines, the old stuff was nice, the new stuff has plenty of competition.

Some of Powermatic was USA made and assembled (at least the pm66) through the early 2000s.

Tiers are going to be subjective but all the eastern imports are generally the same tier.

Martin and Bauerle, maybe Altendorf would be top teir, SCMi, Casolin, Casadei and Felder depending on who you agree with for the second tier.

 

[jar944]

they have all stopped clamping with enough force to hold for repetitive cuts. The saw is about ten years old and has seen a decent amount of use. Ripping a 1x10 into 2" strips the fourth piece is about a quarter inch wider at one end even if I clamp down the base of the fence. I know the two screws on the face of the fence can adjust for square. The problem is I am almost out of adjustment. None of the fences have ever taken a hit or been abused.

They all will do that as the pads wear. I had a original biesemeyer that needed a folded section of cardboard between the cam and rail to lock. You can replace the sliders or shim them out.

 

[RTM]

The JET industrial line was said to be a much better set of equipment than their consumer grade stuff. Buddy who used one in a WW shop explained to me way back when. I never knew there was a difference.

 

[Mr. Wonderful]

They all will do that as the pads wear. I had a original biesemeyer that needed a folded section of cardboard between the cam and rail to lock. You can replace the sliders or shim them out.

ya, I'm aware of that. I just dont want to have to keep doing that.

 

[jar944]

ya, I'm aware of that. I just dont want to have to keep doing that.

They are all built the same, so changing saws won't make a difference.

 

[tyyost]

It sounds like you had your mind set before you posted, and SawStop saws have good reputations. The Hammer K3 is a hybrid slider with a robust non T square fence, and would be my choice in the 5-6k price range we are talking about.

You seem to be very down on the current fence system you have, and the sawstop is a similar design with the same likely downfalls once you put some wear on it. If I was in you position and the sawstop safety feature wasn’t critical I’d be looking at an older Oliver or Northfield saw. The fences on those were robust and they were just about unstoppable.

 

[rsanter]

I think you need to inspect the beismeyer fence you have and see what some of the potential issues are.
Beismeyer is a good fence system but I can see some shortcomings that is has based on trying to make an economical product.
Depending on your issue with it you may be able to make a close of it that is super duty.
years ago a friend and I built some beismeyer clones and they are not that hard to make.

You can start with the rail on the front of the table saw, use a thicker tube as I can see after many many times of hard clamping the tube could collapse a bit.

At the same time you can use thicker material on the fence rail as well as the front angle iron piece.

For the squaring adjustment you could go to twin adjusting screws so there is more contact area behind the tabs

Next, please done turn your back on all saws with the sliding table feature. All of them that I have seen will allow you to lock the table in place and use it like a “regular” table saw. However some of those commercial duty saws are amazingly heavy duty and will make a powermatic or delta look like a toy

Next again
Powermatic and delta both made 12”/14” table saws. They are really for commercial use and not for the home user. I have owned a couple of them that I bought with a lot of other tools and flipped them. They were amazingly heavy duty machines meant for constant use. With this option you may have to source or build your own fence unlessthe saw comes with a good one that will work for you

 

[jar944]

You can always upgrade to a tigerstop fence..

TigerFence™ - TigerStop Best in class

TigerFence brings speed, precision, and productivity to your table saw. With highly accurate automation that can be controlled from one side of the fence.

www.tigerstop.com

 

[Mr. Wonderful]

I realize that I have left out a rather critical piece of information. This is going in a government facility. Modifications are frowned upon. I only have one source to chose my model from. The bean counters wont let me have cart blanche. The source we have does not carry sliding table saws. I would have considered it if it were an option but I still don't think I need one. I tried my absolute best to get that Tigerfence for my table saw and miter saw. The rep I talked to was great and it seems like a fantastic product but we were not able to get the finance people to buy from them so I'm stuck with limited options.

I appreciate all the input. If I had thought to include that information I could have saved some from offering options that are not available to me.